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Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
Really strange behavior indeed, is it related to Japanese honor and shame culture ? Honest question, I'm not an expert
It's great that you brought this meme up. Cuz it's a perfect example of Japanese publishers not being loyal to Sony. How many big 3rd party games are Sony exclusive in the last two years? I can't think of any. Any time Nintendo didn't get a game people look at Sony, yet somehow they all end up on Xbox and PC.
 

Refyref

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,025
Considering how popular the Switch is with women I would have thought otome games would do well on it, but I guess not yet, less than half of the Vita release. And with Catherine at 60-80% for both PS4 and Vita it's safe to say it's not a complete bomb as some in this thread were hoping.
The Vita version of Catherine seems to be a complete bomb, no matter how you look at it. Opening at less than half of even the 360 version of the original, nd unlike all the other versions, this won't have international sales to help it out. The high sell-through just means that retailers knew what to expect and barely ordered any copies.
 

HaremKing

Banned
Dec 20, 2018
2,416
The Vita version of Catherine seems to be a complete bomb, no matter how you look at it. Opening at less than half of even the 360 version of the original, nd unlike all the other versions, this won't have international sales to help it out. The high sell-through just means that retailers knew what to expect and barely ordered any copies.
The high sell through means that it sold around what it was expected to sell.

Are we really going to act like a Vita game is supposed to sell more than 10k right now?
 

hiska-kun

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,410
Persona Q2 had a 65% sell-through, the game collapsed the following week, it has been heavy discounted and it still hasn't sold the first shipment.

So I don't know how we can say Catherine sell-through is high and the expected yet.
 

_Dog

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
229
User Banned (1 week): Antagonising behaviour, dismissing concerns regarding transphobia
Not gonna shed a single tear over Catherine bombing on Vita, and well everywhere else because of Atlus' perplexing decision not to release it on Switch. Fuck that game and fuck the bigot behind it.
You okay there? Sounds like someone kicked your dog.
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
The high sell through means that it sold around what it was expected to sell.

Are we really going to act like a Vita game is supposed to sell more than 10k right now?
Yeah? You wouldn't make a port just to sell a few thousand copies would you?
You okay there? Sounds like someone kicked your dog.
You missed some recent news it seems.

But on the other hand, that post does give the impression that he's wishing for the game's failure and a Switch port at the same time... Not sure how to make of it.
 

Vinnk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,969
Japan
The high sell through means that it sold around what it was expected to sell.

Are we really going to act like a Vita game is supposed to sell more than 10k right now?

Altus can't ship more than retailers are willing to take. I very much doubt that Altus are happy with these sales. And there will be nearly no further sales since it is not being released outside of Japan. I would be surprised if it makes back the costs of porting it.
 

Refyref

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,025
The high sell through means that it sold around what it was expected to sell.

Are we really going to act like a Vita game is supposed to sell more than 10k right now?
Atlus doesn't get to decide how many copies retailers will agree to buy. And while Vita sales completely collapsed recently, they weren't so low when they approved the game. Add in the fact that this is the one release they can't release in the west to eke out a few more sales.
EDIT: Beaten.
 

HaremKing

Banned
Dec 20, 2018
2,416
Persona Q2 had a 65% sell-through, the game collapsed the following week, it has been heavy discounted and it still hasn't sold the first shipment.

So I don't know how we can say Catherine sell-through is high and the expected yet.

[3DS] Persona Q2: New Cinema Labyrinth <RPG> (Atlus) {2018.11.29} (¥6.980) - 74.425 / NEW <40-60%>

Looks like a lower quintile to me.
 
Oct 26, 2017
13,606
27./26. [NSW] Tales of Vesperia: Definitive Edition # <RPG> (Bandai Namco Games) {2019.01.11} (¥5.700) - 1.966 / 34.461 <80-100%> (+5%)

Ooh, Vesperia Switch actually went up this week. Maybe some actual legs are finally kicking in thanks to actual new stock.
 

hiska-kun

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,410
[3DS] Persona Q2: New Cinema Labyrinth <RPG> (Atlus) {2018.11.29} (¥6.980) - 74.425 / NEW <40-60%>

Looks like a lower quintile to me.

Media Create

02./00. [3DS] Persona Q2: New Cinema Labyrinth <RPG> (Atlus) {2018.11.29} (¥6.980) - 79.747 / NEW <64,54%>

Dengeki

01./00. [3DS] Persona Q2: New Cinema Labyrinth (Atlus) {2018.11.29} - 76,172 / NEW <60,00%>
 

Herb Alpert

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,033
Paris, France
It's great that you brought this meme up. Cuz it's a perfect example of Japanese publishers not being loyal to Sony. How many big 3rd party games are Sony exclusive in the last two years? I can't think of any. Any time Nintendo didn't get a game people look at Sony, yet somehow they all end up on Xbox and PC.

Imo, regarding third party supports, Sony also benefits greatly from being close to both pc and xbox one in terms of power.

Nintendo is the odd one out, needing games specifically tailored to its platform. Pubs don't choose between PS4 and switch, they chose between PS4 xbox one pc versus switch. Or, if they want to put the game everywhere, it will have to be somehow "held back" by the smallest common denominator, aka switch undocked power.
Capcom chose to go "high end", and doing this, you somehow give up on domestic market and go for west money.

Maybe Nintendo have begun to understand that the era of exclusives and "loyalty" (if there even was such a thing) is over. The WiiU and its frankenstein architecture taught them this hard lesson (among many others lol).
 

hiska-kun

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,410
Carherine Vita had 40% first day sell-through. Total sell-through high end of the week is 60%. Probably 55-60% for Media Create.
 

HaremKing

Banned
Dec 20, 2018
2,416
Carherine Vita had 40% first day sell-through. Total sell-through high end of the week is 60%. Probably 55-60% for Media Create.
You're free to quote Media Create when they provide the stats, however assuming such numbers is not particularly bright. What we know, from actual given numbers, is that Famitsu shows a 60-80% sell-through. Also bear in mind that Media Create has Catherine Vita at 1200 units higher, which is about 15 percent higher than Famitsu.
 

hiska-kun

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,410
You're free to quote Media Create when they provide the stats, however assuming such numbers is not particularly bright. What we know, from actual given numbers, is that Famitsu shows a 60-80% sell-through.

And 60-80% means what it means, it can be exactly 60,00%.

The range is too big to assume sell-through is high, when we had the 40% first day report.
 

Vinnk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,969
Japan
Incorrect. Flop is when you get something like 0-20 or 20-40% sellthrough.

No. A flop is when a game does not sell enough to make a profit for the publisher who made it.

To expend: Yes a game that sells 20% of it's shipment is a flop but a game that has a tiny amount to begin with and sells all of them is not necessarily a success. For example: Only a few thousand copies of Devil's Third were ever printed worldwide. It sold out at the time. But there is no one who will argue that this was a sales success.

And yes, Mario & Luigi 3DS port was a flop. I don't think anyone will contest that either.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
3,257
Most important is if BN got the message and won't goof up next time they put a Tales game on Switch.

They should double down and port more of them over! :P

Seriously, I'll never not be baffled that Berseria isn't on Switch. But eh, whatever.
Berseria might have gotten ported if the game came out later or the Switch launched earlier, probably didn't seem worth it for a late release.
 

_Dog

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
229
No. A flop is when a game does not sell enough to make a profit for the publisher who made it.

To expend: Yes a game that sells 20% of it's shipment is a flop but a game that has a tiny amount to begin with and sells all of them is not necessarily a success. For example: Only a few thousand copies of Devil's Third were ever printed worldwide. It sold out at the time. But there is no one who will argue that this was a sales success.
This. That said, I don't consider Catherine nor Jump Force to be flops on the PS4 unless the legs drastically drop to the point where the price gets reduced significantly.

I do ask what's a bigger flop though: Devil's Third or Gaist Crusher?
 

HaremKing

Banned
Dec 20, 2018
2,416
No. A flop is when a game does not sell enough to make a profit for the publisher who made it.
And how much money does it cost to take 2D and 3D assets and downscale them to fit on worse hardware? It seems a fairly simple task. You don't think that they had to actually create new assets or anything do you? This isn't a Mario & Luigi issue where they created brand new assets for the port.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,171
And how much money does it cost to take 2D and 3D assets and downscale them to fit on worse hardware? It seems a fairly simple task. You don't think that they had to actually create new assets or anything do you? This isn't a Mario & Luigi issue where they created brand new assets for the port.

Development time is not the only thing that's baked into a product's pricing.
 

kuroneko0509

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,377
Incorrect. Flop is when you get something like 0-20 or 20-40% sellthrough.

Like the recent Mario & Luigi 3DS port.
14./00. [NSW] Sumikko Gurashi: Sumikko Park e Youkoso <ETC> (Nippon Columbia) {2017.12.07} (¥5.800) - 8.308 / NEW <20-40%>
1 year later
90./00. [NSW] Sumikko Gurashi: Sumikko Park e Youkoso <ETC> (Nippon Columbia) {2017.12.07} (¥5.800) - 51.037 / 84.957

20./00. [NSW] Snipperclips Plus: Cut it Out, Together! <PZL> (Nintendo) {2017.11.10} (¥3.280) - 3.068 / NEW <0-20%>
1 year later
80./00. [NSW] Snipperclips Plus: Cut it Out, Together! <PZL> (Nintendo) {2017.11.10} (¥3.280) - 57.601 / 91.391

flop indeed
 

Vinnk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,969
Japan
And how much money does it cost to take 2D and 3D assets and downscale them to fit on worse hardware? It seems a fairly simple task. You don't think that they had to actually create new assets or anything do you? This isn't a Mario & Luigi issue where they created brand new assets for the port.

I don't know for sure how much the port cost. But I would be surprised if under 10k copies worldwide covered them.

And I am not sure why the agreed upon flop Mario & Luigi keeps getting brought into this thread. No one else brought it up.

Jim-Carrey-What-the-hell-are-you-talking-about.gif
 

HaremKing

Banned
Dec 20, 2018
2,416
14./00. [NSW] Sumikko Gurashi: Sumikko Park e Youkoso <ETC> (Nippon Columbia) {2017.12.07} (¥5.800) - 8.308 / NEW <20-40%>
1 year later
90./00. [NSW] Sumikko Gurashi: Sumikko Park e Youkoso <ETC> (Nippon Columbia) {2017.12.07} (¥5.800) - 51.037 / 84.957

20./00. [NSW] Snipperclips Plus: Cut it Out, Together! <PZL> (Nintendo) {2017.11.10} (¥3.280) - 3.068 / NEW <0-20%>
1 year later
80./00. [NSW] Snipperclips Plus: Cut it Out, Together! <PZL> (Nintendo) {2017.11.10} (¥3.280) - 57.601 / 91.391

flop indeed
Bomba bin sales and massive price cuts do help after all.
 

HaremKing

Banned
Dec 20, 2018
2,416
I don't know for sure how much the port cost. But I would be surprised if under 10k copies worldwide covered them.
Why? You haven't made any a slightest attempt of an argument putting forth why you think that is. What is it about Catherine that would make a port troublesome?

Or are you stating that any game under X copies is not able to pay for its port cost?
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
And how much money does it cost to take 2D and 3D assets and downscale them to fit on worse hardware? It seems a fairly simple task. You don't think that they had to actually create new assets or anything do you? This isn't a Mario & Luigi issue where they created brand new assets for the port.

Not necessarily. A lot of the assets in that game were already created for the first Mario & Luigi remake, and even then they were extremely similar at worst to what we saw in the new Mario & Luigi games on 3DS. Your example is bad IMO.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,171
Bomba bin sales and massive price cuts do help after all.
None of those ever got a massive price cut. Maybe 1000 yen cut on amazon for Sumikko Gurashi.

Also to your question about what else is factored into the price of a game. Advertising, manufacturing, the labor it takes to deal the product with retailers. If all of this is somehow covered by at most 11000 units that cannot be replenished because you can no longer order vita carts anymore, then that would be surprising.

I'm not saying Catherine Vita is an expensive endeavor, it's just that Atlus ain't in this to almost break even at most.
 

HaremKing

Banned
Dec 20, 2018
2,416
None of those ever got a massive price cut. Maybe 1000 yen cut on amazon for Sumikko Gurashi.

Also to your question about what else is factored into the price of a game. Advertising, manufacturing, the labor it takes to deal the product with retailers. If all of this is somehow covered by at most 11000 units that cannot be replenished because you can no longer order vita carts anymore, then that would be surprising.
Okay, so new question here.

If the costs of Catherine in terms of production/advertisement/whatever cannot cover the port cost by selling 10k copies, then what does that means for Nobunaga's Ambition for Switch which sold less than 4k or La Corda d'Oro which sold under 2k on Switch and under 5k on Vita?

If the cost of simply putting out a game cart is so massive, then why do these games come out? If Catherine couldn't do it then surely these games are even further in the red, right?
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,171
If the cost of simply putting out a game cart is so massive, then why do these games come out? If Catherine couldn't do it then surely these games are even further in the red, right?
Game releases are a gamble, man. There's nothing complex about it. Get on the new popular thing as fast as you can, see if you can capture the stragglers on the handheld that's still hanging on.

Just so happens in this case Koei Tecmo is a compulsive gambler.
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
Do elaborate. What in particular do you believe makes porting Catherine Full Body an expensive endeavor? It's not like it's some giant open world game. It's fairly simple.
Distribution, as it happens, is not free. Microsoft, for example, infamously had a minimum shipment policy that prevented a lot of small publishers from releasing games on Xbox. It was a bad policy that unnecessarily damaged Microsoft's relationship with 3rd parties, but it existed because games that sell as few units as the Vita version of Catherine straight up lose money for the publisher. They don't recoup distribution costs, let alone production costs.

As for your gotcha, yes, those ports on Switch lost money too.
 

KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
Okay, so new question here.

If the costs of Catherine in terms of production/advertisement/whatever cannot cover the port cost by selling 10k copies, then what does that means for Nobunaga's Ambition for Switch which sold less than 4k or La Corda d'Oro which sold under 2k on Switch and under 5k on Vita?

If the cost of simply putting out a game cart is so massive, then why do these games come out? If Catherine couldn't do it then surely these games are even further in the red, right?

KT has a port to Switch button. They probably aren't spending a whole lot getting those games to work on Switch.

They probably broke even or consider the price sunk into the entire product coming out on all platforms.
 

HaremKing

Banned
Dec 20, 2018
2,416
Distribution, as it happens, is not free. Microsoft, for example, infamously had a minimum shipment policy that prevented a lot of small publishers from releasing games on Xbox. It was a bad policy that unnecessarily damaged Microsoft's relationship with 3rd parties, but it existed because games that sell as few units as the Vita version of Catherine straight up lose money for the publisher because they don't recoup distribution costs, let alone production costs.

As for your gotcha, yes, those ports on Switch lost money too.
Thank you. I will archive your post and link it every time there is a port that sells under 10k copies and I happen to get any blowback towards calling a release/port a bomb.

I had no idea that it was so expensive. And here I am with a lot of knowledge of how the late night anime TV industry works and how it can make it on razor thin margins off a couple thousand BluRay discs but it's apparently impossible for video games to do the same. I guess distribution is just completely different.
 

Vinnk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,969
Japan
Why? You haven't made any a slightest attempt of an argument putting forth why you think that is. What is it about Catherine that would make a port troublesome?

Or are you stating that any game under X copies is not able to pay for its port cost?

Again, I don't know how much the actual cost of porting the game is. I am guessing it was a bit troublesome to port since the original game was on the Gamebryo engine and the Vita port isn't but for all I know the porting process might have been very simple (if anyone knows some additional info about this, please chime in). But 10k copies worldwide is not a lot. Like for example the Ys VIII also sold only about 9k LTD and if this was a Japan-only title I would also be saying the port was a flop. But it sold very well overseas, so it was worth doing. Right now we are looking at about 74,000,000yen in total sales. That is under $700,000 US.

Catherine Full Body was announced in December 2017. That's more than a year ago. Let's assume a very small team was in charge of porting it. Let's say 3 people for 1 year. And let's say that they were paid only 33k a year (which is pretty low). There is $100,000 right there. Ok now let's add in the cut Sony takes, the cost of the Vita cards, packaging, shipment costs, retailer cut, etc. To be generous let's say they still had a profit of $400,000. Opportunity cost is a thing and the time spent on this version could have been spent on other things. And notice how I am not saying that Catherine Full Body itself was a flop. The PS4 version has overseas sales potential and more than likely already covered it's costs with (5x the sales of the Vita version)

I do not work in the video game industry, so I am willing to concede that I could be wrong. But until I hear from Altus or someone with insider info, I stand by Catherine Vita being a flop.

And yes Nobunaga's Ambition for Switch is also a flop since it is not getting ported outside of Japan. Though as KtSlime already mentioned it is built on an engine they already had on Switch, so my guess is, it was an easier port.