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Marvel Cinematic Universe | We had a good run, and now it's over
- Thread starter Deleted member 1248
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Definitely couldn't be live-action, as Sony has the rights to live-action Spider-Man tv. Not sure about animated (less than 44 min/episode per the contract) if they wanted to go that route.
When did Disney give them the rights for live action Spidey shows? Was it part of the deal back then when they Sony agreed to collab with Marvel Studios back then?
From the leaked contracts available back in the Sony hack, it showed that in the original contract for Spider-Man's film rights it also includes live-action television. Sony has said they are currently developing some live-action Spidey shows so that doesn't appear to have changed. Bummer, because I think Spider-Man has so many day-to-day stories to tell that he would be perfect for a Disney+ style series.
I'm not talking about an official statement, I'm wondering if there's anything going on with Feige behind the scenes. Is he pissed about his long term plans being fucked up? Is he trying to put any pressure on Marvel to reach an agreement? Is he just staying out of it completely?
It happened in Ultimate Spider-Man comics, maybe Avi Arad have a thing for female symbiote. We got female Venom after all
Sony said they're going to announce their partner soon for their Spider-Man TV series and that Disney+ is of course a possibility but not necessarily guaranteed.
It's probably going to grate Iger if Spider-Man shows end up on HBO Max or Netflix.
Now that all three trades have chimed in with their own behind-the-scenes takes, after reading all of them this is how I think things went down:
1.) At some point this year, Sony and Marvel sat down to start renegotiate their deal. It was always gonna end after Far From Home, and there would have been no rush to do it before now.
2.) Disney starts by asking for half of the profits as a co-production with co-financing, and Sony starts by offering 5% without co-financing. This is basically what the Deadline article says. Through negotiations, we get to the point where Disney has come down from 50% to 30% (as per THR) and Sony has agreed to co-financing and gone as high as 25% (as per Variety).
3.) At this point, they're close enough to start talking about other things. Things like the fact that Sony really wants to do a Holland/Hardy movie somehow (whether it's officially a Venom movie or a Spidey movie probably doesn't matter to them). Like bringing on Feige to help with the spin-offs. Like Disney probably wanting Sony to slow down on said spin-offs so as not to fuck up the brand, and wanting to get a cut from said spin-offs that do happen.
4.) At some point over the last 2 months, Disney walked away from negotiations. Variety is very clear on this, and the other two trades don't contradict them. Deadline did at first when they broke the story and said that Sony never responded to the first 50/50 offer, but they went back and stealth edited that out of the story. What we don't know is why Disney walked. Variety offers up that it might just have been about the money, or it might have been because after Dark Phoenix bombed, one of the people above Feige at Disney wanted him to fully be working on Disney stuff to make sure that the transition of the Fox properties goes smoothly. But Disney is the one that ends negotiations, not Sony.
5.) Someone leaks the breakdown of negotiations to the press. No one is really clear on who started the leaking, but once the leak is out there, things blow up, probably bigger than whichever company that leaked anticipated. Sony puts out that statement, in an attempt to make it clear that Disney is the one that stopped talking and that they're willing to negotiate. And both sides start talking to the press, trying to get their full side of the story out there. Variety actually hints that the leak is a negotiation tactic from Sony not necessarily to get public opinion on their side (in which case it backfired, tremendously), but to get Disney back to the table at all after they'd left. But right now we have Sony and Disney basically airing out their negotiating points in public instead of actually talking to each other about them, and Sony publicly saying the deal is dead but they're willing to come back while Disney says nothing (which can only really last until this weekend, as they're gonna have to say something to the press about it at D23).
At this point, nothing is set in stone, and everyone can come back to the table at any point before another Spider-Man movie goes into full production. But it'll take both sides getting over whatever hurt feelings and bruised egos may have happened over the past few days/months and hammering out a deal that it doesn't really seem like they were that far apart on. Because if they don't, both sides are probably leaving $100M+ on the table (though Sony needs that money more than Disney does).
1.) At some point this year, Sony and Marvel sat down to start renegotiate their deal. It was always gonna end after Far From Home, and there would have been no rush to do it before now.
2.) Disney starts by asking for half of the profits as a co-production with co-financing, and Sony starts by offering 5% without co-financing. This is basically what the Deadline article says. Through negotiations, we get to the point where Disney has come down from 50% to 30% (as per THR) and Sony has agreed to co-financing and gone as high as 25% (as per Variety).
3.) At this point, they're close enough to start talking about other things. Things like the fact that Sony really wants to do a Holland/Hardy movie somehow (whether it's officially a Venom movie or a Spidey movie probably doesn't matter to them). Like bringing on Feige to help with the spin-offs. Like Disney probably wanting Sony to slow down on said spin-offs so as not to fuck up the brand, and wanting to get a cut from said spin-offs that do happen.
4.) At some point over the last 2 months, Disney walked away from negotiations. Variety is very clear on this, and the other two trades don't contradict them. Deadline did at first when they broke the story and said that Sony never responded to the first 50/50 offer, but they went back and stealth edited that out of the story. What we don't know is why Disney walked. Variety offers up that it might just have been about the money, or it might have been because after Dark Phoenix bombed, one of the people above Feige at Disney wanted him to fully be working on Disney stuff to make sure that the transition of the Fox properties goes smoothly. But Disney is the one that ends negotiations, not Sony.
5.) Someone leaks the breakdown of negotiations to the press. No one is really clear on who started the leaking, but once the leak is out there, things blow up, probably bigger than whichever company that leaked anticipated. Sony puts out that statement, in an attempt to make it clear that Disney is the one that stopped talking and that they're willing to negotiate. And both sides start talking to the press, trying to get their full side of the story out there. Variety actually hints that the leak is a negotiation tactic from Sony not necessarily to get public opinion on their side (in which case it backfired, tremendously), but to get Disney back to the table at all after they'd left. But right now we have Sony and Disney basically airing out their negotiating points in public instead of actually talking to each other about them, and Sony publicly saying the deal is dead but they're willing to come back while Disney says nothing (which can only really last until this weekend, as they're gonna have to say something to the press about it at D23).
At this point, nothing is set in stone, and everyone can come back to the table at any point before another Spider-Man movie goes into full production. But it'll take both sides getting over whatever hurt feelings and bruised egos may have happened over the past few days/months and hammering out a deal that it doesn't really seem like they were that far apart on. Because if they don't, both sides are probably leaving $100M+ on the table (though Sony needs that money more than Disney does).
Tom Holland's definitely not going to sign up for a MCU divorced TV series he isn't contractually obligated to do.
Does Holland view them as beneath him? TV isn't the despised as a art form by high level actors these days.
It already feels damn near impossible that Feige will be able to handle all of the movies AND Disney+ stuff
but you throw the new Fox properties at him
AND potentially the Spidey spinoff stuff as well
fuck
There's only so much time in a day. And it's clear that Sony wants a Spider-Man movie every other year, with a spinoff filling in the other years. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes that Sony is staying firm on that scheduling, and Feige just can't keep up... especially for a franchise Disney doesn't even own.
Honestly, best case scenario to me would be something similar to what they already had going:
- Feige does the Spidey solo movies (Disney has earned their bigger cut but it can't be 50-50)
- Let Spidey appear in Avengers, no Sony involvement
- Let Sony handle Venom and the spinoffs entirely, no Disney involvement. Maybe they can make Feige into a "Special Consultant" or some other bullshit handle and put his name in front of their spinoffs to make them sound more important. Kinda like how Spielberg was attached to Transformers. I know there's fear that they'll fuck up the brand ala Dark Phoenix but honestly... there's no perfect, realistic way out of this whole situation. Sony knows the power of the Spider-Man brand and realize it is by far their most powerful brand. It's within their right to crank out a movie every year. Feige and Disney trying to control that is just going to cause headaches, I think.
As the MCU has done time and time again, just look at the comics. There have been PLENTY of stinkers over Marvel's history. The people will ignore the bad shit and continue to watch the good. Dark Phoenix being an absolute insane bomb had zero impact on Far From Home which came right after. I don't think a terrible Aunt May solo film would hurt a great Black Panther 2 either.
but you throw the new Fox properties at him
AND potentially the Spidey spinoff stuff as well
fuck
There's only so much time in a day. And it's clear that Sony wants a Spider-Man movie every other year, with a spinoff filling in the other years. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes that Sony is staying firm on that scheduling, and Feige just can't keep up... especially for a franchise Disney doesn't even own.
Honestly, best case scenario to me would be something similar to what they already had going:
- Feige does the Spidey solo movies (Disney has earned their bigger cut but it can't be 50-50)
- Let Spidey appear in Avengers, no Sony involvement
- Let Sony handle Venom and the spinoffs entirely, no Disney involvement. Maybe they can make Feige into a "Special Consultant" or some other bullshit handle and put his name in front of their spinoffs to make them sound more important. Kinda like how Spielberg was attached to Transformers. I know there's fear that they'll fuck up the brand ala Dark Phoenix but honestly... there's no perfect, realistic way out of this whole situation. Sony knows the power of the Spider-Man brand and realize it is by far their most powerful brand. It's within their right to crank out a movie every year. Feige and Disney trying to control that is just going to cause headaches, I think.
As the MCU has done time and time again, just look at the comics. There have been PLENTY of stinkers over Marvel's history. The people will ignore the bad shit and continue to watch the good. Dark Phoenix being an absolute insane bomb had zero impact on Far From Home which came right after. I don't think a terrible Aunt May solo film would hurt a great Black Panther 2 either.
But I didn't use the word as a substitute for profit. I clearly used the 2 words differently and appropriately.
No, businesses sell things at what they perceive its market's value to be-which is often different from what they think they can independently extract by using the asset. Businesses absolutely project on what it will make someone else- because that potential will elevate how much someone else willing pay.
In the case of The Spider-Man IP, given that it includes arguably the worlds most recognizable super hero and 900 other characters, they ain't going to let it go for 2-3 Billion. Not when their last few films suggest they can leverage its value over the next 8-10 years, clear that amount AND still hold the license.
A live-action Spider-Verse, if executed properly, would make bank for whoever pulls it off. They know this now. After seeing consumer reaction to Into the Spiderverse, Far From Home, and Venom, they ain't letting the IP go cheap. And yes 2-3 bill would be cheap.
From a business point of view, Sony's best option is to extend and expand the licensing deal to include more characters. That's essentially free money. Failing that they'd license Peter Parker, but keep making their own movies using the characters they still hold rights to. Failing that they'd just keep it all and do there own thing- taking care to do it right this time. Selling it all for cash would be the least attractive option, especially a just 2-3 Billion.
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I'm sure Disney wouldn't pay it either...which I've said. But Sony isn't going to sell for that either- hence the licensing deal, and subsequently the decision to go it without Disney.
The two companies naturally and rightfully value the properties differently. Disney can't make enough Spider-Man movies to justify even $2Billion, especially since they already own the merch. Sony believes they hold the assets to something that can rival MCU, so they won't entertain any offer that doesn't account for that.
Disney is ,rightfully, no longer keen to forfeit a film slot from one of their own characters and give it to Sony for basically free. In a year, Why would Disney want to do 2 of their own movies + a Sony movie, when they can do 3 of their own movies? This is why their ask for a Stake 30-50% stake isn't unreasonable. By making Spidey movies Disney movies, they wouldn't be swallowing as much opportunity cost for someone else's benefit.
Sony, rightfully, isn't keen to give up stake in its most valuable , most reliable , most profitable IP when they are trying to stay independent in an era of consolidation.
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Feige didn't say a single word during the whole James Gunn debacle either.
I do have to say the one thing that's giving me a sliver of hope in that Variety article is that it says many insiders claimed that Rothman was willing to give up 25% of the franchise, which makes it seem like Sony is absolutely desperate for a deal because that does not in any way seem like a Rothman like thing to want to give up.
Disney's plan is to get the license back for "free" while making Sony boatloads of money in the interim. They cannot spend that kind of capital and have a reasonable explanation to stakeholders. They haven't bought the Hulk rights or distribution to Indy 1-4, both of which would be much cheaper than this. They traded Al Michaels to get the rights to Oswald, for free. Yes they bought the distribution rights from Paramount for Marvel properties and future Indy rights, but that was needed to set up the universe. It was also much cheaper than this transaction would be.
Iger would have a hard time explaining to stakeholders spending even 1B let alone 2 or 3B+ on this. And as you said, Sony will want more, not only cash but a money generating profitable asset. Heck, I would ask for Blue Sky and Fox Searchlight.
Even just keeping it in capex and ignoring stock buybacks and higher dividends.....even at 2-3B Disney execs would have to explain to shareholders why that's a better investment than a new cruise ship or a couple of new lands in China and Paris. If we are talking 5-6B then why is that better than a 2nd resort in China or a 5th gate in Orlando? Or why not buy a respected game publisher like Square Enix or Capcom and go into games and expand your business? If you get into the crazy territory of 10B then why not look into getting an equity and/or buyout the oriental company from Tokyo DisneyLand?
Also some Shang-Chi news:
They may film in Hong Kong and Vietnam as well as Australia.
They may film in Hong Kong and Vietnam as well as Australia.
I guess we'll find out but Mana's retweeting a bunch of people hinting that the Spidey situation has been resolved.
The rumor around right now came from known bullshitter alt-right website cosmicbooknews, if what ManaByte is implying was based on this:
Then it's likely BS, unless for some miracle those assholes got it right
That deal sounds reasonable enough to be true, and that's what worries me, it's too good to be true
Black Widow is gonna be so fucking cool, I'm really hopeful it'll be up there with The Winter Soldier and my other top six.
It's gotten to the point where I'm just ignoring those threads straight up now. Way too many assholes.
Most OT threads are garbage fires compared to the ones in hangouts.
Seeing that bullshit rumour with the "Venom rebooted for the MCU" bit kinda makes me want that, provided they get an actual good script and people from Marvel Studios for that.
It's just such a shame that Tom Hardy wouldn't be able to be part of the MCU (as Venom or as a different character, although I guess the latter wouldn't be impossible seeing what's happened with other actors).
Although it seems like Sony wants to push for Venom to be part of the MCU, right? I guess some option regarding that has been brought up in the negotiations.
It's just such a shame that Tom Hardy wouldn't be able to be part of the MCU (as Venom or as a different character, although I guess the latter wouldn't be impossible seeing what's happened with other actors).
Although it seems like Sony wants to push for Venom to be part of the MCU, right? I guess some option regarding that has been brought up in the negotiations.
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