I highly recommend everyone give that a read. The Conservative government under Thatcher quickly folded under pressure from Deng. If they had held their nerve, things might have been very different.
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Massive Chinese Armored Police Convoy Mobilizing Towards Hong Kong, Beijing Based Military Expert Says It's Only For Drills
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I highly recommend everyone give that a read. The Conservative government under Thatcher quickly folded under pressure from Deng. If they had held their nerve, things might have been very different.
People are ridiculously optimistic about the protests for some reason.
It can be the whole 1 billion of chinese on the streets. It doesn't' matter. Popular support is irrelevant for regimes like this. China will make another Tiananmen if they need to do it and the world will do nothing.
If the so called "free world" keeps doing nothing against despots it will keep enabling them.
It can be the whole 1 billion of chinese on the streets. It doesn't' matter. Popular support is irrelevant for regimes like this. China will make another Tiananmen if they need to do it and the world will do nothing.
If the so called "free world" keeps doing nothing against despots it will keep enabling them.
They didn't "return" it because the PRC never ruled Hong Kong in the first place. They gifted it to a foreign regime without any input from Hongkongers. To the average Hongkonger, the mainland is just as much an imperial power as the UK was (arguably more so as evidenced by these protests and the ones in 2014).
UK betrayed every one of their colonies, people who wear rose tinted glasses and raise the neo colonial revisionism is non sense.
Oh yeah I will tell you how Thatcher fucked HK, she personally nixed the deal to give all HKer UK passports. HKers only got some UK travel documents that expired after a few years.
You bean the BNO?
It's a British passport that name you as a British National, but not a British citizen, and it's kind of expensive to renew.
Some HKers did get UK passports, the rest got the entirely useless BNO passport and just so you know how useless it is, if you visit the UK too many times using it, they'll stop you at the border and ask you why you keep visiting.
Of course PRC never ruled because HK has been colonized for over 100 years.
HK's problems largely stem from its economic woes and growing xenophobia. One reason it got little support from mainland besides the propaganda media is because of HK's past history of calling mainland people names.
The democracy process in HK is similar to other Asian countries, a lot of shouting and name calling during meetings while getting nothing done.
I think it is because people rarely read what happened outside of their world. So BS like these went unnoticed easily. Not to mention there are alot of Trump supporter lurking here and will use any chance to discredit the news media.
For reference, here is what had happened on Sunday, Aug 11, which triggers airport demonstration for today & yesterday:
Police went undercover in all protests and arrest protester on site (but Police would not disclose their role in any of the clash happened previously - ie if they incite violence clash with the police). Here
Use of tear gas in indoor (it is a subway station and civilians/subway staffs are in it) Here
Pushing and beating people down escalator (almost cause stampede) & Projectiles fired at point blank range Here
Journalist were harassed and even attacked by pro-government thugs and the Police escort the offenders to safety Here
One female (said to be first-aider) were shot in the face. Her face were severely damaged and may have lost one eye. Police didn't acknowledge it and even blame it was a misfiring from the protester (For the record, she was wearing a protecting goggles and it require some powerful projectile like rubber bullet to penetrate it). Here
Planting fake evident in protesters bag while they were arrested and handcuffed Here
And all of the above were actually caught in camera. Who knows any more dirty tactics they have employed. And I doubt that user can provide anything visible proof other than some random site spouting out garbage. It is well known in Hong Kong there are CCP propaganda machine lurking around social media (twitter, facebook etc, because regular Chinese cannot look at these site without crossing their "Great Firewall"). So most Chinese in the internet are pro-CCP.
Mostly muddying the conversation. Calling what's happening in Hong Kong Xenophobia is a huge stretch. Anti China sure, but it takes an apologist of the PRC to twist it into Xenophobia
You can't blame the UK when it was in a 99 years lease contract. It's not like UK give Hong Kong back to China out of nowhere.
It might have been in some Hongkong people mind for long time regarding to how they don't want to be part of China. But I mean what can they do, in merely 30 years Chinese government will have legal control power over the land, and HongKong people can do nothing about it. All the rich or higher middle class already moved elsewhere ( UK , Canada, Australia ), only leave the middle-lower class there who has no choice but get abuse by Capitalism. Funny thing is they blame Chinese government for everything, yet their situation rightnow is the consequence of capitalism that take over the city for century.
Not that I don't understand how they feel, but man, China will have legal right over the land eventually. What are you going to do about it. It's not like they invade by force or anything. Any this protesting only make thing worse, and might exacgerrate the situation to the point where the Chinese government can just make excuse to move in earlier.
Just now, China and US have handshake and stop 10% tariff. For US , their own benefit come first, and as long as they get a good deal they don't care. Only Hong kong people who is left in shit after all this. I don't really think US will even do anything.
Housing price is through the roof even though there are a lot of lands but government is split and indecisive on where and how to develop affordable housing.
When every other major city in the world is trying to expand their tech industry, HK is still stuck in Wall Street mode while other mainland cities took over the tech market.
Lack of clear future for young people, not enough good jobs locally but can't endure mainland's restrictions make them trapped. Fueled with anger towards the propaganda and tightening control of CCP, there are these protests that go on for weeks.
I'm taking the position of not everything is sunshine and justice. The sentiment of framing the things going on in HK as peaceful, respectful is way too simple and naive.
Just look up the past couple years where blatant xenophobia and racism towards mainland from the protesters in HK.
We have protesters shooting lasers and rolling trash cans that are in fire while bricking a police station and we act like it's really that one sided?
Stop downplaying what happened. The insults from some HK protesters were downright racism. They are the type of rhetoric Trump uses to discriminate against immigrants.
Downplaying? Nah. Using words that vaguely fit to lead people to the wrong conclusions is bad form
How about you engage in honest discourse
I'm being perfectly honest. I hate CCP's bs and I despise the racism and xenophobia from some HK extremists.
Funny how you nicely call HK's racist name calling "Anti-China". That is downplaying right there.
Let me do some clearing on Hong Kong's issues, which I don't think there are many active Hong Kong users here.
Hong Kong main financial activities are like many major developed city (Tokyo, New York), Finance & Banking, Tourism & Service Industry. And like Japan in the past, Real Estate is also one of our driving force (sadly). Because the size of Hong Kong and lack of satellite cities available (like Singapore, we are just a city state, we are not considered Chinese citizen and moving out of HK into China is a pain), our Real Estate price are always unaffordable to normal workers. To make matter worse, Chinese rich people & officials need ways move their capital earn from shady deals outside of China. Other than US & European countries, HK is a common safe harbor. Thus our housing cost drive even higher.
Second, Chinese are the only people that our immigration system has no control over. Our government grant 150 quotas to China per day, and it is their government decided who will moved here. As a result, these immigrants are unwanted. They often lack professional skills and proficients in our language. Often make them leeching on our welfare system. Most noticeable is our government-housing system. To make matters worse, they are some of the most pro-Beijing voters here, undermining our election system by systemically flooding with pro-Beijing candidates.
Third, Chinese tourists. China food safety regulation is a joke, also Chinese themselves do not trust their own merchants with fake/copycat products. So they are leaving China to buy everything they needs, baby formulas, jewelry, luxury items, you name it. Hong Kong is one of the closest and easiest place you can get their hands on. So it cause distortion in our daily life. Instead a balance mix of stores in our communities, our merchants crave to Chinese tourist needs and keep opening shops that can earn the China money. For my personal example, just 100m surrounding my home, we have 6-7 Pharmacy, 4 Jewelry stores, and 3 currency exchange shops.
So yes, Xenophobia is a common cheap tactics that Chinese like to use to describe our distaste towards them. We welcome all people around the globe, just we don't want any of the Chinese invading our home.
So do Palestinian view towards Israel count as Xenophobia/racists, or recent Kashmir event towards India? We seek independent (or some lesser extend, free of China influence) and we are not welcoming invaders.
LMAO. Saying xenophobia is a cheap tactic used to describe you while immediately following up with a xenophobic comment.
And the "dislike" go both way, Mainlainder like to call HK dog too, and other deragotary term for Taiwan people, Japan, Korean, Although how much is the Net army, and how much is actual real mainlander is not really known.
there's a reason that China tourist has surpassed US tourist as the most unmannered and disliked, that even China's own netizen, and government had to set up a blacklist(It was useless) for tourist that visit other country and causes a big incident, in which if you look at Taiwan, Hk, Japan news, you can always find something that a Chinese tourist did.
LOL. I mean you're not wrong describing how HKers see the problem. But I think just you just gave a bunch of white liberals heart attack.
Its definitely not "racism". I'm guessing you are from the mainland. They feel occupied and rightfully so. "shooting lasers and rolling trashcans that are on fire", really? Thats what you're bringing to this discussion? I cant even believe I have to tell you that thats absurd. Yeah its one-sided. As it almost always is in any country where government holds a monopoly on violence. On the other side we have teargas, and lets not forget the criminal gangs.
These are all valid concerns for Hong Kong's citizens but also a lot of the problems arise from mainlanders moving in. Especially housing prices.
There's an almost 30% tax for non HK citizens to buy property. It's been there for almost 10 years.
The core of the problem lies with massive undeveloped lands with indecisive government fighting over whether they should build there or not.
House prices are rising because of huge capital shifts by Chinese citizens investing in the market and ckyrocketing prices, which in turn has fostered a resentment among some HKers, which is entirely understandable. The same has happened in a number of cities around the world because of rich Chinese and Russians moving capital and investing in houses, which has led to skyrocking prices and reduced stock.
Where do you think the plentiful land the government can use is? I was in HK when Lam announced land reclamation for Lantau Island and while there was some pushback, I think it was pretty well received as long as it led to real affordable housing and not just more houses for the rich to invest in.
As for the general economy, HK has seen pretty good growth, but has been hit by the trade war between the US and China. The tech industry, while falling behind countries like China, is starting to grow too, largely, and ironically, because of China and Shenzhen.
China's borders were not drawn by treaties with the Qing dynasty, and generally speaking, such treaties made before WW2 might as well be written on ice.
Modern China's borders were drawn at Yalta, and the new territories remaining on a lease was a compromise between China and the US (which at the time still assume China is gonna be an ally after the war) which wanted all of Hong Kong to go back to China and the UK which wanted to retain their control over both HK and the new territories.
From an international law perspective, the moment China sat in the UN with the new territories as part of it, that story was pretty settled (though its should be noted that countries break those international laws all the fucking time, so if the UK wanted to say fuck you to China the only thing China could've have really done is go to war with them).
p.s.
From a moral preservative I think the UK had no right to retain any of its colonial holdings, but that's a different discussion.
Can someone explain how the Hong Kong protesters are being xenophobic, or is this just people just supporting the CCP and throwing shit at the wall hoping it sticks?
Nah, I understand what you mean. Our Government is filthy rich, thanks to our stupid land & real estate policy. Usually the welfare system is a nickel & dime in our pocket and we have our fare shares of people leeching our own system. But our biggest concern is once again, our housing policy. I am earning around 3.5k (in USD) a month (not much, but our tax is almost non-existence) and I can live a decent life. But even I cannot dream to buy a house without spending my next 30 years repaying the mortgage and had at least over 200k in savings for the down payment. If I were to move out of my parent house, my only hope is having a very low income (around half of my current earning) and apply for the government house (which you only need to pay lower-than-market-price rental fee). This queue, you guess it, is very long. Waiting for more than 10 years is not unheard of. Luckily for Chinese immigrants, they are able join the fast queue (along with elderly, disabled & people suffering domestic violence) and their waiting period can be shortened to 2-3 years.
Imagine how we would feel towards this policy. And that is what our biggest complain for the welfare policy
There is a lot of tension and downright hostility between (some) Hong Kongers and people from the mainland.
Not everyone, not all the time, but it's undeniably there, and it's got a lot of ugly shit going into it.
It's not what the protests is about, but when emotions are that high, those things will undoubtedly surface here in there.
To sum it up, we think Chinese are invading our home and Chinese thinks we are the prestige ones in China.
The protest is decentralized, there is no organization. I don't think the majority of the protestors are xenophobic (at least according to my friend on the ground there). However there are graffiti saying 支那 (racist slur used by Japanese army in WWII)猪 (swine). Don't get more xenophobic than this.
I don't support CCP. Moved out of the country because I can't stand the government. And I think the HKers have every right to be on the street without police intervention. But this is no excuse for this.
I think we are essentially in agreement that the original lease/treaty had no real bearing on the handover to the PRC.
However, I think the UK should have told them to fuck off unless they secured more favourable conditions for Hong Kong. That is where my main problem resides with the handover.
Dude you just used language from a Trump speech. Are you serious?
You mean the province of China where nothing ever happened?
nope can't say i do
User Banned (1 week): Inflammatory Generalizations and Xenophobic Rhetoric
Most people around the world don't really care for uncivilized Chinese. With 100s of them coming into Hong Kong everyday, the chances of the Chinese population in HK being uncivilized are not liitle t, i am not surprised that racists remarks were used against them by Hong Kongers. We have similar comments here in Singapore against them too , because some of them are really uncivilized and rude (stop shitting and peeing everywhere man , Washrooms are everywhere ) :/
Not excusing the xenophobic behaviour but this protest bring out a lot of rage and comments like these are not surprising. They should direct the anger to the government though, most Chinese don't deserve the insults especially when they think that Hong Kongers are also their family. Fuck, i understand the anger but some protesters are doing things that will only do damage to their cause.
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I'm most certainly not in agreement that colonial powers should have kept their holdings.
Hong Kong should have been democratized and given independence five minutes after world war 2, it would have probably stayed independent if it had.
There are enough empty land in HK to house twice of the people living HK now. The problem is HK has a weak and small government controlled by the major property developer families. Think of the SF NIMBY problem, and turn it into a death cult, so the apartment owning 48% (something like that, a very low number) can hold the landless young people hostage.
You want to see a place that has built housing fast enough to house the influx of immigrants, look at Singapore. Oh hell just look at Shenzhen.
We are dead serious. I have explained in my previous post. They literally flooding their people on us, without our control.
Contrast to Mexicans & Muslim immigrants in US, our Chinese immigrants actually active involved in the politics, co-operating with PRC government to get pro-Beijing candidates elected (though I also partially blame HKers like to distant themselves from politics, allowing pro-Beijing parties running rampage)
This is fucking gross, look at the language you're using to describe what is mostly people who come over to try and better their lives.
Your issue is with the government, not with random people from the mainland, but HK's shitty ass government love that people keep on pointing fingers at anyone but them and their shitty-ass policies.
Singapore is even removing one of our Airbase to bulid a new estate and house more people.
Yes, i agree which was why PAP lost more seats in 2011 but did gain back most of them in our last election after they changed their policies.
I don't think Hong Konger are as lucky as me.
I am saying that we agree on the original treaty as a pre-text for the handover being a farce. Not that the UK should have retained Hong Kong (though that would have been better than gifting it to the PRC.)
I agree with the rest of your post wholeheartedly.
A lot of the animosity is based on class rather than "race." People forget that most of China was a rural shithole some 30-40 years ago until Deng opened up its markets and exploitable labor force, whereas HK was modern because of British colonialism due to the Opium Wars. Getting caught up in someone using the term in another context when it's clear that English isn't their primary language shouldn't get the derision it does. A simple clarification would suffice instead of calling them shills and apologists. It's also a misunderstanding on your part because you don't understand why there's animosity to begin with.
Yes, we have space, but it means nothing if no one can afford to buy it. Our problem comes in many directions. The main culprit is always the "HIgh land price" policy from the government. And laundry money coming from China does not help either.