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PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,446
Not going through a long of arc of explaining Ben's fall saved valuable time, though I'd argue that might have been retroactively wasted through Rian for some reason choosing to use an episode to "rebirth" a rebellion that hadn't even been properly introduced to begin with....but ah well.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
So is this what the game is now? new Star Wars movie is not universally loved, cue Disney response: LUCAS IS BEHIND IT ALL!

Guy just can't catch a break from the mob...

No, we're giving him credit for the ideas behind to critically and financially successful movies.

I'm not seeing a dilution of his ideas in the finished product that I wouldn't have seen in any other movie or his own Star Wars movies.

Compare his original Star Wars story treatment to the final movie and the differences between the early concept and the final product are just as pronounced as in the sequel trilogy. If not more in the original Star Wars.
 

Oozer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,832
Woo-hoo! I'm (sort of) ERA famous! This is definitely gonna be part of the first line in my obituary :P

I made a post in the Star Wars Community thread with some screenshots from an art department review from February 6th, 2013, just after George left the production. They come from the behind the scenes documentary included with the Blu-ray for The Force Awakens.

I... I have a problem. I can't stop researching George Lucas' Episode VII. Save me ERA.

I watched the documentary from The Force Awakens Blu-ray last night and was intrigued by an art department review it showed from February 6th, 2013, just after George had turned over the project to J.J. There were big art boards behind everyone with stills from previous movies and concept art. One board was labeled "Act 2" and appears to be comprised of nothing but existing stills and art, including Darth Talon.

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The piece just above Doug Chiang's head here is actually one of Ralph McQuarrie's first concepts for Darth Vader's castle in Empire Strikes Back.

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I point this out because there was an original piece of concept art for Vader's castle made for The Force Awakens the month this meeting took place:

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Then there was an entire concept art board for Felucia with every piece we can see incorporating a canyon, including a piece that was included in The Art of The Force Awakens titled "Felucia Canyon" that can be seen in the middle of the screenshot.

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That piece as shown in the art book includes a male figure with a red lightsaber looking down on the Millennium Falcon.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
I think he would've if and only if he could filter his ideas through someone good and he was willing listen to them. Like a cinematic Filoni. And also if Lucas got someone else to direct. (Maybe Spielberg)
Spielberg has been asked multiple times and said no

Spielberg is the one who asked both Lucas and Kennedy to give TFA to Abrams.
 
OP
OP
Lunar Wolf

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Woo-hoo! I'm (sort of) ERA famous! This is definitely gonna be part of the first line in my obituary :P

I made a post in the Star Wars Community thread with some screenshots from an art department review from February 6th, 2013, just after George left the production. They come from the behind the scenes documentary included with the Blu-ray for The Force Awakens.

Damn, I want Ben to make Vader's castle on Mustafar to be his new seat and capital.
 

MollyMillions

Member
Nov 19, 2017
215
What I take away from this thread:

-The Sam character was going to be a generic Chris (Pine Hemsworth Evans Pratt) style floppy-haired blonde whiteboy, who we've seen a million times in films like this, thank god they did something different, both in making him a defecting stormtrooper and in casting John Boyega.

-Darth Talon or whatever she's called is one of the worst most offensive character designs I've ever seen and if she'd been in any canon material I would have been so sad and it would have legit lessened my love of Star Wars.

-I can see the spitting/frothing fanboy rage if Mary Sue Kira had sliced up a Star Destroyer WHILE FLYING AN X-WING, I mean that is some CG-Legolas in ROTK level silly shit.

-Lucas had the welcome idea to feature a female protagonist and have Luke hand off the mantle of the Jedi to her, good on you George, thanks :)
 

MollyMillions

Member
Nov 19, 2017
215
I wonder if they'll ever let Filoni do a live action movie.
I hope not, based on how weakly written and truly boring large chunks of Rebels is, not to mention how it utterly squanders the concept of a show about the Rebel Alliance. Also he's really into the prequels and I don't want that stink anywhere near the movies.
 

Gravidee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,362
I hope not, based on how weakly written and truly boring large chunks of Rebels is, not to mention how it utterly squanders the concept of a show about the Rebel Alliance. Also he's really into the prequels and I don't want that stink anywhere near the movies.

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the show's concept was never really about the Rebel Alliance as a whole, but focuses on a specific cell that gets integrated as a part of it.

About that last point, it's a little late for that, as not only have they been integrated quite a bit in non-movie media, but in the films themselves already.

  • Clone armies are referenced in TFA
  • Emblems from TCW and Rebels are seen outside of Maz's palace
  • Maz mentions the Sith, as does Kylo in TLJ
  • Ewan Mcgregor's Obi-wan is given a line in Rey's force vision
  • Luke mentions Darth Sidious by name in TLJ
  • Saw Gerrera in RO originates from TCW
  • Bail and Mon Mothma's actors being the same from ROTS
  • The wheeled vehicle carrying Jyn and other prisoners was the Clone tank from ROTS
  • Coruscant in Jyn's flashback
  • Vader's lair being on Mustafar itself
  • Numerous sound effects brought over from TCW and Rebels throughout the new movies
I suspect we will be seeing more In Solo as well as IX.
 

MollyMillions

Member
Nov 19, 2017
215
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the show's concept was never really about the Rebel Alliance as a whole, but focuses on a specific cell that gets integrated as a part of it.

About that last point, it's a little late for that, as not only have they been integrated quite a bit in non-movie media, but in the films themselves already.
I guess I hoped that a show called "Rebels" would be about the forming of the Rebel Alliance and feature characters who seemed cool and interesting from that time period already established in the films, like Mon Mothma, Biggs, Wedge, Bail Organa, etc., not a saturday morning cartoon about a "family" on a ship who happen to be Rebels that yet again revolves around a pair of Jedi (even though it feels contrived if not completely contradictory in this time period).

That said, some of the last couple of seasons were okay. Thrawn was a much more suitable villain than the painfully lame Inquisitors, and the show as a whole would have been better if he had been there from the beginning. What really drives me up the wall with this show (other than the focus on Jedi) is that anytime actual characters I'm invested in from the movies, like Wedge or Mon Mothma show up (these characters could really use some fleshing out despite being fan favorites), they become glorified cameos who just pop up to cheer on the REAL heroes, the crew of the Ghost, who do everything, take up all the action sequences, etc.

I get that Filoni prefers the characters he's created, I just think it's disappointing compared to what it could have been. Also his aesthetic is just weak, although it was often better on Clone Wars.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Filoni had been wanting to do the family/small crew thing for a while. It was even how they initially conceived of TCW before George stated he wanted it to be an anthology show focusing on the wider war and the PT cast.
 

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
I hope not, based on how weakly written and truly boring large chunks of Rebels is, not to mention how it utterly squanders the concept of a show about the Rebel Alliance. Also he's really into the prequels and I don't want that stink anywhere near the movies.

Rebels is held back by a lot of things. Being forced into 20 minute or best case 40 minute stories (and no surprise the 40 min ones are all better) is a major issue. Targeting the show more specifically at children is another.

But all of those 4+ episode arcs in TCW were already basically movies. And many of them are really quite good. He knows what he's doing. Like, those big clone wars "arcs" are almost all much better than the prequel films themselves.
 

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
Okay, why?

The entire Manadalore story throughout TCW, which was like a Duology of films, was some of the best Star Wars story put to screen period. There were a lot of interesting things explored there and an exciting story that involved Obi-Wan, a strong female character as his love interest, the Resurrection of darth maul, terrorism and the co-opting of government... and some great action set pieces as well. It was extremely well told.

There were also the smaller but still compelling "single films" like Ahsoka being framed and having to flee the Jedi Order/Republic, the "Vietnam"-esque story with the "evil" Jedi Master who enjoys killing his Clones, the Clone going "Crazy" and uncovering the entire mechanism for Order 66, the fun adventure serial with obi-wan and anakin and the cat people keeping slaves... just to name a few.

The series really weaved in and out of multiple genres and expanded what Star Wars could be, all while still being Star Wars. And these were really great stories.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
Okay, why?

The entire Manadalore story throughout TCW, which was like a Duology of films, was some of the best Star Wars story put to screen period. There were a lot of interesting things explored there and an exciting story that involved Obi-Wan, a strong female character as his love interest, the Resurrection of darth maul, terrorism and the co-opting of government... and some great action set pieces as well. It was extremely well told.

There were also the smaller but still compelling "single films" like Ahsoka being framed and having to flee the Jedi Order/Republic, the "Vietnam"-esque story with the "evil" Jedi Master who enjoys killing his Clones, the Clone going "Crazy" and uncovering the entire mechanism for Order 66, the fun adventure serial with obi-wan and anakin and the cat people keeping slaves... just to name a few.

The series really weaved in and out of multiple genres and expanded what Star Wars could be, all while still being Star Wars. And these were really great stories.
I don't like most of those reasons. I don't like his style, his characters, Ahsoka, Clovis, Maul's resurrection, Savage Opress, Cad Bane, the Force family, the Mandalore story, his version of Grievous, Obi-Wan'a girlfriend, or the entire direction. The Republic comics and micro series are far superior for me. As far as I'm concerned he ruined the Clone Wars.
 
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TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
I don't like most of those reasons. I don't like his style, his characters, Ahsoka, Clovis, Maul's resurrection, Savage Opress, Cad Bane, the Force family, the Mandalore story, his version of Grievous, Obi-Wan'a girlfriend, or the entire direction. The Republic comics and micro series are far superior for me. As far as I'm concerned he ruined the Clone Wars.

And he gave us that godawful movie.
The Clone Wars pilot movie and first season of it were very much a product of George Lucas. I mean yes he Directed that pilot, but it was meant to be on tv, not in theatres. Not his fault it got blown up. Once Lucas let him start doing his own thing and not pander so heavily toward children it got much better. Names like "Savage Opress" and the way Grievous acts are Lucas' doing too.

That said, I don't really understand how you can't like -any- of those original characters and stories. But if you have such strong feelings about it obviously nothing I say is going to be able to convince you otherwise.
 

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
TCW really did have some of the dumbest names

Savage Oppress
Moralo Eval
Cad Bane (actually a good character though)

Still, I liked many of the characters they created or brought back from the EU.
We all know Lucas loved really dumb names. Let's not forget the "Darth Icky" stories. It can be traced all the way back to "Luke Starkiller".

I don't hold any of Lucas's bad names against actual good characters though.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
hmmmmmm
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latest

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This shit is absolutely iconic.

They're very nice shots, yes, but wait until Starwarsscreencaps gets a copy of TLJ.

And I actually am not a fan of the opening scene in TFA at all. It really obviously looks like it's on a small set and for some reason it reminds me of a TV show. I also don't like the lighting in a lot of the ship and SKB interiors.
 

MollyMillions

Member
Nov 19, 2017
215
I agree!

Which is why I like the PT despite its flaws.
The prequels shrink the galaxy tremendously. Anakin builds Threepio, almost everyone has crossed paths with one another at some point in the previous 20 years, Yoda is no longer just a Jedi hermit, but the LEADER of the Jedi and the personal nemesis of The Emperor, there's a lame chosen one prophecy that makes everything seem pre-ordained and the Force goes from being a Buddhist mystical, ineffable energy surrounding all life and death in the galaxy and turns it into some quantifiable gene that can be detected in a blood test. Coruscant, the most bustling center of the galaxy is a weak strip of neon filled with cartoon bad guys with none of the menace and character of even the Mos Eisley Cantina. Don't get me started on how Lucas was going to feature a 12 year old Han Solo wearing a fucking VEST living on Kashyyk in ROTS.

Everything about the prequels tames the wild and fantastical possibilities hinted at in the OT and makes them mundane and pedestrian and boring. I want big, grand interesting space opera that feels like it happens on a huge canvas. The prequel films fail miserably at that, although the Clone Wars show does a better job.
 

Gravidee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,362
I don't like most of those reasons. I don't like his style, his characters, Ahsoka, Clovis, Maul's resurrection, Savage Opress, Cad Bane, the Force family, the Mandalore story, his version of Grievous, Obi-Wan'a girlfriend, or the entire direction. The Republic comics and micro series are far superior for me. As far as I'm concerned he ruined the Clone Wars.

And he gave us that godawful movie.

Well, thankfully you're part of the minority on that one. I think that we can all agree that the movie was shit though. It should have remained a TV special as it was supposed to.

Visually force awakens is the best Star Wars film by a very wide margin

I should have mentioned this in my initial post, but I'm not talking about shot composition. I agree that there are some great looking shots in the three recent films, especially the last two movies. I'm referring to designs, of which TFA was severely lacking in terms of interesting locations, ships and creatures. TLJ was slightly better in that regard which is one of the reasons that I enjoyed the Canto Bight sequence as well as the stuff on Crait.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
The prequels shrink the galaxy tremendously. Anakin builds Threepio, almost everyone has crossed paths with one another at some point in the previous 20 years, Yoda is no longer just a Jedi hermit, but the LEADER of the Jedi and the personal nemesis of The Emperor, there's a lame chosen one prophecy that makes everything seem pre-ordained and the Force goes from being a Buddhist mystical, ineffable energy surrounding all life and death in the galaxy and turns it into some quantifiable gene that can be detected in a blood test. Coruscant, the most bustling center of the galaxy is a weak strip of neon filled with cartoon bad guys with none of the menace and character of even the Mos Eisley Cantina. Don't get me started on how Lucas was going to feature a 12 year old Han Solo wearing a fucking VEST living on Kashyyk in ROTS.

Everything about the prequels tames the wild and fantastical possibilities hinted at in the OT and makes them mundane and pedestrian and boring. I want big, grand interesting space opera that feels like it happens on a huge canvas. The prequel films fail miserably at that, although the Clone Wars show does a better job.

It shrunk some things and expanded the universe in a lot of other ways. The political element, economic involvement, giving us proper looks into the Sith and Jedi (whether you like it or not is different), new and really interesting worlds, the whole separatist crisis and the Clone Wars, even sports (pod racing).

Some of the stuff you mention doesn't relate to expanding the universe, just how you feel about it, like Coruscant. The PT focuses primarily on characters in high society and politics, so naturally most of what we see on Coruscant will be on the upper levels. That's fine. I like that! I also liked getting a glimpse of the lower levels and I'm fine with relegating the slum elements to TCW. Frankly I find the smuggler/bounty hunter/criminal element of Star Wars kind of boring compared to the other parts so I have no great desire for the films to spend more time in the dirt.

We just have very different tastes, which is sort of obvious, and that's fine.

The scale of the PT feels much larger than the current trilogy, which is focusing in so narrowly that the expansionary worldbuilding efforts suffer. If anything, the PT is the one that feels like a grand (if failed) epic.
 

MollyMillions

Member
Nov 19, 2017
215
It shrunk some things and expanded the universe in a lot of other ways. The political element, economic involvement, giving us proper looks into the Sith and Jedi (whether you like it or not is different), new and really interesting worlds, the whole separatist crisis and the Clone Wars, even sports (pod racing).

Some of the stuff you mention doesn't relate to expanding the universe, just how you feel about it, like Coruscant. The PT focuses primarily on characters in high society and politics, so naturally most of what we see on Coruscant will be on the upper levels. That's fine. I like that! I also liked getting a glimpse of the lower levels and I'm fine with relegating the slum elements to TCW. Frankly I find the smuggler/bounty hunter/criminal element of Star Wars kind of boring compared to the other parts so I have no great desire for the films to spend more time in the dirt.

We just have very different tastes, which is sort of obvious, and that's fine.

The scale of the PT feels much larger than the current trilogy, which is focusing in so narrowly that the expansionary worldbuilding efforts suffer. If anything, the PT is the one that feels like a grand (if failed) epic.

I love the crime/smuggler/bounty hunter stuff sure, but I don't mind the cityscape of Coruscant, I think it's beautiful and exactly what I imagined reading Timothy Zahn describe it in Heir to the Empire when I was a little girl. What is disappointing is, say, the nightclub and all the sequences set in Coruscant in AOTC, they are truly terrible, and don't make me want to see more of this beautiful amazing city. I would love to see a better filmmaker than Lucas set a scene on Hutta or Nar Shadaa or Coruscant again and see what they do with it. The city built in the middle of an asteroid or moon that Cassian is on in his first scene in RO looked fantastic, The Ring of Kafrene.

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More of this, please.

I do agree with you that the scale of the ST has been way smaller than I would have liked in terms of new planets, cities, designs, ships, etc. But they are so much more beautifully shot and the characters and world so much more potent and interesting that I don't for a second wish we were back in the land of the prequels.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Ring of Kafrene is a great idea. I think it's the construction that makes it so cool. If it was just "generic dirty city place that's not Nar Shadaa" I would have rolled my eyes but that sort of creativity goes a long way.

I actually love the first third of Rogue One precisely because of all the shit they throw at the screen (and Saw). Everyone else hates it because of the choppy pacing but the imagination displayed over rules that for me.
 

We_care_a_lot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,157
Summerside PEI
They're very nice shots, yes, but wait until Starwarsscreencaps gets a copy of TLJ.

And I actually am not a fan of the opening scene in TFA at all. It really obviously looks like it's on a small set and for some reason it reminds me of a TV show. I also don't like the lighting in a lot of the ship and SKB interiors.
Well, I mean you did include Rogue One in your judgement and presumably there are a bunch of still from that you could post to illustrate your point. That movie is hardly what I'd call 'creative' though when it comes to the imagery. It's just channeling the OT. Remember, my post was in reply to 'interesting and creative visual' not necessarily which one has the best lighting. Last Jedi definitely has some stunningly original and beautiful imagery but in terms of creativity Force Awakens goes to some amazing places. I don't think anything from Last Jedi could really hope to be as iconic except maybe the hyperspace Kamikaze scene and the scenes with Luke on Crait. I don't really count the ach to stuff because that imagery is just borrowed and reworked from force awakens.
 

MollyMillions

Member
Nov 19, 2017
215
Well, I mean you did include Rogue One in your judgement and presumably there are a bunch of still from that you could post to illustrate your point. That movie is hardly what I'd call 'creative' though when it comes to the imagery. It's just channeling the OT. Remember, my post was in reply to 'interesting and creative visual' not necessarily which one has the best lighting. Last Jedi definitely has some stunningly original and beautiful imagery but in terms of creativity Force Awakens goes to some amazing places. I don't think anything from Last Jedi could really hope to be as iconic except maybe the hyperspace Kamikaze scene and the scenes with Luke on Crait. I don't really count the ach to stuff because that imagery is just borrowed and reworked from force awakens.
Well, I mean you did include Rogue One in your judgement and presumably there are a bunch of still from that you could post to illustrate your point. That movie is hardly what I'd call 'creative' though when it comes to the imagery. It's just channeling the OT. Remember, my post was in reply to 'interesting and creative visual' not necessarily which one has the best lighting. Last Jedi definitely has some stunningly original and beautiful imagery but in terms of creativity Force Awakens goes to some amazing places. I don't think anything from Last Jedi could really hope to be as iconic except maybe the hyperspace Kamikaze scene and the scenes with Luke on Crait. I don't really count the ach to stuff because that imagery is just borrowed and reworked from force awakens.
I just posted a fair amount of proof that RO is NOT just aping the OT, lol
Why can't they all be good? TFA is gorgeous, as is TLJ, as is RO, they're ALL better shot than the prequels by a wide, vast margin.
 

We_care_a_lot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,157
Summerside PEI
Well, thankfully you're part of the minority on that one. I think that we can all agree that the movie was shit though. It should have remained a TV special as it was supposed to.



I should have mentioned this in my initial post, but I'm not talking about shot composition. I agree that there are some great looking shots in the three recent films, especially the last two movies. I'm referring to designs, of which TFA was severely lacking in terms of interesting locations, ships and creatures. TLJ was slightly better in that regard which is one of the reasons that I enjoyed the Canto Bight sequence as well as the stuff on Crait.
I posted some of the most iconic imagery from the film in an attempt to counter your claims. I think it has the most iconic, interesting, bold and original imagery of the recent films. Maybe not in terms of creatures or locales but more so the character and set designs as well as images with deeper meaning like vaders melted helmet or finn with the streaks of blood on his helmet. Or the tie Fighters flying with the sun setting in the background. I could go on all day about this stuff.

Some of that stuff is going to go down as the most recognizable imagery in the series when all is said and done. At least in my opinion.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Well, I mean you did include Rogue One in your judgement and presumably there are a bunch of still from that you could post to illustrate your point. That movie is hardly what I'd call 'creative' though when it comes to the imagery. It's just channeling the OT. Last Jedi definitely has some stunningly original and beautiful imagery but in terms of creativity Force Awakens goes to some amazing places. I don't think anything from Last Jedi could really hope to be as iconic except maybe the hyperspace Kamikaze scene and the scenes with Luke on Crait. I don't really count the ach to stuff because that imagery is just borrowed and reworked from force awakens.

I guess if you want to nit pick about lighting that's ok but I dont really think that warrants saying it gets 'pooped on from great heights'

RO handles scale really, really well. There's a great sense of heft and "reality" to everything. Its very impressive. I guess that's what I'm primarily thinking of, plus the lighting.

I'm at work so give me a bit and I'll pull up some great shots.
 

TheXbox

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,560
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This is still my favorite shot in all of Star Wars. I remember seeing this in the teaser and practically jumping out of my seat. It only got better when Williams paired it with the soaring introduction of Rey's theme.

If Mindel cut back on the dutch angles I'd have no problem calling him the best cinematographer to work on Star Wars.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,651
Fantastic picks.

I do think R1 has the best cinematography though. The Last Jedi probably impressed me the least.
R1>TFA>TLJ for me in that department. R1 had that softer realism I crave. You can pick out specific compositions from each movie and pit them against each other for days, but I'm just talking the overall look of the movie, the way it was lit and filmed.

Too much jarring green screen for me in TLJ. Unfortunately the entire ending scene on Crait looks like a soundstage, along with a few shots on Ahch-to. Hoping those scenes look more natural in HDR.
 

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
Look at the PT and look at Clone Wars. Lucas should not handle any of his ideas and you can't even really call them ideas, when you look at how many things the Clone Wars folks outright changed to make it work.

I've liked every film. For very different reasons, sure, but I've liked them all.

I wish I could see George's version of 7, 8 and 9.
Nah.
I wish I could see JJ's version of 7, 8 and 9.

I wish I could see Rian's version of 7, 8 and 9.
Yes and yes.

Why didn't the prequels get this level of justification and protectiveness?

Because they're mostly bad films, driven purely by George Lucas. Look I love the man. He created Star Wars. He had the balls to mostly self-fund Red Tails, which was the story of the Tuskegee airmen. But no world would I ever, ever think his stuff on this trilogy would've been better.

Hm. I could've sworn people were so hyped about this new trilogy because they realized that George Lucas' ideas were ruining the franchise. I feel like I heard that a ton from Star Wars fans.
Like Sonic and Zelda fandom. Lest we forget.

By and large, George was a GREAT ideas man. His problems were his writing and direction. But as far as his ideas went, he almost always had great ones.

This is why he needed true collaborators like he had on the OT instead of yes men like he had on the PT. I'm almost certain the PT could have been really good, even without changing any of the main story thrusts, if he'd simply worked with a writer's room and a director with a strong vision.
Probably, but are those ideas really great? These aren't amazingly deep stories and characters. The execution is everything.

-I can see the spitting/frothing fanboy rage if Mary Sue Kira had sliced up a Star Destroyer WHILE FLYING AN X-WING, I mean that is some CG-Legolas in ROTK level silly shit.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
More TFA cinematography appreciation.

Last Jedi's was good, but JJ Abrams and Dan Mindel's cinematography especially gave me the feeling of a movie that was both very fresh and something that could often fit in the 80's with Indiana Jones.

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