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Mr_F_Snowman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,879
My point was the relative performance of each game to the market it is in.

Splatoon sold more absolutely overseas, but relative to western markets conditions and size, it can only be considered a hit, and certainly not COD level smash hit.

Relative to the market conditions and size in Japan, Splatoon is a smash hit.

Yeh sure but its still not where the "bulk" of its sales come from and Japan is currently the worlds third largest market for gaming if you include mobile games (behind China and the US) so the entire argument is questionable.

Guess the better way to put it would be that is has more cultural significance and is more popular in terms of the ratio of population / sales in Japan than elsewhere which is certainly true
 

Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
Japan evidently isn't in terminal decline when it comes to Nintendo software.*shrugs*
 

_Dog

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
229
If Sony did everything right, it would have probably sold "well", yes, but I remain convinced from the beginning that there is much more nostalgia for the NES/SNES era than for the PS1 era; that's partly (just partly) why so many pixel art games are released, while we see very few low poly indie games. And most look like absolute trash.
You'd be mistaken, people are in great demand for an N64 Classic. The PS1 Classic could've been something amazing.
 

DragoonKnight

Alt Account
Banned
Dec 12, 2018
22
Yeh sure but its still not where the "bulk" of its sales come from.

OK.

Despite the common refrain that COD games are same-ly, they are not really, especially between games developed by different developers. The franchise has each yearly game developed by 3 massive AAA studios with a combined head count that probably dwarfs all of EPD that works on Splatoon and has more operational flexibility to boot due to labor conditions in the west. This is how COD keeps itself fresh every year.

Nintendo does not have the resources to do that unless they want to just be the Splatoon Company. Not to mention that COD does those numbers on the back of a expanding western market, while Splatoon's explosive popularity is largely confined to Japan (it does OK in the west, but its not setting charts on fire like CoDs) which is a market in terminal decline.

CTRL+F Bulk.

Japan is currently the worlds third largest market for gaming if you include mobile games (behind China and the US) so the entire argument is questionable.

Guess the better way to put it would be that is has more cultural significance and is more popular in terms of the ratio of population / sales in Japan than elsewhere which is certainly true

I was never talking about anything else. Plus, mobile isn't relevant to the discussion, Console to console market wise Japan is 1/5 the size of the American console market, and 1/4 the size of the European Market. Splatoons performance is relatively weaker in these much bigger markets despite stronger absolute sales.
 
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Procheno

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 14, 2018
2,879
Ah, right. I should probably put it here before I forget.

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Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
xOA1HNd.jpg


This a real headscratcher of a collaboration.(God Eater 3 costume for Neko Tomo)
 
Jan 10, 2018
7,207
Tokyo
Your graph itself does not support the assumption that the drop is due to NSO, as NSO requirement is known way before before the actual implementation and would have an earlier effect. By your own admission that new content did not noticeably drive sales at all.
.

I fail to see the connection between the fact that a single player DLC did not drive the sale, and the fact that NSO's introduction perfectly matches a significant drop in the sales of the game

What you are seeing is a typical summer spike because kids get the summer off and purchasing starts, then a fall when kids go back to school. There is little way of separating the "end summer" effect with the "NSO effect".
This does not correspond to the data.
Summer holidays typically finish around the 20th of August. Most purchases after that are school related. You can see a significant drop at the end of Obon in the graph. But the drop due to NSO occurs more than a month later.

What is heavily ignored in this analysis is that the game would face natural barriers to increasing its user base since it is approaching 50% attach rate with total existing machines, one year on. Basically, by this time, anyone who wants Splatoon would have brought Splatoon.

And the market would saturate abruptly specifically on the week NSO is released? Seems far fetched to me.

You will not be able to separate the "lack of new updates going forward" effect from "natural decline as potential market dries up". Not every game can be GTAV where every new user picks it up, in fact, most games do not behave like GTAV at all.

This remains to be seen. If the baseline after the holidays is below 5000 per week for example, without any significant increase during holidays, it'll be difficult to find a more consistent explanation than the fact that people are less interested in purchasing a game as service without the service. But this is pure speculation, Neither you nor I know what Splatoon's sales are gonna be after the holidays.

Not to mention if NSO is the major barrier, then a new Splatoon will certainly do worse than Splatoon 2.

Cartidge_games already answered on that point. Larger install base (we both make the assumption that the next Splatoon will absolutely work on the current Switch as well), larger number of subscribers at that time, incentive for people to pay for NSO...

Furthermore, if Nintendo wants to push the IP going forward, it will need to spend heavily on aggresive marketing going forward to reach people they have not yet reached (and they already reached 3 million Japanese by conservative estimates), and those marketing plans can take years to be ready.

No one said the game would release in the next 6 months. I said summer 2020. That's longer than the duration during which Splatoon 2 has been on the market.

Can it happen in 2020? Maybe, but the marketing plans will have to be ready by then, and if there is a new generation of Switch ready then. My own take is that 2021 sounds more plausible.

So overall, you're not that far from 2020 either.
2021 is a possibility if Nintendo is concerned with franchise fatigue (Splatoon 1 and 2 were really close in terms of release). But in this case, stopping the content updates this month is a mistake in my opinion.

Finally, I do not expect Nintendo to release any game not compatible with the current switch before at least 2022. It's a successful machine, with an ever growing install base, and they would alienate many people if a new hardware was to be released with exclusive games within 4 years.

This Splatoon thing is slowly becoming a matter of "someone is wrong on the internet". I'll absolutely bring back the subject next week or the ones after if I feel it to be relevant, but I'm gonna stop here for now. Thanks for the insights.
 
Jan 10, 2018
7,207
Tokyo
You'd be mistaken, people are in great demand for an N64 Classic.

What makes you say that? It's a genuine question. The console was only moderately successful and most people agree that its games aged badly; I would even dare to say, more than the PS1.

Personally, the N64 was my favorite Nintendo console before the Switch, but I have weird tastes.
 

Mr_F_Snowman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,879
OK.



CTRL+F Bulk.



I was never talking about anything else. Plus, mobile isn't relevant to the discussion, Console to console market wise Japan is 1/5 the size of the American console market, and 1/4 the size of the European Market. Splatoons performance is relatively weaker in these much bigger markets despite stronger absolute sales.

Haha why did I see "bulk" in there? Eyeball failure. Pretty much in agreement anyway, not sure there is much Nintendo could do in the West to make it any popular than it is though given the gaming climate in those areas. Going to be the opposite with other titles like Metroid Prime 4 which will likely perform far more strongly in the West than in Japan (similarly to BoTW)
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
3+ years between entries isn't emulating what those two franchises do, though?

When people were asking for God Eater: 3 on switch, Namco got confused and thought people were asking for God Eater :3 on switch

It still makes more sense to emulate what Mario Kart and Smash Bros do and have it 1 per system. That clearly hasn't led to them missing out on sales and if anything, the expectation that you're only going to get that one game on the system, prevents people who end up coming in late, holding out for the sequel, and then never actually purchasing the game when a sequel doesn't come or comes after they've lost interest.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
I mean obviously it's not sole factor but it's kinda needed factor to hit really big in todays Japanese market. PS2 success was well over a decade ago. After that we haven't had a single really successful pure home console. I mean even Wii hit the wall earlier in japan than in west. Why? PS3 got kinda support PS2 did and sold under half of it. Why? I made mobile comparison because obviously why it's so huge market especially in Japan is because people love portability of it. Japan was first place to really embrace it. Just like before it DS and PSP sold relatively far more in japan than in any other market (and that continued with 3DS and Vita). Nintendo handhelds (or home consoles) not being success elsewhere in Asia has more to do with other reasons like Nintendo not having even official presence in many markets.
Your timeframe for the decline of consoles also coincides with Japanese publishers trending towards content oriented toward the Western market and the death or irrelevance of many smaller studios in the console space.
Also, for as popular as the DS was in Japan, the Game Boy predecessors were also insanely popular there AND in the West. So we have to stop framing the narrative as though Japan only likes handhelds when the reality is that the the Western market for handhelds declined while Japan's didn't.

Handhelds being more appealing isn't the real story here, it's that consoles became LESS appealing, so naturally, you have to look at why that is, and handheld popularity isn't responsible for that. An economic downturn combined with Japanese publishers either catering almost entirely to the Western market or outright being pushed out of the console market because they were too small to compete in that space (see: Game Republic, Treasure, etc.) is the reason, nothing more.
 
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corasaur

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,988
What makes you say that? It's a genuine question. The console was only moderately successful and most people agree that its games aged badly; I would even dare to say, more than the PS1.

Personally, the N64 was my favorite Nintendo console before the Switch, but I have weird tastes.

There's probably a great demand for an n64 classic from whoever grew up with the thing. I'd imaginethat it's possible to have social circles where every young adult is 10x more nostalgic for the n64 than nes or snes. We're just not as huge a potential market as that for the last two classic minis
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
I know but I was mentioning common statements and also I'm pretty sure Nintendo has a pretty big say in terms of Pokémon development planning strategy.

I don't think they really do. Nintendo let their partners have a lot of free reign. Like Game Freak can declined to have Pokémon in Smash despite Nintendo owing the IP.

Pokémon Go also has little involvement with Nintendo.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
It still makes more sense to emulate what Mario Kart and Smash Bros do and have it 1 per system. That clearly hasn't led to them missing out on sales and if anything, the expectation that you're only going to get that one game on the system, prevents people who end up coming in late, holding out for the sequel, and then never actually purchasing the game when a sequel doesn't come or comes after they've lost interest.
I just can't say I agree. I'm not asking for smash ultimate 2 on switch, that game feels like more of an event, but Mario Kart has had two entries per generation since the GameCube.
Since Splatoon came out so early on Switch, no new games mean the main franchise stops being supported in half a year and we wont get another game for almost 5 years.

Really don't see how this is upsetting or controversial to some.
 

Nocturnal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,321
Splatoon 3 will launch after a more powerful revision, I'm not sure next year's revision will be considerably more powerful - I expect it to differentiate itself in a different way kinda of a Switch 1.5.
Splatoon 3 needs a more powerful version of the Switch to support a much more robust community building features, tournament scene, split-screen mode among many other things. That will likely be part of the long-term road-map. Nintendo continues to heavily invest in the eSport aspect of Splatoon, as well as maintaining its popularity via their other media efforts. I can see an anime being green-lit for the Splatoon 3 launch for example, or a movie being part of the plan.

Splatoon 2's main problem currently is Switch's price and size of the user-base the two factors are heavily linked. Having already sold to over 50% of Switch owners(when counting digital), without any eShop or retail promotions. It's still widely popular among kids and unless that popularity wanes it will do great numbers next year especially if the revision leads to a lower price for the OG Switch. Once Switch is more widely available to kids games like Splatoon 2, Minecraft, MK8D will see a considerable bump in sales.

Personally I'm interested in how Animal Crossing bringing in more girls and women to the fold would effect these games. I do wonder how popular the game is among girls and women - I've seen a much larger share of girls playing in the tournaments Nintendo organizes than any other eSport game.
I think it's more likely we see a spin-off in 2019 or 2020 that would focus on this new demographic(rhythm game, fashion game or perhaps Splatoon creatures being part of Animal Crossing as DLC). This type of efforts from Nintendo's part would ensure a few more years of tentacles.

Although I'm personally not ruling out 2020 entirely, I still think 2021 is more likely time for the game to release - since I think Switch 2.0 will be release around 2020 and it will use far more powerful technology, while battery tech might have finally progressed enough by than to make pricing viable. Splatoon 3 won't be rushed out of the gate but would probably be announced in 2020 for 2021 summer.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
On the topic of demand for post SNES classic systems, I don't think the 8-16bit era are inherently more nostalgic than N64/PS1 and I definitely don't think PS Classic is proof either way.

Snes and NES benefit from a lot of the titles being first party or easier to license.
The PS1 library that people care about is mostly 3rd party; and even in terms of first party Sony didn't put everything they had.

It's missing the titles people love the PS1 for, the non-FF7 Square Enix games, Silent Hill, Crash bandicoot franchise, Spyro franchise, etc.

Someone mentioned crash's success as proof that PS1 nostalgia is strong, and they're probably right. Issue is that they didn't put the game in.

Some may also say the generation hasn't aged as well as the nes and the snes, I strongly disagree there. At least the nes looks and plays quite roughly for new players. Imagine more would have a better time going through FF7 or OOT than the original FF or the original Zelda
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
I just can't say I agree. I'm not asking for smash ultimate 2 on switch, that game feels like more of an event, but Mario Kart has had two entries per generation since the GameCube.
2 entries per gen is still 1 entry per system, which is what I said. There is no other system that a Splatoon game could be released on this gen

Splatoon 3 needs a more powerful version of the Switch to support a much more robust community building features, tournament scene, split-screen mode among many other things.
Splatoon doesn't have split screen because they don't want it to have split screen and, given how the game is set up with a single player's profile being per save, it wouldn't make sense anyway. The community features also don't require stronger hardware. I don't see the point of releasing the game on a mere HW revision. It'll be saved for the next Switch. They're not going to cut off all the normal Switch's sold from playing the game nor will they segment the current Splatoon 2 userbase. I don't know why you guys want another one on the current Switch
 
Jan 2, 2018
10,699
I don't want to bring up Monster Hunter again, but wouldn't it be cool if Daemon X Machina could fill the void left by Capcom? Every time I look at it I get Monster Hunter vibes, just with mechas instead of the monsters. It has co-op, looks like it's loot-based and you have a wide range of weapons at disposal.

I know, of course it won't be as big as MHW, but it looks really nice, is exclusive, get's the marketing push from Nintendo and even Monster Hunter started out small...
 

corasaur

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,988
2 entries per gen is still 1 entry per system, which is what I said. There is no other system that a Splatoon game could be released on this gen


Splatoon doesn't have split screen because they don't want it to have split screen and, given how the game is set up with a single player's profile being per save, it wouldn't make sense anyway. The community features also don't require stronger hardware. I don't see the point of releasing the game on a mere HW revision. It'll be saved for the next Switch. They're not going to cut off all the normal Switch's sold from playing the game nor will they segment the current Splatoon 2 userbase. I don't know why you guys want another one on the current Switch

because i want them to find a way to make local multiplayer work.

i'm probably not gonna get it until ten years from now when the series is big enough to support a party game spinoff, though.
 

Nocturnal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,321
Splatoon doesn't have split screen because they don't want it to have split screen and, given how the game is set up with a single player's profile being per save, it wouldn't make sense anyway. The community features also don't require stronger hardware. I don't see the point of releasing the game on a mere HW revision. It'll be saved for the next Switch. They're not going to cut off all the normal Switch's sold from playing the game nor will they segment the current Splatoon 2 userbase. I don't know why you guys want another one on the current Switch

Switch hardware revision is the "next Switch", and the next Switch is going to be released around 2020/2021.
The revision we will get next year would be more like the types of revisions 3DS got(better screen, optimized battery, slight improvement in hardware optimization etc). While the one coming in one or two years after that would simply be using more powerful technology so that 3rd parties can port a lot of games to it that they couldn't manage to get to run on the OG Switch or didn't want to put the effort into releasing.
The next revision will remain backwards compatible with the OG Switch games but new big games from Nintendo will not run on OG Switch(I can see them making less demanding games available on both devices and keeping OG around as a much lower price entry to the ecosystem/paid online). They will release Splatoon 3 6-12 months after the launch of 2.0 to drive hardware sales in Japan and as long as it remains a popular property I don't see that changing. I can see Splatoon 2 still having sufficient population even after Splatoon 3 releases for at least one year because of the difference in price and slower adoption among younger users.

After the success of PS4 Pro and X1X - hardware cycles have changed and 5 years for the OG Switch will be pushing it.

Then call it an iteration not a revision. It just confuses what you're taking about. No one calls the Wii and revision of the GC just because it had full BC

But it would still be branded as a "Switch", so I don't see why I'd call it a new iteration more of a continuation.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
8,617
2 entries per gen is still 1 entry per system, which is what I said. There is no other system that a Splatoon game could be released on this gen
Applying fan assumed rules for the way Nintendo *used to* do things doesn't really work after their paradigm shift.
I don't want to bring up Monster Hunter again, but wouldn't it be cool if Daemon X Machina could fill the void left by Capcom? Every time I look at it I get Monster Hunter vibes, just with mechas instead of the monsters. It has co-op, looks like it's loot-based and you have a wide range of weapons at disposal.

I know, of course it won't be as big as MHW, but it looks really nice, is exclusive, get's the marketing push from Nintendo and even Monster Hunter started out small...
Leaning into the local co-op where you customize your mech to fight giant robot bosses like MH is probably the best way to avoid bomba land.
But even if it does it well, I still don't expect it to do great
 

Celine

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,030
This, I can totally agree with. But in the end, it comes down to Nintendo breeding nostalgia among people, don't you think?
Yes and no.
It's not just breeding nostalgia, their games tend to be timeless meaning they usually don't incorporate elements that are tied to a specific age only because they are hip at the time of release, they focus on fun over story telling/character development and put peculiar care to polish the controls/game systems which mean their games tend to be less prone to "aging".
It's in Nintendo DNA which was fostered by Yamauchi, the same DNA which value uniqueness over copying trendy game templates (because if you own the genre king you can usually displace any other competitor if you plan well ahead and keep churning out new iterations generation after generation).
 

casiopao

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,044
120k sounds better than i thought. And PS classic is more expensive than Nes or Snes classic right? I dont think Sony will see any problem with the performance i think.
 

hiska-kun

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,410
First day Sell-through {2018.12.14}

[PS4] God Eater 3 # <ACT> (Bandai Namco Games) (¥8.200) - 60%

[PS4] Judgement <ADV> (Sega) (¥8.290) - 40%, better than Fist of the North Star: Lost Paradise

[NSW] [PS4] Fortnite <ACT> (Warner Entertainment Japan) (¥3.000) - 20%

[PS4] [NSW] Daedalus: The Awakening of Golden Jazz # <ADV> (Arc System Works) (¥8.990) - 30%

[NSW] Peach Ball: Senran Kagura <TBL> (Marvelous) (¥4.980) - 40%
 

hiska-kun

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,410
God Eater 3 and Judgement will be closer to 150k than 100k, then.

120k first week for PS Classic is bad because hype died and word of mouth is terrible. Maybe not even holidays can save it.
 

KratosEnergyDrink

Using an alt account to circumvent a ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
I don't want to bring up Monster Hunter again, but wouldn't it be cool if Daemon X Machina could fill the void left by Capcom? Every time I look at it I get Monster Hunter vibes, just with mechas instead of the monsters. It has co-op, looks like it's loot-based and you have a wide range of weapons at disposal.

I don't think DxM is even remotely comparable to MH and that is a very good thing.