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Nov 23, 2019
7,367
RRT4 ▶︎▶︎▶︎
Still makes it tragic. The assumption that innovation necessary means a better world is highly debatable. It's not just factory work that's under threat from AI innovations: other examples include transportation, and also more high-skilled fields like radiology. And that's just with the current state of AI. As AI becomes better, many more fields will be replaced by non-human work. So much non-scientific work is under threat from this. And no, you can't just boost everyone up to be scientists or doctors. Nor can you let them just sit and do nothing under a universal basic income, as human beings detoriate without a sense of value. The threat of AI is quite fundamental to society and requires a complete rethinking of economy as soon as possible.
There's no AI (I mean real AI, not that marketing term form Google/etc) and there won't be AI even in 100 years from now. Fear of AI right now is literally fear mongering. What we have right now is just "machine learning", so many workers are safe.

As fo the rest - progress is good, automation is good. This is why we live much better now than 500 or 1000 years ago.
 

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,989
Still makes it tragic, even if it's inevitable. The assumption that innovation necessary means a better world is highly debatable. It's not just factory work that's under threat from AI innovations: other examples include transportation, and also more high-skilled fields like radiology. And that's just with the current state of AI. As AI becomes better, many more fields will be replaced by non-human work. So much non-scientific work is under threat from this. And no, you can't just boost everyone up to be scientists or doctors. Nor can you let them just sit and do nothing under a universal basic income, as human beings detoriate without a sense of value. The threat of AI is quite fundamental to society and requires a complete rethinking of economy as soon as possible.
AI is still crappy and the AI that is done is basically just optimizing and learning from millions and millions of data points. AI is very statistical still and I don't see AI working without human data. Data is free right now but it should be paid for eventually. That is what will happen to the economy. There is no need to worry about all this stuff because companies need a strong economy to make profit.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,909
There's no AI (I mean real AI, not that marketing term form Google/etc) and there won't be AI even in 100 years from now. Fear of AI right now is literally fear mongering. What we have right now is just "machine learning", so many workers are safe.

As fo the rest - progress is good, automation is good. This is why we leave much better now than 500 or 1000 years ago.
Depending on where you live it's debatable if people largely are better off than they were 30, 40, 50 years ago. Which is sort of the point, there's a socioeconomic impact to automation (or globalization) which means "progress" isn't quite the straight march upward you're claiming here. It's much more complex than that.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,293
This time the topic is pretty original for our standards I'll give you that
 

NPTinker

Member
May 2, 2020
1,025
I have been a lurker in this thread for a year or two now and this is one of the weirdest topics
 

Zedark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,719
The Netherlands
Of course AI hasn't nearly reached general intelligence - and that's why science, as well as creative and social jobs are safe for a long while still. But lower-skilled or otherwise automatable work don't need general intelligence in order to be replaceable by machine learning, and those jobs turn out to be quite varied (even transport will probably be replaced relatively soon, and factories are generally quite easily replaced by full automation).

Of course we live better than in 1500, but it's fallacious reasoning to assume that any steady forward March from 1500 to 2000 will therefore mean that it always will bring positive developments. If we can automate most of the jobs away due to the forward March of technology, we have a very pressing social topic to contend with.
 

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,989
I certainly wouldn't agree with this - there are many legitimate concerns that machine learning will result in near-human level AI in just a few decades shared by many influential scientists/futurists.
Look at Google Translate. It works for about 50% but you can't really use it reliably. The moment human intellect, experience and creativity plays a role machine learning falls flat. The areas that are used by machine learning are also very dependent on data provided by humans. Face recognition is done by feeding millions of faces and training the computer to recognize faces. The moment that data stops, machine learning can't do anything. There will come a time that this data will be paid for and that is how jobs will be created.
 

KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
Technology is fine, automation doing work that humans had to do to make lives easier is fine. The problem is that most of the world has so firmly bought into capitalism and the market that the only value 99.9% of people have is their time and motor skills doing labor for the capitalists. Taping and soldering parts of toys together so they can earn enough money to eat and sleep in secure place.

If people are not taken care of because they have been displaced from working, that is in fact tragic.
 

zroid

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,785
Canada
Technology is fine, automation doing work that humans had to do to make lives easier is fine. The problem is that most of the world has so firmly bought into capitalism and the market that the only value 99.9% of people have is their time and motor skills doing labor for the capitalists. Taping and soldering parts of toys together so they can earn enough money to eat and sleep in secure place.

If people are not taken care of because they have been displaced from working, that is in fact tragic.
100% agreed. The other fellow's assertion that "innovation" is always good is some ludicrous rhetoric, but yes, it is not by necessity that technological advancements which perform human tasks have a negative impact on society. Rather, this is the bargain which society has made for us. There is no safety net for most people.

This time the topic is pretty original for our standards I'll give you that

You're welcome :P
 

hiska-kun

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,410
(Taiwan)
Media Create Sales Week 26, 2020 (22 Jun - 28 Jun)


01./01. [PS4] The Last of Us Part II (Sony Interactive Entertainment) {2020.06.19}
02./05. [NSW] Ring Fit Adventure (Nintendo) {2019.10.31}
03./04. [NSW] Animal Crossing: New Horizons (Nintendo) {2020.03.20}
04./00. [NSW] Brigandine: The Legend of Runersia (Justdan) {2020.06.25}
05./02. [PS4] Persona 5 Scramble: The Phantom Strikers (Sega) {2020.06.18}

Top 5

NSW - 3
PS4 - 2

(South Korea)
Media Create Sales Week 26, 2020 22 Jun - 28 Jun)


01./02. [NSW] Animal Crossing: New Horizons (Nintendo) {2020.03.20}
02./04. [NSW] Ring Fit Adventure (Nintendo) {2019.10.18}
03./01. [PS4] The Last of Us Part II (Sony Interactive Entertainment) {2020.06.19}
04./00. [NSW] Pokemon Sword / Shield (Pokemon Co.) {2019.11.15}
05./00. [PS4] The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Zero - Kai (Clouded Leopard) {2020.06.25}

Top 5

NSW - 3
PS4 - 2

gnn.gamer.com.tw

MediaCreate 6 月 22 日~6 月 28 日一週銷售排行榜 《幻想大陸戰記》新作登場

巴哈姆特 GNN 與日本遊戲業界分析公司 MediaCreate 合作,每週定期刊載由 MediaCreate 調查與統計的日本、台灣與韓國地區家用遊樂器主機遊戲軟體的一週銷售排行榜,供玩家參考。 《幻想大陸戰記:盧納基亞傳說》 當週新作數量較前週來得少,入榜的有 Switch 新作《幻想大陸戰記:盧納基亞傳說》與 PS4 新作《英雄傳說 碧之軌跡:改》。前週
 

GuEiMiRrIRoW

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,530
Brazil
PlayStation seems to be transitioning from a device of the people to a luxury "Sony" device of the 80s and 90s. It'll probably do Vita numbers and publishers big and small will be happy with their international multiplatform sales.

Sega and Level 5 feel like all that remains of the mid-tier studios that need to adapt to a post PS5 market to survive.

one of the best explanations of what is happenings with gaming consoles I have ever heard. It's really like that. Sony need to pay attention before some company like Apple come out of nowhere and eat their lunch.
 

zroid

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,785
Canada
back on topic, I'm curious, Nintendo has always historically had strong evergreen titles, but I rarely see them on Sony consoles. What are the strongest evergreen titles on Playstation? Currently there don't seem to be any, but what about healthier platforms like PSP/PS2/etc.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,909
back on topic, I'm curious, Nintendo has always historically had strong evergreen titles, but I rarely see them on Sony consoles. What are the strongest evergreen titles on Playstation? Currently there don't seem to be any, but what about healthier platforms like PSP/PS2/etc.
Monster Hunter Portable 2nd G
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
AI won't be able to replace human workers until it can procrastinate by posting about a hypothetical Monster Hunter Switch on Era.
 

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,743
back on topic, I'm curious, Nintendo has always historically had strong evergreen titles, but I rarely see them on Sony consoles. What are the strongest evergreen titles on Playstation? Currently there don't seem to be any, but what about healthier platforms like PSP/PS2/etc.
Minecraft?
 

PillFencer

Banned
Nov 15, 2018
2,431
back on topic, I'm curious, Nintendo has always historically had strong evergreen titles, but I rarely see them on Sony consoles. What are the strongest evergreen titles on Playstation? Currently there don't seem to be any, but what about healthier platforms like PSP/PS2/etc.
Monster Hunter Portable 2nd G
Yeah that's the big one. A smaller but also good one would be Hot Shots Golf 4:


2003 CY {2002.12.30 - 2003.12.28} 005. [PS2] Hot Shots Golf 4 <SPT> (Sony Computer Entertainment) {2003.11.27} (¥5.800) - 875.252 / 875.252
2004 CY {2003.12.29 - 2004.12.26} 055. [PS2] Hot Shots Golf 4 <SPT> (Sony Computer Entertainment) {2003.11.27} (¥5.800) - 207.827 / 1.083.079

2004 CY {2003.12.29 - 2004.12.26} 131. [PS2] Hot Shots Golf 4 [1/2][PlayStation 2 the Best] <SPT> (Sony Computer Entertainment) {2004.07.08} (¥3.800) - 103.106 / 103.106
2005 CY {2004.12.27 - 2005.12.25} 103. [PS2] Hot Shots Golf 4 [1/2][PlayStation 2 the Best] <SPT> (Sony Computer Entertainment) {2004.07.08} (¥3.800) - 125.326 / 228.432

2005 CY {2004.12.27 - 2005.12.25} 284. [PS2] Hot Shots Golf 4 [2/2][PlayStation 2 the Best] <SPT> (Sony Computer Entertainment) {2005.11.02} (¥2.800) - 38.863 / 38.863
2006 CY {2005.12.26 - 2006.12.31} 082. [PS2] Hot Shots Golf 4 [2/2][PlayStation 2 the Best] <SPT> (Sony Computer Entertainment) {2005.11.02} (¥2.800) - 174.974 / 213.837
2007 CY {2007.01.01 - 2007.12.30} 133. [PS2] Hot Shots Golf 4 [2/2][PlayStation 2 the Best] <SPT> (Sony Computer Entertainment) {2005.11.02} (¥2.800) - 128.227 / 342.064
2008 CY {2007.12.31 - 2008.12.28} 266. [PS2] Hot Shots Golf 4 [2/2][PlayStation 2 the Best] <SPT> (Sony Computer Entertainment) {2005.11.02} (¥2.800) - 49.945 / 392.009
2009 CY {2008.12.29 - 2009.12.27} 560. [PS2] Hot Shots Golf 4 [2/2][PlayStation 2 the Best] <SPT> (Sony Computer Entertainment) {2005.11.02} (¥2.800) - 13.080 / 405.089

All versions combined:

2003 CY - 875.252
2004 CY - 310.933 / 1.186.185
2005 CY - 164.189 / 1.350.374
2006 CY - 174.974 / 1.525.348
2007 CY - 128.227 / 1.653.575
2008 CY - 49.945 / 1.703.520
2009 CY - 13.080 / 1.716.600
 
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test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
But the Ps4 development cost is lower because it's a better optimized device than the Switch, so

/k
I thought it was the other way around, that Switch was cheaper to develope for ;) Hehe :P (yeah, i know its a joke hehe, but i think i've see i've seen the same arguement has been used for the Switch too, and therefor it could be more profitable =) Which can be true, just to point that out, but if less optimizing (or rather less work) is needed, this can also lead to cheaper development costs as well. But in the end, it really depends on the game and how complex it is to make, and thats what will determine the total development costs, regardless of the platform =)). EDIT 2: I rewrote some of the post to make my point more clear :)

---

EDIT: Regarding the automated factory talked above,eventhough automation can have something positive sides with it in terms of taking technology forward, i agree that automation can also has it downsides when it comes to replacing human work force, indeed, but when it comes to this specific factory that makes these PS4, it might not be that it leads to much jobs being lost. It says that it takes 30 seconds to make a PS4. Thats 120 units an hour. If the production goes around the clock (which i kinda doubt, but lets just use that as an example), thats 2880 units a day, about 87k units a month, or about 1 million units a year. It would be less if they're not going 24 hours a day all year around. Sony has been shipping like ~20 million units in a year, so a lot more work force is required.
 
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KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
I thought it was the other way around, that Switch was cheaper to develope for ;) Hehe :P (yeah, i know its a joke, but if someone has said that the PS4 is cheaper to develope for as in general, i think i've seen the same arguement has been used for the Switch too :P But in the end, it really depends on the game and how complex it is to make, regardless of the platform =)).

---

EDIT: Regarding the automated factory talked above, i agree that automation can has it downsides when it comes to replacing human work force, indeed, but when it comes to this specific factory that makes these PS4, it might not be that it leads to much jobs being lost. It says that it takes 30 seconds to make a PS4. Thats 120 units an hour. If the production goes around the clock (which i kinda doubt, but lets just use that as an example), thats 2880 units a day, about 87k units a month, or about 1 million units a year. It would be less if they're not going 24 hours a day all year around. Sony has been shipping like ~20 million units in a year, so a lot more work force is required.

At the rate the PS5 will sell in Japan, these robots should easily be able to keep up with demand.
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
At the rate the PS5 will sell in Japan, these robots should easily be able to keep up with demand.
Hehe, thats actually quite possible =) If not meeting 100% of the demand, it might be relatively close to it at least, i can see that happening. So its possible that we'll see a senario where most of the PS5's that are sold in Japan are also manufactured in Japan. Doing this will also save on some logistic cost (shorter distance of shipping the finished produced units). While the rest of the PS5 supply for everywhere in the world is being manufactured in China (or where it might be). I still expect China to be the biggest manufacturer of consoles for quite some time (not sure if theres any plans to move more of console manufacturing to Japan? Or to the US when it comes to Xbox).
 
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Nov 2, 2017
385
Just to be part of the most rare turn in a MC thread in a decade, i think A.I killing robots are as close to be real as the anti-gravity flying cars that all scify movies show us (and some scientist predicted would happen in this decade-century).
I think it wont be our generation that has to worry with "The Terminator"
Now there are already remote control killing robots used in the army ( Israel has some anti bombs robots, Rusia has some new Armata robo tank, US drones are robots with some A.I that helps kill civilians really quick). There are lots of robots killing humans right now, we should worry about that and not the hipotetical terminator that probably wont be created in this century.

Now back to Monster Hunter Next and MHW2 exclusives for PS5.
 
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Nov 23, 2019
7,367
RRT4 ▶︎▶︎▶︎
It says that it takes 30 seconds to make a PS4. Thats 120 units an hour.
That just one factory and one line.

From that article:
oouqDvT.png


So there will be more.

Another major point:
Rather than going where labor costs are low, companies instead have to consider proximity to where the product is consumed, the stability of power supply, access to capital.
That means instead of putting everything in one "basket" (i.e, China), now they can assemble electronics in the US, EU and other places. Same idea as data-centers, only for real manufacturing.
 
Nov 23, 2019
7,367
RRT4 ▶︎▶︎▶︎
The weirdest turn in a media create thread yet.
Economics, manufacturing, logistic should be part of discussion in sales thread. It's all connected.

And definitely not posts like these:
But how big will the AI's breasts be by then?
instead of continuously increasing the size of two breasts, innovation will eventually lead to development of a third breast
^ it reminds me of kindergarten.
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
Just to be part of the most rare turn in a MC thread in a decade, i think A.I killing robots are as close to be real as the anti-gravity flying cars that all scify movies show us (and some scientist predicted would happen in this decade-century).
I think it wont be our generation that has to worry with "The Terminator"
Now there are already remote control killing robots used in the army ( Israel has some anti bombs robots, Rusia has some new Armata robo tank, US drones are robots with some A.I that helps kill civilians really quick). There are lots of robots killing humans right now, we should worry about that and not the hipotetical terminator that probably wont be created in this century.

Now back to Monster Hunter Next and MHW2 exclusives for PS5.
Maybe i misunderstand what you mean, but i dont think there are any drones that have some A.I that decides on their own to attack people or not, especially not civilians. That would be really bad, indeed.


That just one factory and one line.

From that article:
oouqDvT.png


So there will be more.

Another major point:

That means instead of putting everything in one "basket" (i.e, China), now they can assemble electronics in the US, EU and other places. Same idea as data-centers, only for real manufacturing.
Sure, i know that its just one production line, but i thought it was the only one that was up and running at the moment. And yeah, having more regional production can have its advantages, like for the enviorment /cuts down on the shipping distance). I just hope that it wont mean lost jobs, and that those jobs are relocated elsewere at least (like when Microsoft recently closed almost all of their retail stores, no one lost their jobs).
 
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OP
OP
Chris1964

Chris1964

SalesEra Genius
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,155
Update for my favorite publisher's releases for 2020 and later. The battle between Switch and Bandai Namco studios under Harada's control begins soon.

2020/01/10 [NSW/PC] Super Robot Wars X (B.B.Studio)
2020/01/16 [PS4/XB1/PC] Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot (CyberConnect2)
2020/02/27 [PS4/XB1/PC] One Punch Man: A Hero Nobody Knows (Spike Chunsoft)
2020/03/12 [NSW/PS4/XB1/PC] My Hero: One's Justice 2 (Byking)
2020/03/26 [NSW/PS4/XB1/PC] One Piece: Pirate Warriors 4 (Omega Force)
2020/04/02 [NSW] Kotoba no Puzzle: Mojipittan Encore (Monkeycraft)
2020/04/23 [NSW] Naruto Shippuden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 4 - Road to Boruto (CyberConnect2?)
2020/06/18 [NSW] Namcot Collection (B.B.Studio)
2020/06/25 [NSW/PC] Mr. Driller: Drill Land (Infinity Co.)
2020/07/09 [PS4/XB1/PC] Sword Art Online: Alicization Lycoris (Aquria)
2020/07/30 [PS4] Mobile Suit Gundam Extreme Vs. MaxiBoost On (Bandai Namco Studios)
2020/07/30 [PS4] Doraemon: Story of Seasons (Brownies)
2020/08/27 [NSW/PS4/PC] Captain Tsubasa: Rise of New Champions (Tamsoft)
2020/08/27 [NSW] Jump Force: Deluxe Edition (Spike Chunsoft)
2020/09/17 [NSW] Pro Baseball Famista 2020 (Eighting)

2020/**/** [PS4/PC] The Idolm@ster: Starlit Season (Bandai Namco Studios)
2020/**/** [NSW/PS4/XB1/PC] Digimon Survive (Witchcraft)
2020/**/** [NSW/PS4/XB1/PC] Little Nightmares II (Tarsier Studios)

****/**/** [PS4/XB1/PC] Elden Ring (From Software)
****/**/** [PS4/XB1/PC] Tales of Arise (Bandai Namco Studios)
****/**/** [NSW/PS4/PS5] Super Robot Wars 30th Anniversary (B.B.Studio)
****/**/** [PS4/XB1/PS5/XSX/PC] Scarlet Nexus (Bandai Namco Studios)
 
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Nov 2, 2017
385
Maybe i misunderstand what you mean, but i dont think there are any drones that have some A.I that decides on their own to attack people or not, especially not civilians. That would be really bad, indeed.
I could be wrong, but i remember some documental that shows some US drones has bombs that get help to improve the "aiming" with some kind of A.I that correct the path in his way to the ground. but anyway it was a documental. Just wanted to be part of this A.l talk. lol And is the soldiers who decide to use the robots to attack civilians not the A.I
 
Nov 23, 2019
7,367
RRT4 ▶︎▶︎▶︎
I just hope that it wont mean lost jobs, and that those jobs are relocated elsewere at least (like when Microsoft recently closed almost all of their retail stores, no one lost their jobs).
Keeping redundant ineffective jobs would make things worse, not better. What you suggest is basically a planned economy. It will tank economy in the long run, see what happened with USSR.

There are much better solutions, like unemployment compensation program, grants for small businesses, "basic income", etc.
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
I could be wrong, but i remember some documental that shows some US drones has bombs that get help to improve the "aiming" with some kind of A.I that correct the path in his way to the ground. but anyway it was a documental. Just wanted to be part of this A.l talk. lol And is the soldiers who decide to use the robots to attack civilians not the A.I
Ah ok, i see what you mean, and yeah, i think they have for example some laser guidance (which might be also controllled by some A.I too) for the missiles that the drones can fire, so thats probably true, indeed. It just sounded a bit to me like you maybe meant that there were US drones that were designed with A.I to more specifically target and kill civilians, and i dont think thats the case, so i mostly wanted to comment on that (unfortunately civilans do sometimes get killed in such attacks though :( Even if they are not the target). But with A.I deciding on its own, i thought at first that maybe you meant something else instead, thats why i mentioned that i might have misunderstood what you meant. But i see what you mean now, so no problem =)


Keeping redundant ineffective jobs would make things worse, not better. What you suggest is basically a planned economy. It will tank economy in the long run, see what happened with USSR.

There are much better solutions, like unemployment compensation program, grants for small businesses, "basic income", etc.
Well, i'm not really suggesting much in specific, i just hope that people will still have an income, regardless of what the solution will be =) When Microsoft reallocated the work, all of those jobs have a purpose.

EDIT: What happened in the USSR in terms of production, by the way?
 
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Tlozbj

Banned
Jun 26, 2020
608
Puerto Rico
I have been a lurker in this thread for a year or two now and this is one of the weirdest topics

Same here. Been lurking for some years and just recently made an account, and this may be the weirdest the thread has gone. But hey, it at least isn't another MH or 2D/3D DQ discussion :v
Unless someone suggests that Capcom is using robots or AI to make a MH for Switch and that is why it is taking so long.