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Masashi Kishimoto new series, Samurai 8 is a dud

NewErakid

Member
Jan 17, 2018
380
Yes, but Sasuke was added because Kishimoto was having trouble plotting out the story without him. So his editor suggested a rival. So Kishimoto wasn't upset about the addition, he said it became easy to plot out the story having Sasuke.
I never said Kishimoto was upset about what i'm saying it that people as of late have been suggesting Naruto's success was purely because of the editor and not Kishimoto himself. All jump mangaka have editors to provide input into their stories it's a prefectly normal part of the process and it doesn't mean the work isn't the product of the writer himself.
 

Gustaf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,931
It would probably be more visible in Japan itself, although it would also be more visible how many mangaka just die by the wayside. They're not on the same level, but I think there are quite a few that managed to have multiple popular works:

Osama Tezuka (too many to name)
Go Nagai (too many to name)
Akira Toriyama (Dr. Slump and Dragonball)
Asao Takamori (Ashita no Joe and Tiger Mask)
Buronson (Fist of the North Star / Doberman Deka)
Tetsuo Hara (Fist of the North Star / Keiji)
Fujiko Fujio (Doraemon / Q-Taro / Ninja Hattori)
Takehiko Inoue (Slam Dunk / Vagabond)
Mitsuteru Yokoyama (Too many to name)
Masanori Morita (Rokudenashi Blues / Rookies)
Takeshi Obata (Death Note / Hikaru no Go)
CLAMP (a bunch of stuff)
yeah, i dont think authors couldnt have several series being succesfull but my question was more regarding the first volumes.

having a name attached is not something that assures being at the top of the charts
 

tiebreaker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,378
It started off kind of lame IMO, it was heavily borrowing from the “whats beyond the walls” Shingeki no Kyojin formula except all the protagonists were like baby geniuses and 8 year olds.

I stopped reading it when they got beyond that and it became more of a survival horror, but it was finally starting to do its own thing, maybe it’s gotten progressively better.
It's the opposite for me. I'm losing interest as the story progresses.
 

AoM

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,491
There may still be time to course correct, but with what he's set up so far, I can't be entirely sure.
 

BassForever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,509
CT
I never said Kishimoto was upset about what i'm saying it that people as of late have been suggesting Naruto's success was purely because of the editor and not Kishimoto himself. All jump mangaka have editors to provide input into their stories it's a prefectly normal part of the process and it doesn't mean the work isn't the product of the writer himself.
Sure, but sometimes we see with things like Star Wars and Naruto the original writer without people to reel in their bad ideas is just unleashed to make mediocre crap.
 

NewErakid

Member
Jan 17, 2018
380
Sure, but sometimes we see with things like Star Wars and Naruto the original writer without people to reel in their bad ideas is just unleashed to make mediocre crap.
Sure that's also true but I don't think Samurai 8 is "mediocre crap.' People are always quick to point out that just because something is popular doesn't mean it' s good but the opposite is true as well. Dunno if you've read my original post in this thread where I present my counterargument towards some of the criticisms thrown at this series but I don't think this series is bad at all is think its really solid.
 

BassForever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,509
CT
Sure that's also true but I don't think Samurai 8 is "mediocre crap.' People are always quick to point out that just because something is popular doesn't mean it' s good but the opposite is true as well. Dunno if you've read my original post in this thread where I present my counterargument towards some of the criticisms thrown at this series but I don't think this series is bad at all is think its really solid.
I like Samurai 8, but I don’t like it as much as I want to. I find the lore interesting but oh my goodness it’s not as complicated as the series thinks it is. I feel with the amount of lore we’ve seen we should be at chapter like 50-75 not chapter 21.
 

A.J.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,727
Since when is it hard to launch Sci Fi series in Jump. They just had World Trigger in 2013 and it's been pretty successful since.
 

NewErakid

Member
Jan 17, 2018
380
I like Samurai 8, but I don’t like it as much as I want to. I find the lore interesting but oh my goodness it’s not as complicated as the series thinks it is. I feel with the amount of lore we’ve seen we should be at chapter like 50-75 not chapter 21.
The amount of exposition so far is definitely of the more legitimate faults in this series but I still really enjoy the world and characters. I like Hachimaru and how he progresses as a character and Daruma as a teacher. I even like Ann despite the fact I wish Kishimoto would move away from the same tired gender roles but still enjoy the character nonetheless.
And l though the art was messy at the beginning it's been improving and the characters designs in the series are just godlike IMO, i've loved every single samurai design so far.
 

Mocha

Member
Dec 9, 2017
269
That's the shame the last 3 chapters has been better than the whole Naruto Shippuden series.
 

SatoAilDarko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,745
Question for those who keep up? Has any of the 7 other "keys" other than Hachimaru shown up yet? The cat master was looking for them and I assumed they would become his supporting cast like Luffy's crew.

If he does have to cut short I wonder how he would deal with them? Introduce a ton at once. Or have some already be dead/indisposed but their "keys" still usable to open Pandora's box.

I calls to mind the 7 Swordsmen of the Mist and how after Zabuza and Kisame the rest show up for an offscree Kakashi/Sakurai fight. Or Tailed-Beast hosts themselves aside from Naruto, Garra and Killer Bee. Though all of these didn't seemed to be posed to be comrades.

I'm also reminded of how Soul Eater made a big deal of the 8 Shinigami Warriors like the Big Bad Asura and Eibon but in the end has one be Excalibur and never names three of them just having the last known one be a black blob in a book who says the other three old ones are dead. Immediately after this the final arc starts so it seemed time to wrap it up.
 

RochHoch

Member
May 22, 2018
5,033
Since when is it hard to launch Sci Fi series in Jump. They just had World Trigger in 2013 and it's been pretty successful since.
As much as I love World Trigger, it did have a bit of a weak opening, and I feel like its status as a sci-fi series contributed to that.

It started off on the generic side (special new kid comes to school, befriends everyman MC, token bullies get involved), and now that I think about it, Ashihara probably did that way as a means easing readers into the worldbuilding rather than to just throw a ton of exposition at them from the get-go, just like Kishimoto mentioned in that statement in the OP. I haven't checked out Samurai 8 myself, but based on what little I've seen, it's seems like there's a ton of stuff that needs to be explained early on, and it's probably not grabbing people's attention, whereas World Trigger took its time before getting into the finer details.
 
Nov 6, 2017
8,292
Los Angeles
Look..... when it came to concluding Naruto.

He blew it. He blew it big time.
Eeeeeh. He did alright tbh.

To blow it, he'd have to have destroyed Naruto's popularity with his ending and he didn't. Boruto basically skates on Naruto's coattails.

He didn't exceed expectations but the ending wasn't offensive aside from Sasuke x Sakura but that's been a problem since chapter 3 of the story.
 

Uzumaki Goku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,864
Eeeeeh. He did alright tbh.

To blow it, he'd have to have destroyed Naruto's popularity with his ending and he didn't. Boruto basically skates on Naruto's coattails.

He didn't exceed expectations but the ending wasn't offensive aside from Sasuke x Sakura but that's been a problem since chapter 3 of the story.
Boruto has always been slowly dropping in popularity.
 

Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,610
What are you talking about then? Anecdotal evidence from your experience on forums like this?
Yes.

Sales still arent direct proof that the people are actually enjoying the product. I mean when millions of people in Japan collect the stuff by the volumes are they just going to up and stop at volume 59 (or whatever later volume they own) and just stop? Theres so many factors like that you have to question when you're using that as an argument.
 
Nov 6, 2017
8,292
Los Angeles
Most fans agree the final arc sucks as well as many of the arcs before that. Of course that's going to lose a lot of goodwill in Kishimoto.
Yes.

Sales still arent direct proof that the people are actually enjoying the product. I mean when millions of people in Japan collect the stuff by the volumes are they just going to up and stop at volume 59 (or whatever later volume they own) and just stop? Theres so many factors like that you have to question when you're using that as an argument.
The first half of the final arc seems to be well-liked. It's the Kaguya stuff that people hate and partially the Obito stuff ffrom what I've seen.

But you can't really measure this. Who are the fans? The people that roam forums? The casual audience? The American audience? The Japanese audience?

The Japanese love Sasuke Uchiha whereas Americans do not. He's consistently one of the most popular characters/

You'll get a different idea of what people like about Naruto in Japan versus the West.



Boruto has always been slowly dropping in popularity.
That is the fault of Boruto's story not Naruto's story. Going over the movie again in manga format did it no favors.
 

NewErakid

Member
Jan 17, 2018
380
Yes.

Sales still arent direct proof that the people are actually enjoying the product. I mean when millions of people in Japan collect the stuff by the volumes are they just going to up and stop at volume 59 and just stop? Theres so many factors like that you have to question when you're using that as an argument.
Why wouldn't they? why invest in something the you don't like? Bleach sales dropped so why didn't Naruto's?
And if we're talking about direct proof why are you bringing up anecdotes?
 

Vyse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38
That's an embarrassing performance given the exposure it had, are there any specific numbers that determine when a series gets axed or does that work on a case by case basis?
 

brinstar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,976
Yes.

Sales still arent direct proof that the people are actually enjoying the product. I mean when millions of people in Japan collect the stuff by the volumes are they just going to up and stop at volume 59 (or whatever later volume they own) and just stop? Theres so many factors like that you have to question when you're using that as an argument.
Sure they would. Naruto has always been a high seller, but some volumes have sold millions more than others.
 

TiC

Member
Jul 12, 2019
159
That's an embarrassing performance given the exposure it had, are there any specific numbers that determine when a series gets axed or does that work on a case by case basis?
For reference, Robot x Laserbeam, another manga from a big veteran mangaka sold 59,605 copies in its 1st week on sale and it only released 1 volume.
A golf manga sold over twice as much as Samurai 8's first 2 volumes combined, the new series from Kishimoto.
And that wasn't even good enough sales to keep around, they cancelled it in a year.
 

Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,610
Why wouldn't they? why invest in something the you don't like? Bleach sales dropped so why didn't Naruto's?
And if we're talking about direct proof why are you bringing up anecdotes?
I never once brought up factual evidence just my own observation over the years both in real life and on websites like this. You're the only one using factual evidence to support your argument, despite sales not correlating with what people think of the quality of the series. I mean personally I've been collecting Dragon Ball merch, the entire manga, the entire anime series on DVD and Bluray my entire life and at I think the series is like a 5/10. You can still enjoy something and still recognize something isnt a quality work.
 

Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,610
I really can't get the appeal of this mangaka. All of his mangas are trash. Weak story, weak characters, weak narrative, weak everything.

Is it the boobs?
Just goes back to my point that sales doesnt really equate to what people think about the series. Sometimes people just need hot trash in their life they can consume consistently because they may like a certain character, or they like a magic system, the art, etc. Naruto is cut from the same clothe though it isnt nearly as bad as Fairy Tail by any stretch.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,610
Toronto, ON
Question for those who keep up? Has any of the 7 other "keys" other than Hachimaru shown up yet? The cat master was looking for them and I assumed they would become his supporting cast like Luffy's crew.

If he does have to cut short I wonder how he would deal with them? Introduce a ton at once. Or have some already be dead/indisposed but their "keys" still usable to open Pandora's box.

I calls to mind the 7 Swordsmen of the Mist and how after Zabuza and Kisame the rest show up for an offscree Kakashi/Sakurai fight. Or Tailed-Beast hosts themselves aside from Naruto, Garra and Killer Bee. Though all of these didn't seemed to be posed to be comrades.

I'm also reminded of how Soul Eater made a big deal of the 8 Shinigami Warriors like the Big Bad Asura and Eibon but in the end has one be Excalibur and never names three of them just having the last known one be a black blob in a book who says the other three old ones are dead. Immediately after this the final arc starts so it seemed time to wrap it up.
He just met some new characters who seem primed to be revealed as keys -- a sassy thief con artist type and a swordsman with amnesia.
 

squall23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,315
Not every manga is going to be successful, even ones from high-tier mangakas. Like, what did Makoto Raiku do after Gash Bell? Gash Bell was the highest of highs, one of the few shonens not from Jump that could be considered a Big 3 of the time.

Even Rumiko Takahashi made Mermaid Saga which was kind of ehhhhhh.
 
Nov 6, 2017
8,292
Los Angeles
Just goes back to my point that sales doesnt really equate to what people think about the series. Sometimes people just need hot trash in their life they can consume consistently because they may like a certain character, or they like a magic system, the art, etc. Naruto is cut from the same clothe though it isnt nearly as bad as Fairy Tail by any stretch.
Eeeeh. Naruto is half a great shonen and half a meh manga mixed with incompetent writing when it comes to female. It's honestly the terrible writing of females that bring down the manga a lot.

But at least Kishi didn't objectify them. He seems to just not understand how to write a female character.

For contrast, Mashima knows how to write females but because they're always objectified as sex objects, it's a different kind of awfulness.

Kishi's brand comes out of incompetence and Mashima's brand comes out of cold, calculated appeal to horny teenage boys and man-children.