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Toriko

Member
Dec 29, 2017
7,662
But then it comes the question : will they make less, more or the same if their storefront - add to that their content - is not locked in their walled garden ?
I mean of course they are doing tons of money with PS Store : the PS4 is a 100 million+ plataform and every user of it it´s locked on their walled garden.

Is it tho ?
I´m a PS Store user.
I buy all my 1P and 3P titles on PS Store.
The day that PS Store drops on PC I´ll go with it.
I won´t buy my all my 3P titles on PS Store anymore.

My suspicion that you are going with PS is because consoles are easy to get into, cheaper than a powerful PC and exclusives?

Why would that change just because this content is available on another more expensive and complicated platform?

Even if you do switch platforms I think most people who get into playstation is because they know they will get great quality and varied content at an affordable price and easy setup. I doubt these 106 million who bought into playstation will suddenly set up gaming PCs because that content is available elsewhere. At least I dont think this will happen in enough numbers to be anything more than statistical noise IMO.

I think where this strategy will become challenging is when streaming actually takes off in the next 20 years and that is where things could get interesting. Because then the setup will no longer become a concern and ease of access will be at an all time high. That is what Sony needs to prepare for and worry about. They should not be worrying about putting their content on PC. In fact more people playing their content before streaming takes off the better position they would be in for a streaming and platform agnostic future that Zedark was talking about!
 
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Drensch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
742
This will result in publishers charging for betas, alphas and gamers paying to playtest games for publishers. They'll want that revenue upfront for games and gamers will pay.
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
[Platform License fee + 30% purchase price] * average title ownership on platform

yeah, they can afford $100 and that's before online paywall purchases

Fairly sure you don't pay license fee in addition to 30%, but it's part of it.

Ironically, Mat then goes onto to say this:

That does imply that EGS's antics hurt the wider PC gaming market, at least in the US.


Out of interest, I did maths for my purchases and I spent way more less than I expected.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
MS seem to be way ahead in terms of understanding trends and projecting the next big shift. Just that they miss the ball with execution. Looks like that's changed as they got the ball rolling early with subscription model, Gamepass is looking really strong moving into next gen. Exciting times nonetheless.
 

NoPiece

Member
Oct 28, 2017
304
Interesting to hear that EGS nonsense is actually hurting PC sales (in the US at least). Not surprising though. The thought process behind Epic's antics is basically the antithesis of PC gaming.

There is a lot going on besides EGS exclusives. Like EGS free games, Twitch free games, Microsoft Game Pass for PC, Origin Access, Uplay+, etc.. Hurting PC sales doesn't mean consumers got hurt (free games, or played on subscription instead of buying), and it doesn't mean developers got hurt (got guaranteed payments up front). Basically, sales isn't a good standalone measure of the health of the PC market anymore.
 

beelulzebub

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,579
Ironically, Mat then goes onto to say this:

That does imply that EGS's antics hurt the wider PC gaming market, at least in the US.

Yep. EGS has led me to go console for some smaller indie titles (Untitled Goose Game, Wattam) and made me wait for some others (Control, Outer Worlds) when normally I would have bought those on Steam day one.
 
OP
OP
Zedark

Zedark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,719
The Netherlands
My suspicion that you are going with PS is because consoles are easy to get into, cheaper than a powerful PC and exclusives?

Why would that change just because this content is available on another more expensive and complicated platform?
It could be that your decision is based on the exclusive games available on the console, and you not wanting to invest in multiple systems (i.e. not maintain a console and a gaming PC). In such scenarios, PSN being available on PC might get you to invest in a gaming PC, and buy your third party games on Steam instead. It's still an open question how big of an impact the availability of (former) Sony exclusives on other systems impact the PSN sales of third party content, since these exclusives have had a strong impact on getting people into the PS ecosystem in the last few years.

If streaming becomes the main factor of the industry, then the question shifts again, since we now have a situation where third party sales are gone completely, and content is used to sell subscriptions. It's uncharted territory that Google, Sony and Microsoft are starting to explore more, but it'll be interesting to watch at the very least.
 

Toriko

Member
Dec 29, 2017
7,662
It could be that your decision is based on the exclusive games available on the console, and you not wanting to invest in multiple systems (i.e. not maintain a console and a gaming PC). In such scenarios, PSN being available on PC might get you to invest in a gaming PC, and buy your third party games on Steam instead. It's still an open question how big of an impact the availability of (former) Sony exclusives on other systems impact the PSN sales of third party content, since these exclusives have had a strong impact on getting people into the PS ecosystem in the last few years.

I just added some context to your question in another post which I should have included in my original reply. I have quoted it below.

My suspicion that you are going with PS is because consoles are easy to get into, cheaper than a powerful PC and exclusives?

Why would that change just because this content is available on another more expensive and complicated platform?

Even if you do switch platforms I think most people who get into playstation is because they know they will get great quality and varied content at an affordable price and easy setup. I doubt these 106 million who bought into playstation will suddenly set up gaming PCs because that content is available elsewhere. At least I dont think this will happen in enough numbers to be anything more than statistical noise IMO.

I think where this strategy will become challenging is when streaming actually takes off in the next 20 years and that is where things could get interesting. Because then the setup will no longer become a concern and ease of access will be at an all time high. That is what Sony needs to prepare for and worry about. They should not be worrying about putting their content on PC. In fact more people playing their content before streaming takes off the better position they would be in for a streaming and platform agnostic future that Zedark was talking about!
 
OP
OP
Zedark

Zedark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,719
The Netherlands
I just added some context to your question in another post which I should have included in my original reply. I have quoted it below.
I saw it, edited in a bit in my post in response, even :P

The streaming future is interesting because it'll be exclusive content that determines the value of the service, and Sony are quite well-positioned for such a contest. On the other hand, if platforms go away completely, then third parties might be more selective about putting games on Sony's streaming service since it's not as good a deal for them as their own streaming service is, and first party publishers might again lose significant income from third parties. But yeah, as I said in my previous post, it's quite uncharted territory, so I find it hard to imagine what third parties would do in a situation where full game sales are vastly smaller than subscription player counts: do they withdraw from "just another sub service" that PS Now represents, or do they continue to offer their games on there instead of pursuing their own subscription (like EA and Ubisoft are doing)?
 
May 25, 2019
6,020
London
Ironically, Mat then goes onto to say this:

That does imply that EGS's antics hurt the wider PC gaming market, at least in the US.


I 100% believe it. If nothing else, games like Control were less visible to my friends who are PC gamers because they only really use Steam and maybe Origin.

Also, people are really sick of having a friends list fragmented across several launchers. Discord is great for voice chat but people want the Right Click -> Join Game experience.
 

LBsquared

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 22, 2019
1,603
Didnt the Switch doing well just stabilize a market that Nintendo themselves destabilized with the Wii U disaster?
 

Yerffej

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,447
Physical is out the door in 5-7 years. Book it.
Internet infrastructure will not be where it needs to be in 5 to 7 years. That's a fuckload of people left in the cold come cutoff time.


...unless that whole battle for low orbit satellite internet actually works as proposed and people everywhere get affordable, high speed, relatively low ping internet.
 

Arkeband

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,663
Physical is out the door in 5-7 years. Book it.

Zero resale value in digital - your account gets hacked or banned and there goes thousands or tens of thousands of dollars of games.

Physical will be around for at minimum another decade, and backwards compatibility will likely be in demand for the PS6 onward, even if it's relegated to an external drive.

Poor rural internet connectivity is also an issue for digital.
 

Deleted member 49482

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 8, 2018
3,302
Physical is out the door in 5-7 years. Book it.
I was a staunch "physical media" guy when it came to games all the way up to this month. I would even pass on playing certain games if I couldn't get a physical copy with all digital content on-disc (I even imported a few games so I could get the "definitive editions").

However, this month I started selling my physical game collection and converting some of it to digital. The tipping point was me coming to grips with your prediction: I think there is a high degree of likelihood that we get a console with no disc drive by the PS6-PS7 era. Assuming backwards compatibility, I'd rather have a digital library that is playable into the future rather than a physical library that becomes increasingly more difficult to play as years go by.
 

Drensch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
742
I don't see the correlation at all. How does digital lead to this? Why hasn't it happened in pc yet?
Hasn't it? The physical market requires at least a base level of "finished" game. Publishers like Activision have already conned people into getting on board for free play testing. The lack of a physical market will just accelerate this. Preorder to get in on the Alpha will become more common. Avenues of revenue that did not exist will now exist. The console market is a slightly different beast, that hasn't been exposed to this stuff yet.
 

Reinhard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,587
I 100% believe it. If nothing else, games like Control were less visible to my friends who are PC gamers because they only really use Steam and maybe Origin.

Also, people are really sick of having a friends list fragmented across several launchers. Discord is great for voice chat but people want the Right Click -> Join Game experience.
Yep, I only bought a few indie games on EGS and that was when they were deeply discounted. My friends are the same too, passing on all the AAA games released there too. We only use Steam and Uplay for the most part, although PC Game Pass is now popular due to being able to get it for so cheap or free for awhile. But with GamePass when I have to pay $10 a month, I only see myself subscribing like once or twice a year when some huge titles release.

It's annoying to not have universal friends list or all the great features Steam gives like universal gamepad support, so the only way I consider other platforms is large discounts, which defeats the purpose of companies starting their own storefront.
 

ImaLawy3r

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jun 6, 2019
619
How long until the likes of EA and Activision start demanding to be able to have their own publisher store fronts on consoles; seperated from XBL/PSN...
I'm okay with this with a few conditions. Let all the big publishers have their own storefront but all of their games should have cross-save and cross-play.
 
Oct 27, 2017
242
I guess we'll never get a very accurate picture in regards to first-party Nintendo software sales in an NPD thread, since the company doesn't share digital figures.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,270
Hasn't it? The physical market requires at least a base level of "finished" game. Publishers like Activision have already conned people into getting on board for free play testing. The lack of a physical market will just accelerate this. Preorder to get in on the Alpha will become more common. Avenues of revenue that did not exist will now exist. The console market is a slightly different beast, that hasn't been exposed to this stuff yet.

What's the base level of finished game for physical? We've had cases of huge day 1 updates regardless of physical or digital.

I honestly think devs and publishers want to put out quality products. I really believe this for devs especially. I don't think they're flippant about the hard work they put for these games.

So I'll never agree with folk like you who think devs are going to lower their standards because of how we buy games.

On the publisher side...i think it'll cost them too much money to half ass big titles intentionally.
 

Deeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
966
United States
They won't be the first and the last to try such a thing and not fail in actually properly competing against Steam. Uplay, Origin, EGS have tried thus far and failed.
The type of storefront and platform that can give steam competition is the one which does its preparations to aggressively compete against steam without pulling the exclusivity nonsense and attack steam with what it does best. Feature-set and deep discounts. Eventually I do see such a digital platform taking over at least 50% of steam's market share if not overtaking it.

At the end of the day I see these companies making a deal like what EA has done with steam and converge their services Instead of taking them head on.

I think it's less about competition and more about the chance of making a sale where they keep 100% of revenues. I don't think Square Enix would keep their games exclusively on their launcher (I used to think so, but after the weird Bethesda thing, I don't think that any more).
 

tmarg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,690
Kalamazoo
It's nice to see an analyst willing to (accurately) describe the EGS nonsense as deemphasizing consumer experience. The amount of gaslighting from the enthusiast press on this subject has been staggering.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,966
Don't be surprised if both Microsoft and Sony offer digital only consoles at launch for $100 less than the disc version. Even though a disc drive doesn't cost $100, if they know the consumer can only buy digital from their storefront, which means higher profit margins, they would be willing to take a bigger loss upfront with the guarantee that early adopters will spend a ton on their store.
Sign me up and I have a feeling these things would sell like gangbusters
 

elzeus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,887
Don't be surprised if both Microsoft and Sony offer digital only consoles at launch
Don't be surprised if Sony announces that games licences won't be tied to discs (online drm) before launch. Microsoft won't fight them on it because they want the same thing. Sony has only said that there will be physical games on the PS5 and have not clarified that the licences are tied to the disc like this gen.
 

Nax

Hero of Bowerstone
Member
Oct 10, 2018
6,672
Don't be surprised if Sony announces that games licences won't be tied to discs (online drm) before launch. Microsoft won't fight them on it because they want the same thing. Sony has only said that there will be physical games on the PS5 and have not clarified that the licences are tied to the disc like this gen.
Scary thought. At that point you would basically be forced to go digital.
 

DigSCCP

Banned
Nov 16, 2017
4,201
My suspicion that you are going with PS is because consoles are easy to get into, cheaper than a powerful PC and exclusives?

Why would that change just because this content is available on another more expensive and complicated platform?

Even if you do switch platforms I think most people who get into playstation is because they know they will get great quality and varied content at an affordable price and easy setup. I doubt these 106 million who bought into playstation will suddenly set up gaming PCs because that content is available elsewhere. At least I dont think this will happen in enough numbers to be anything more than statistical noise IMO.

I think where this strategy will become challenging is when streaming actually takes off in the next 20 years and that is where things could get interesting. Because then the setup will no longer become a concern and ease of access will be at an all time high. That is what Sony needs to prepare for and worry about. They should not be worrying about putting their content on PC. In fact more people playing their content before streaming takes off the better position they would be in for a streaming and platform agnostic future that Zedark was talking about!

Actually no.
I just don´t see logic anymore of owning multiple plataforms, I don´t have time to play all that I have in one anyway.
But if I can have just one with even more options why wouldn´t I ?
The thing here is not the 106 million, but how many would follow the same route ?
And how many of those are the same kind of consumer that I´m ? That kind that Sony said a while ago that spent "more than US1600" since the gen begun ?
These are well informed consumers, enthusiastics that could easily jump off the ship.
How many are they ? I don´t know.
But then I ask you how many copies of their titles would they sell on PC ? How many AAA single player games have sold let´s say...3 million ? People tend to overstimate PC sales.
Will the few millions, if their titles hit the million count on PC, that they would sell on PC would be enough to cover the lost of this kind of consumer ? We don´t know.
When streaming becomes a thing they don´t need to worry about content, their content is already among the most desired of the industry, they have to worry about the quality of their streaming service, which looks like they are already doing with their Azure initiative.
But anyway if they in fact think it´s a good option to bring their content to PC they really need to own their own storefront. Control over your own content it´s fundamental today and will be even more in the streming future.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,347
They won't do that. They also don't want to piss off an entire platform. Sony or MS would never allow that.

It just takes one of them in exchange for Exclusivity of the whole portfolio to get them to buckle. "Rockstar games only on Xbox on the Rockstar Xbox store or directly on Xbox" There are many publishers who would use that to get a foot in the door.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,820
"Oh, the biggest gaming retailers are now 1st party digital platforms. That's a lot of margin/royalties. Maximizing/owning ones distribution platforms/strategy key to 2020s performance."

This is exactly why it makes no sense to believe that Sony is about to start releasing all their games on PC anytime soon. They have every reason to want to keep people on the PSN store.

Logic would dictate that if Sony was going to port all their games to PC they would be opening a PSN PC store.
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
So that 30% cut isn't going away anytime soon then is it?

Secret truth is that 30% is really really good.

Physical equivalent is in range of 45% (20% for Sony/MS, 25% to distributor according to Ubisoft.)

And three major bonuses:

- No used games, which they get 0%.
- No manufacturing fees
- No unsold inventory which you might need to buyback

And more likely to buy DLC because you didn't resell your game.
 

Vito

One Winged Slayer - Formerly Undead Fantasy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,036
Don't be surprised if Sony announces that games licences won't be tied to discs (online drm) before launch. Microsoft won't fight them on it because they want the same thing. Sony has only said that there will be physical games on the PS5 and have not clarified that the licences are tied to the disc like this gen.
tenor.gif
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,632
Don't be surprised if Sony announces that games licences won't be tied to discs (online drm) before launch. Microsoft won't fight them on it because they want the same thing. Sony has only said that there will be physical games on the PS5 and have not clarified that the licences are tied to the disc like this gen.
#PS5NoDRM
 

Kevinception

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 18, 2020
303
Logic would dictate that if Sony was going to port all their games to PC they would be opening a PSN PC store.

Yep.

The inevitability for Sony is to have a store front that works outside of PlayStation consoles (the inevitability is for a Sony version of XCloud and Gamepass, but baby steps)

i believe the rumors that they are asking devs to also consider PC versions when making playstation games. I think they are heading towards finally putting effort into PSNow. As both a storefront as well as a premier streaming service

Its already a streaming service to get Playstation games on the PC, but it's a poor one.

I have no doubt this is leading to the ability to download Sony games through PSN Now onto your pc and play them there. So you have the option of streaming or playing locally (much how it already works on the PlayStation)

As long as you are using the PsNow service, Sony shouldn't care that you don't buy PlayStations
 

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,264
The day video games end up being solely digital is the day I bow out of modern gaming and hit the retros from that moment onward.
 

Clowns

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Don't be surprised if Sony announces that games licences won't be tied to discs (online drm) before launch. Microsoft won't fight them on it because they want the same thing. Sony has only said that there will be physical games on the PS5 and have not clarified that the licences are tied to the disc like this gen.
I'd be surprised because the PS4 not having that was such a huge boon for them compared to the competition and it clearly hasn't harmed their business at all.
Why would they rock the boat, when digital is gaining in popularity anyways?