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Massive Chinese Armored Police Convoy Mobilizing Towards Hong Kong, Beijing Based Military Expert Says It's Only For Drills
- Thread starter Deleted member 18944
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This was a problem before China. The British fucked it up a LONG time ago.
You know, once the HK government show any sign that it's serious about making housing affordable we can discuss about whether or not they can overcome the influx of money from the mainland.
But I donno, it's definitely seem to me that the HK government is prioritizing real-estate prices for real-estate developers above pretty much anything.
You know, people talk only about the pro-beijing/pro democracy rift in HK politics, and it's important no doubt, but at the same time, the government pretty much bent over to bankers and real-estate developers, and I think the fact normal HKers are now punching each other in the street most certainly doesn't hurt their effort to continue with that shit.
If you build more apartments than the people who are in the market, the price will fall. Do you understand supply and demand?
You guys have 3 major protests this decade and nobody has surround the legco for "reasonable land price"? what a joke.
Why do the "laundry money" buys nothing but apartments? because HK doesn't offer anything else.
User banned (5 days): Inflammatory generalizations over a series of posts
I am sorry. We experience this shit first hand. I have empathy for other people seeking better life in Hong Kong, We are actually housing many refugees seeking asylum to other western countries due to the convention we signed. Despite many netizen in HK claim they are XXXX (whatever shit Trump like to use to describe Maxican & Muslims), I never says such words towards them. I knew they come from country of despair they deserves better.
But I could not says the same thing for people come from China.
Don't fall for their faux outrage trap. The use of the word xenophobia as I pointed out was strategic to tie the movement to negative things. Its interesting to see the same accounts signal.boosting that read of HK grievances as well
The next step is to paint the protests as far-right , western and they can handwave all issues away as not legitimate.
Signal boosting my ass, did you even read what he wrote? Immigration is ok as long as it's not Chinese? Supporting the protesters doesn't mean I have to accept the little Ben Shapiro fans among them.
This is horrible language, seriously. Like, you're saying if Mexicans immigrants were getting involved in US politics it would be a bad thing?
Also, I don't know who "we" are, but the Hong Kong government has a pretty damn strict control about who can come to Hong Kong.
p.s.
FlOoDiNg ThE cOuNtRy
They immigration quota hasn't even been reached in quite a few years.
Do you know what is amount of house we produce each year and what are their price? around 20,000 private built apartment were provided each year, and the price still doubled in ten years. Do you honestly think HK has 20,000 new family each year? No, because they kept brought out by already-rich people for capital investment (make sense since housing price keep beating our stock-market performance).
We have zero measures on rich people keep hoarding houses for investments and our pricing keep increasing as a result.
And I am talking about it in response to the shit people are spouting about the relation between this protest and our "financial" problem. I never said it myself. This protest is always about freedom and democracy.
Did you grow up around people from HK? EVERYONE thought people from Eastern China were ghetto as fuck. The only people worse than those from Beijing were the Fujianese. Cantonese were ok because they spoke the same dialect. This isnt some new phenomenon.
You're missing the fact that your democracy is directly related to the financial issue.
I am implying the difference between the white nationalist claiming the Muslims immigrants will turn US into a Sharia law country, which is not true and never will be. But Chinese immigrants are known to have tied to PRC government and obeyed their instruction to vote as Beijing wished.
Also, I don't know who "we" are, but the Hong Kong government has a pretty damn strict control about who can come to Hong Kong.
p.s.
FlOoDiNg ThE cOuNtRy
They immigration quota hasn't even been reached in quite a few years.
This is strict ignorance. HK immigration department do not and can not control who can come from China. Citizens from other country need to applied to HK Government for working visa or student visa. Then they will become HK citizen after living for 7 straight years. However, Chinese citizens only needs to apply the one-way permit from their local government. Hong Kong government grants a maximum of 150 such quotas per day, but we cannot block their entrance once it is approved. By you figure, we had had over 300k people coming over 10 years span. Do you know our total population? Around 6 millions, 0.5% of our population coming from China per year is HUGH.
Can you find me any other immigrant population anywhere where this is something that will be acceptable to say about them?
FFS, it's just people coming there for work, live or to reunite with their family, they're not all robotic agents of the CPC.
Is your image of Hong Kong is really of a place that blocks all immigration from the mainland?
HK controls the quota and controls the naturalization process. You can shut it down if you want, I suspect that you don't because you don't fuck enough and want to avoid having a negative population growth.
You issues are with your government, not with immigrants.
The problem of this immigration is we have absolutely zero control over it. Our government is a PRC puppets and are not going to regain the control. Imagine Mexicans can legally entered your country anyway they want, as many people as they want. They are going to impact your life weather they are GOOD PEOPLE OR NOT. (again, not bedeviling Mexicans here, just a metaphor). And we are in a much worse condition because here Mexican is about the size of US but US is only a size of New York.
Not total block, all we ask for is CONTROL. Right now this is all the problem coming from.
I am sorry, Hong Kong has a very open naturalization process. Once you lived here for 7 straight years without committing crimes. You automatically become a permanent resident and have a choice to obtain HK citizenship. And one-way premit bypass the typical restriction most visa have (you either need to have a job or studying here). So technically if you can live here without a job for 7 years, you can become a HK citizen naturally.
Because New York is a city, not a city-state? And they don't have a border like HK? US/UK itself has immigration control, just like HK.
It doesn't matter in your property price argument.
Also plenty of oversea rich people are buying up the super high rise central park luxury apartments.
Hong Kong set the quota.
It's possible that Beijing will be pissed if they try to reduce it, but they haven't.
Also, I'm not sure what your argument here, you think the issue is that China is "sending you the wrong people"?
Do you honestly can't hear how bad all of that shit sounds?
What your argument here?
That people should not be granted citizenship even after living in HK for 7 years?
I really really don't think HK problem is immigrants, I think immigrants are rarely the problem, and they aren't in this case.
Do you know we did ask for it in the past? But our governement, being appointed by PRC government to act as a puppet regime, will never approve it.
All I am saying, our immigration policy do not do the selection in the naturalization process but when people are applying visa, which is a good thing as it encourage people stay in HK. But the problem comes from we also lose control when the one-way pass permit bypass our selection process.
I think this immigration thing contributes nothing to our current event. So I will stop here to avoid looping the same thing over and over.
You had a government that wanted to reduce the quota?
That news to me, seriously, I was not aware of it.
I know Carrie Lam is against it.
I think the issue here is that your government is fucking you over and you blame immigrants. Again, take a step back and look at how some of your posts in this thread reads, I know emotions are high, but this is not something you would say about any other immigrant population anywhere.
Edit: to be clear here, I think Carrie Lam fucking sucks and she should fucking go, I just hope this doesn't turn into an anti-immigrant/anti-mainlander thing, and as I'm sure you know, those currents exists in Hong Kong.
the thing that struck me was listening to the BBC interview one of the protest speakers.
and the interviewer says " It feels like this law is no longer a threat and that protesters have gone beyond fighting the legal issues, what are you fighting for now?"
and it's fundamentally wrong. On every level the framing is wrong, you don't FEEL facts, and how can you FEEL that a law is no longer being considered? It's just so Orwellian that it struck me.
and the interviewer says " It feels like this law is no longer a threat and that protesters have gone beyond fighting the legal issues, what are you fighting for now?"
and it's fundamentally wrong. On every level the framing is wrong, you don't FEEL facts, and how can you FEEL that a law is no longer being considered? It's just so Orwellian that it struck me.
Not trying to defend HK's immigration policies, but just trying to point out that xenophobia and being shitty to immigrants is a pretty common theme on the mainland as well even among their own people. For example there is the "hukou" system in China which is a way to prevent poor farmers moving into a city from getting public benefits like schools, etc.
That's no excuse for what he was saying though. If he was talking about any other racial group like that, he would have been banned 10 posts ago. Threads about China on ERA always have a racial undertone and the mods rarely do a thing about it.
Can you explain this specifc issue like I'm 5 because I'm not sure I understand it.
What assurances do people want?
At the end of the day the pro Beijing coalition have a majority in the HK legislature and they can always pass the law again if they want to.
I totally get and support kicking Lam out of office, be I'm not sure I understand the specifc procedural concern about where this law currently stand.
You either trust the government to not try to pass it or you don't, short of amending the basic law I'm not sure how you can bind their future actions otherwise, but maybe I'm missing something.
you want to talk about politics when I'm commenting on the unintentionally Newspeakish ways people communicate today, especially in media. in answer to your question they are probably right to expect the boom or the other shoe or the gripping hand or the unseen angle when dealing with large government forces, and I can sympathize with them wanting the anxiety to go away and to feel like they can trust their controlling powers. The truth is, they can't, so they need some concrete assurance other than refiling dockets before they'll relent.
Unfortunately they're dealing with China, not a sympathetic democracy. The problem of 'party over people' isn't going to be solved here, or even addressed. Only complicated. Or, they could surprise us.
As long as mods allow mainlanders make fun of Hong Kongers, I would call it a fair game. That's not racism though. What is it call regional discrimination?
Two places that have dominant party systems with enough power to get things done.
I can bet my life that universal suffrage will not solve the housing issue in HK.
He was talking about people being leeches and China sending the wrong people. How explicitly Trumpian do you want it be? I'm not aware this kind of language is fair game on ERA because I've definitely seen people getting banned for less offensive language.
You don't just get to pass 10 million people around because of a lease from 100 years ago between governments that are long gone.
It's unfair to the people of Hong Kong to tell them they're now a part of China. That should be up to them to decide
Characterizing British colonialism as a simple lease between two governments is certainly a take and a terrible one at that. You should educate yourself on the Opium Wars because it shaped how the West dealt with and continues to deal with China.
Hong Kong going back to China is closer to reunification than a lease.
Let me describe what had happened about this whole return thing. Around '80s, the 99 year lease is about to be due (for the northern part of HK). So British government & PRC government start talking about it. At the time, HKers & Chinese & British all thinks HK is supposed to be part of China (which China is debatable as Taiwan is also technically another Chinese government, and ROC is viewed more as legit successor of Qing Dynasty) so no body is making a fuss about it.
Then came the Tiananman Square, everybody in HK is in panic. So Dang invented one country & two systems. At the time, Communists promised stability and HK remains a western political system & jurisdiction systems for at least 50 years. HK polticians (mostly pro-demo because pro-beijing party was pretty much goes underground) agrees to it. Basic Law (a mini-constitution) was drawn and in Annex 2, Universal Suffrage were promised as ultimate goal in our political system. So it was called "democratic reunification" around the '90s. Self-autonomy were never presented as a option to HKers, as these whole things were lead by British, PRC, and few patriotic pro-Dem politicians (but to be honest, I doubt it will go thru because patriotism is still strong & communist China still hasn't show its ugly head to HKers.)
After '97, everything is history. PRC has been meddling everything in HK. Universal suffrage is no where to be seen. Seeking HK independent although not becoming main stream, but gaining foothold in our city. This anti-extradition movement is pretty much the extension of our fear to the PRC government.
This is an excellent summary of the years leading upto the handover and something I'm familiar with.
The thing is that the British never really gave a fuck about HK outside of what they could get out if it. The same inequality that existed under their occupation exists today under China. In a sick way, it's more in line with the spirit of pre-handover than not as capital flows from Chinese hands instead of Western ones. At the end of the day, the material conditions of HK citizens need to improve and I don't see anything that addresses that issue. That doesn't mean that I'm against the protests, but I think pushing for more structural reforms as opposed to the status quo is a better goal. And if we're being honest with ourselves, the material conditions of HK citizens is better than it was 30 years ago. Using western symbolism is a bad look too.
"One country two systems" is designed before 1989 though, as it was included in the sino-british joint declaration in 1985. Deng was more pragmatic than Xi and thinks that it's more beneficial to China to keep the status quo.
Yeah. I don't think china has a legitimate claim to Hong Kong anymore
I am so glad to see reasonable voice like yours in this thread. Hong Kong needs structural change to address grievance of wealth inequality, lack of social safety net and insane housing price. All these things are "legacy" created by the colonial government.
Hong Kong was setup for a predictable and unsustainable society like it is today way back by Britain. Many Hong Kong people seem to forget/not understand that Hong Kong was basically a TAX HAVEN FOR BRITISH COMPANIES where British companies and banks park their profit and pay much lower tax than they would in BRITAIN. If Britain was thinking for Hong Kong society's long term health and stability, it would run it more like UK with much better healthcare, free college and social welfare program.
The protesters should focus on policy that address lack of social welfare programs due to low tax policy and lack of public housing like the successful one Singaporean enjoy instead of naively yelling for freedom and democracy which is a no starter with any Chinese control administration.
Singapore has dominant party semi-authoritarian rule which is a no starter for protesters.
I said earlier universal suffrage / democracy won't fix HK's fundamental problems, the interests of the rich and powerful will be kept, and the tire would be kicked.
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the same was said of Crimea but nobody did anything about it. Chinas eventually going to take over.
Most likely. That said, Crimea isn't an important world financial hub so there is probably a very slight chance of the world actually doing something. Hong Kong's stock exchange is 5th biggest in the world. Only China, Japan and the USA have bigger ones. I wouldn't doubt it what is happening in Hong Kong is scaring people more than Trump's trade war.
Sorry I was fussy about my memory. Actually after Tiannaman, we have had a wave of immigration, attempting leaving HK behind to find a new home. Our last British Governor, Chris Patten, had attempted a political reform and make the last LEGO election very close to universal suffrage without changing the existing structure at that time (to simply explain, our legislation body consists of two group, direct election group & functional group). Direct election group are democratic elected while functional group are elected by people of specific professions, Patten bypass it by introducing nine seats that virtually make everyone eligible to vote).
PRC found this move is against its plan, in '97, PRC disband the current council and form a new temporary council body with all seats elected by a government committee. From then on, some people starting to realize the two systems were a false promise. Came 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012, 4 general elections passed and still no reform were started (as per Basic Law, saying the council be will reformed in a steady progress, which leads to universal suffrage). Half of our council still controlled by big corporation & pro-beijing political group. With few seats here and there were held by pro-Dem parties (mainly the education group & lawyer group). Our Chief Official still pretty much "appointed" by beijing because the election is so rigged.
Even without Xi, HK status quo is non-existance already. Our governing body, our jurisdiction system, our financial market independence are corrupted by beijing political influence since 97.
China saw the original deal as unfair and forced on them because they were the much weaker country. Eventually UK became the weaker country and could barely keep governing it themselves, China said they're gonna take it back no matter what. So the UK gave it to China to avoid conflict.
If the UK wasn't a shell of it's former self then they probably would have tried to extend the deal.
Probably wouldn't have happened since Nixon and the security Council recognized the PRC instead.