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Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
No painting has the power to destabilize society. It is merely there and you can always walk away from viewing that work if you find it appropriate to do so. It's perfectly reasonable to see where the concerns of the petition are coming from and agree that the work should not be outright destroyed.

But, the MET owes it to themselves to add a plaque to contextualize the artwork because context is everything in a museum; that is why curators choose works that are thematically or stylistically consistent with one another to display. A curator should strive to select pieces that work towards a greater whole in evoking a specific feeling or discussion.

Clearly, the sexually charged Balthus piece when taken as a whole was not working towards a greater discussion on the sexual objectification of the female body and how a person's view can lead to repressive thought processes. Displaying works of art together that have no thematic ties is the equivalent of putting in pandering fetishitic female character designs in a video game and calling it a deconstruction of objectified female character design.
Perhaps if I rephrased my sentence to "doesn't appear to directly contribute to thoughts that normalizes pedophilia" instead of threats to society in general would have been clearer but such a provocative statement seemed too specific and I thought it was implied. My apologies for being unclear with my point. Of course, as you say on this matter, it's people's reactions to art that can be threatening not the inert object itself.
The rest of what you're saying seems unrelated to the petition which is only asking for a small contextualization. But to address some of what you're saying, the article says there was an exhibit of the artist's work involving Cats and Girls in 2013. It appears that the exhibit ended but the piece is still being displayed as part of their general collection. Displaying it may have other valid reasons than what you're suggesting.
I do agree with the spirit of what you're saying about video game depictions and I may join in that discussion in the appropriate thread once I have full membership.
 

Carfo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,857
If you look at that and think it's child porn you need serious help.

I have a seven year old, she sits like that all the time. I've taught 11-16 year olds and the younger ones will sit like that. Sex isn't in their thoughts at all, that's all in the eye of the beholder.

WTF Era? Really hoping there's a lot of kids in this thread because some of the responses are worrying. Not every picture of a child is child porn guys.

yea man I have a 4yo daughter I would not let her sit like that with her underwear showing in my own house nevermind on display somewhere. If you teach 11-16 year olds who sit with their legs open and underwear exposed I'd say that's a problem their parents should address to them.

and i wasn't saying that painting was child porn (though it's still off pudding), i said if it was a picture (photograph) it would be borderline child porn or arguably straight up child porn
 
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adamsappel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,503
I'm not the arbiter of when paintings depict their subjects "well." Taking a piece and analyzing it from its design elements alone removes the meaning behind the piece.

For me, how well a work depicts their subject matter is predicated on the amount of discussion that is produced through viewing the work. Going by this thread alone with this parameter, I can't say, because many are still confused on whether this piece is sexual or not. For us to actually discuss what the work is attempting to convey and how well it does in producing a meaningful conversation, you actually have to understand the fundamental feelings the work actually intends to provoke.

Therefore, with that said, I think the petition calling for a contextualization is sound.
I wasn't referring to the artistic depiction of the subject, but whether the artist achieved his goal.

The artist himself stated that the purpose of the painting is to make the audience as uncomfortable as possible by depicting underaged sexuality. It's not about the act, it's about the framing of it, and sexualizing a young child's body is exactly what that painting strives to do.

Does he achieve the above? I don't think you're accusing the artist of tittilation, but perhaps exploitation? Further context should certainly be displayed with the picture, particularly how a viewer at the time might have interpreted the work. My father and I were once in the Museum of Modern Art in NYC. He was a fine art photographer in the 60's/70's. He pointed to a picture, a day-glo work that I thought fairly unremarkable. "When that painting came out, we couldn't even look at it. We'd never seen colors like that. It made people uncomfortable and they would leave the room with their hands over their eyes." Did someone in 1934 see something more provocative?
 
Oct 30, 2017
19
This is exactly why I hate the direction art has gone since well before my birth. Sure, some of his paintings are more academic than other modern art, but popular artists seem to focus more on shocking the view, grossing them out, or mocking things. Or maybe it's just a cover story for an old man who has a sick fascination with young girls.

If they make something and you don't like it, you're just looking at it wrong. "I'm not a pedophile, YOU'RE a pedophile!"
 

adamsappel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,503
This is exactly why I hate the direction art has gone since well before my birth. Sure, some of his paintings are more academic than other modern art, but popular artists seem to focus more on shocking the view, grossing them out, or mocking things. Or maybe it's just a cover story for an old man who has a sick fascination with young girls.

If they make something and you don't like it, you're just looking at it wrong. "I'm not a pedophile, YOU'RE a pedophile!"
"Art" is a pretty big umbrella. Are you referring to painting, sculpture, performance, what? What do you mean when you say "modern art"? That technically refers to about a century of artistic work. Who are the "popular artists" you refer to?

I'm not particularly familiar with Balthus, but his work is clearly meant to depict young girls as sexually awakening beings, and there are plenty of his other paintings that are far more blatant. But I'm taking the concept that it's designed to provoke the viewer as true, rather than an excuse to show young naked girls.
 
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Pooh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,849
The Hundred Acre Wood
I think the idea that this piece should not be displayed is pretty puritanical. I think the questions it raises are interesting ones: if this is sexualized, why is it? Nothing she is doing is inherently sexual, but we as a viewer bring our views of sexuality when perceiving it. Does it make you feel like a voyeur, and if so, why? Why can a boy do this pose and not a girl? If we have decided as a society that this is sexual, then how sad is it that such a young girl must worry about being looked upon that way despite such a basic pose?
 

Driggonny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,170
I think the idea that this piece should not be displayed is pretty puritanical. I think the questions it raises are interesting ones: if this is sexualized, why is it? Nothing she is doing is inherently sexual, but we as a viewer bring our views of sexuality when perceiving it. Does it make you feel like a voyeur, and if so, why? Why can a boy do this pose and not a girl? If we have decided as a society that this is sexual, then how sad is it that such a young girl must worry about being looked upon that way despite such a basic pose?
I didn't really see it as sexual when I first saw it, but it was very much intended to be so... you should look up more of Balthus's work...
 

Pooh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,849
The Hundred Acre Wood
I didn't really see it as sexual when I first saw it, but it was very much intended to be so... you should look up more of Balthus's work...
I'm at work, so I'll have to do that later. But still, his other work doesn't necessarily mean this one has the same concept behind it. A photographer can take a pornographic photo and then do another photo without it necessarily being pornographic based on his/her prior work.

But even in the case that this is intended to be sexual, it still raises a question of why we find it sexual when the subject is not doing anything inherently sexual.
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,821
There really isn't any reason to have a painting of a little girl exposing her panties around. At the end of the day that is exactly what the painting is. I can see why and agree with people wanting it taken down.

Maybe have a private sector for these kinds of questionable pieces if you MUST display them.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
So we are really doing this? We are going back to censoring? Why?! Who has ever benefited from censorship? We are learning wrong lessons...
You seem to be going back to when people couldn't learn to read, if anything.
The petition calls for a simple plaque explaining the context of the image. People crying "censhorship" in this thread are really showing their asses.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,910
For reference here is the piece online, complete with the current label and audio entry.
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/colle...;ft=balthus&offset=0&rpp=20&pos=2
And here is some of the other pieces on display along with it in gallery 907.
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/colle...e=0&sortBy=Relevance&sortOrder=asc&perPage=20
Works by Giacometti, Yves Tanguy, Francis Bacon, and Salvador Dali hang in the same room.

The text is definitely short and ought to be improved and updated, but together with surrealist and other modern works, I have to imagine it makes for a striking and unsettling image, one that with proper context, is imo needed more now than ever. It exposes just how messed up this sort of sexualized viewpoint is and makes the girl feel very discomforting. Just look at Dali's Accommodations of Desire and the story behind it, and look back at Therese Dreaming, which takes on a new life this way
ma1999.363.16.jpg

Painted in the summer of 1929, "The Accommodations of Desire" is a small gem that deals with Dalí's sexual anxieties over a love affair with an older, married woman. The woman, Gala, then the wife of the Surrealist poet Paul Éluard, became Dalí's life-long muse and mate. In this picture, which Dalí painted after taking a walk alone with Gala, he included seven enlarged pebbles on which he envisioned what lay ahead for him: "terrorizing" lions' heads (not so "accommodating" to his "desires" as the title of the painting facetiously suggests), as well as a toupee and a colony of ants (a symbol of decay). Also depicted are various vessels (one in the shape of a woman's head) and three figures embracing on a platform. Dalí did not paint the lion heads but, rather, cut them out from what must have been an illustrated children's book, slyly matching the latter's detailed style with his own. These collaged elements are virtually indistinguishable from the super-saturated color and painstaking realism of the rest of the composition, startling the viewer into questioning the existence of the phenomena recorded and of the representation as a whole.

It's a challenging pairing and one that I find interesting. Another avenue they could have taken could have been with Edward Hopper's nude women in apartments, which similarly challenge the viewer's understanding of a female figure in modern contexts
 

Chamaeleonx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
I think the idea that this piece should not be displayed is pretty puritanical. I think the questions it raises are interesting ones: if this is sexualized, why is it? Nothing she is doing is inherently sexual, but we as a viewer bring our views of sexuality when perceiving it. Does it make you feel like a voyeur, and if so, why? Why can a boy do this pose and not a girl? If we have decided as a society that this is sexual, then how sad is it that such a young girl must worry about being looked upon that way despite such a basic pose?
I agree with you here but sadly this is hard to discuss on here in my opinion. The art in itself is not sexual but rather the viewer and the surrounding society make it sexual. Outside of it she simply sits there in a specific pose that we, coming from out society view as sexual or provoking, despite this not having to be the case. Of course we have the artist saying that it was his intention to make us uncomfortable and portray it as sexual, which is important of course.

In itself the picture is not sexual, I can see the sexual aspects but at it's core it is a girl sitting on a chair in a specific pose. Simply seeing her underwear doesn't make it sexual, same as the naked body in itself is not sexual.

There really isn't any reason to have a painting of a little girl exposing her panties around. At the end of the day that is exactly what the painting is. I can see why and agree with people wanting it taken down.

Maybe have a private sector for these kinds of questionable pieces if you MUST display them.
Ignoring something doesn't make it go away and art should always be free to use its means to show us a mirror, offer critic or other important actions we normally wouldn't take.
I understand that people find it uncomfortable, but that was obviously the intention with this painting. Simply removing it from being viewed is a wrong stance to take on this issue. Rather educate your society to critical analyze something and make an intelligent decision how to view it. Even if you find it disgusting that doesn't change the value or art technique or commentary on society.

Of course I agree with a detailing plaque at the side to illustrate the intention behind the painting and providing additional information.


I didn't really see it as sexual when I first saw it, but it was very much intended to be so... you should look up more of Balthus's work...
I understand what he means, at its core it is not a sexual action that the girl takes. We as the viewer and society give it the sexual meaning we then view. Hopefully this is understandable. I consider this an important layer for a discussion to better understand other people, because everybody has different values and views and only through agreeing on a reality we actually can communicate with each other.
Of course, as you had in mind, the artist clearly wanted this painting to have a sexual undertone or intention to make people uncomfortable, to provoke dialogue, etc. .

Same goes for language by the way, depending on the value we assign specific words the meaning of a phrase changes even if at its core you are just "This book is black". If black now is valued positive or negative then the value of the book itself changes.
 

Chamaeleonx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
By the way, someone clearly should make a weekly art thread where we discuss a painting that got posted, is controversial or important to different periods. I am sure this would level up the conversation on this forum immensely in a lot of different ways. Of course the moderators would have to be a bit more lenient depending on what painting is displayed as they can touch controversial topics.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
I like it.

I can't stand anyone under the age of about 21, so I really don't find it "sexually charged". But I understand the concept, that crossing of boundaries for female sexuality ... the daily mail counting down to the 16th birthday of a celebrity's daughter.
 

GrizzleBoy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,762
On the one hand its a picture of a girl and you can see her underwear.

On the other hand, its only a picture of a girl and you can see her underwear.

The first statement I guess is the social view of *gasp* why are you looking at a young girl who has exposed underwear?????

The second statement is more personal. Like. Okay. Its a girl and her underwear is showing. But are we supposed to be socially uncomfortable to see a girls underwear?

There aren't any suggestive shapes. You're not seeing any anatomy.

If she was wearing a full torso swimsuit that covered the upper arms and thighs, would it still be the same?
 

Chamaeleonx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
On the one hand its a picture of a girl and you can see her underwear.

On the other hand, its only a picture of a girl and you can see her underwear.

The first statement I guess is the social view of *gasp* why are you looking at a young girl who has exposed underwear?????

The second statement is more personal. Like. Okay. Its a girl and her underwear is showing. But are we supposed to be socially uncomfortable to see a girls underwear?

There aren't any suggestive shapes. You're not seeing any anatomy.

If she was wearing a full torso swimsuit that covered the upper arms and thighs, would it still be the same?
Could you even consider the clothing she is wearing underwear today? It looks like simple shorts, which don't have to be underwear in today's society.
But what you are saying plays in what I said before, at the base level it is a girl going something without any evaluation or meaning. the things she does are not sexual in itself, she simply has her leg lifted up, etc. .

Base level: things shown without any meaning
Personal level: Personal feelings, already influenced by society
Society level: How society views the things shown, your reaction to it, the feelings you have

Probably falls under the label of "How we construct our reality" in a broad sense. At least of the top of my head.
 

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
I'm just curious, legitimately, about something that just came to my mind.

Could someone explain the difference between this and the typical "loli panty shot" of a standard anime? Besides technical skill of course.
 

Fulminator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,199
i dont really mind the painting being there because it's not too egregious, imo, but a lot of his other paintings are...pretty fucking creepy
 

incogneato

Self Requested Ban
Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,119
I'm just curious, legitimately, about something that just came to my mind.

Could someone explain the difference between this and the typical "loli panty shot" of a standard anime? Besides technical skill of course.
The art in the OP uses pedophilic imagery as a means to incite a conversation about objectification while the loli panty shots relishes in sexualizing young female bodies. Video games have the capability to incite discussion about sexualization and objectification too; which is why I'm vocal in the threads on gaming side that a sexualized design is not inherently stigmatizing when framed under the right context and intent.
 

choodi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,589
Australia
It's art that is intended to make you feel uncomfortable. If you feel uncomfortable looking at it, then maybe the problem is with you, not the artwork.

Don't like this type of art? Don't go to the exhibition and don't go to the gallery which wants to challenge its visitors' emotions.

Stop trying to sanitise the world just because you have some sort of odd compulsion to be afraid of anything that even makes you feel slightly uncomfortable.
 

Chamaeleonx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
The art in the OP uses pedophilic imagery as a means to incite a conversation about objectification while the loli panty shots relishes in sexualizing young female bodies. Video games have the capability to incite discussion about sexualization and objectification too; which is why I'm vocal in the threads on gaming side that a sexualized design is not inherently stigmatizing when framed under the right context and intent.
What would you consider "right context and intent"? Because I am open to most context and intent however silly they may be. Personally I find it difficult to come to a conclusion on "What is right?" as it includes that someone is "wrong" as well. Can you be "wrong" in a piece of art?
 

Driggonny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,170
I'm just curious, legitimately, about something that just came to my mind.

Could someone explain the difference between this and the typical "loli panty shot" of a standard anime? Besides technical skill of course.
The only real difference is that this artist makes an excuse that sounds "artsy"
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,170
I politely disagree with you here. We should also acknowledge that an Anime can have the same intention and message as this painting has if you want it to.
I wish that anime (as a collective) would actually do that.

Instead, as mentioned before, the intent is usually not to be thought-provoking but instead just straightforwardly sexualize little girls. Works that serve as a criticism rather than blatant pandering are extremely rare in Japan's media landscape.

In this particular painting's case there is room for interpretation. Personally, given some of the artist's other works (which I looked up on Google), it's... difficult to give them the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, there is room for both the critical interpretation (that the subject is itself an indictment of how society views these girls' bodies) and the... less favorable interpretation (that the artist is using such as a shield to allow him to paint nude young girls). The fact that there is ambiguity here suggests that the plaque describing the work should at least make mention of said ambiguity. That's my interpretation, at least.
 

Driggonny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,170
I politely disagree with you here. We should also acknowledge that an Anime can have the same intention and message as this painting has if you want it to.
If I wanted it to lol.

I could take any giant booby cleavage shot from an anime and go "no... it is you who is wrong for sexualizing the boobs. I in fact hate boobs and made this to make you uncomfortable in front of your family!"

Well I guess it's a thought provoking peace now that deserves to be hung up in art galleries.
 

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
It's also entirely possibly that the artist wants to sexualize little girls while also being completely self-aware of the societal implications and wants to kill two birds with one stone because they are an artist.
 

Snowy

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,399
You seem to be going back to when people couldn't learn to read, if anything.
The petition calls for a simple plaque explaining the context of the image. People crying "censhorship" in this thread are really showing their asses.

Why this painting requires more explication than any other painting is not cogently argued for, however.
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
There's a line for everything and I don't think this crosses it. But it's way closer to pin up art than it should be. That pose is really unlikely and the shot is framed around her legs. He skates the line so closely that I have to think he's skating it on purpose.
 

TAJ

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,446
User banned (1 day): vulgar attack a moderator instead of PMing a mod/admin + sexist and inappropriate comment in a serious thread
The mod who gave that warning should get an embarrassing tag out of this.
Something like "Doesn't get pussy."
 

amodelmerol

Member
Oct 27, 2017
160
Mexico
I've never heard of the artist until now.

I see why it causes a commotion, which I could assume was the artist's intention all along.

I'm against removing it, as the portrait itself is harmless. However, we live in very sensitive times and the collective way of thinking is more broken than ever.

I wonder if art pieces like this one will still be exhibited in the near future
 

Chamaeleonx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
I wish that anime (as a collective) would actually do that.

Instead, as mentioned before, the intent is usually not to be thought-provoking but instead just straightforwardly sexualize little girls. Works that serve as a criticism rather than blatant pandering are extremely rare in Japan's media landscape.

In this particular painting's case there is room for interpretation. Personally, given some of the artist's other works (which I looked up on Google), it's... difficult to give them the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, there is room for both the critical interpretation (that the subject is itself an indictment of how society views these girls' bodies) and the... less favorable interpretation (that the artist is using such as a shield to allow him to paint nude young girls). The fact that there is ambiguity here suggests that the plaque describing the work should at least make mention of said ambiguity. That's my interpretation, at least.

I can agree. You often have to search more to find pieces that provide commentary or criticize something. But I believe there still are some, obviously not every seasons, not everyone a masterpiece, yet even more "normal" Animes can provide you with "food for thought" on societal or personal issues.
Personally I want them to do both, pandering is okay in my opinion as is some deeper, knowledge based series that require you to actually pay attention, to think and gives you this feeling of "I just finished this Anime and need a cup of tea to think about everything that happened".

Not that I disagree entirely with your interpretation as part of it is based on your personal sensibilities, but I would not stigmatize someone over paintings they made. I have no knowledge if the artist had such tendencies, simply painting a lot of young girls doesn't mean you favor them in a specific aspect of life over others. An example would be, just because I draw a lot of men doesn't mean I am interested in them in them in a sexual way. Obviously the artist could have been like this, but this is something I just don't know.
If I may point out, simply drawing young, nude girls doesn't mean you want to have sex with them. This is a nuance that I consider important. Ignoring details is never good in my opinion.

Of course I can agree with your idea of having a plaque that contains all the information. Though I personally wouldn't "label" an artist as something on it.
 

Jack Remington

User requested permanent ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,083
On the one hand its a picture of a girl and you can see her underwear.

On the other hand, its only a picture of a girl and you can see her underwear.

The first statement I guess is the social view of *gasp* why are you looking at a young girl who has exposed underwear?????

The second statement is more personal. Like. Okay. Its a girl and her underwear is showing. But are we supposed to be socially uncomfortable to see a girls underwear?

There aren't any suggestive shapes. You're not seeing any anatomy.

If she was wearing a full torso swimsuit that covered the upper arms and thighs, would it still be the same?

I'd agree with you if the guy hadn't drawn a fucking camel-toe into the picture. Like wtf?
 

Chamaeleonx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
If I wanted it to lol.

I could take any giant booby cleavage shot from an anime and go "no... it is you who is wrong for sexualizing the boobs. I in fact hate boobs and made this to make you uncomfortable in front of your family!"

Well I guess it's a thought provoking peace now that deserves to be hung up in art galleries.

While I agree with the base argument of things being neutral I can not agree with simply putting such a picture into an art gallery. You may ask why, a pretty simply reason, technical skill level. The paintings we have in galleries to preserve and look at are mostly highly skilled masterpieces that are really old. A simple drawing of a female body part would look, if you excuse the pun, comical next to it. Of course you could make a gallery for these specific topics and search for pieces that look the best and show the best technical skill level in their respective art form.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the differences between something that is frequently consumed as media and an art piece that probably took months if not years to complete and was produced with a specific intention in mind. There are obvious differences at play here and therefore they are not on the same level. At the same time this does not invalidate anything Anime related by the way. Both are mediums that can achieve the same results if they so desire. If they still exist, I am sure we still would have more cheaper and sexual art from the same time period that would not be on the same technical level.

Certainly you could make a complete gallery with different objectification of any gender in different Anime art styles. I am just not sure you would attract many paying customers that would like to see the gallery. Thus you would not reach a wide audience to make your point.
 

Bitanator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,041
I made the mistake of looking at the artists other paintings, I am now on the FBI watchlist
 

Chamaeleonx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
I'd agree with you if the guy hadn't drawn a fucking camel-toe into the picture. Like wtf?
I looked at the picture in the OP again and fail to see the "camel-toe" you mentioned. Even if it is there, why is it a bad thing? It would probably accentuate the point the artist wanted to make, especially if you looked at the picture with such intensity that you discovered a possible detail like that.

How do you expect me to control myself when you post smut like this?!
The funny or rather interesting part is, her face is totally serious and the only "sexual" or "suggestive" thing is the skirt with her leg raised that focuses the viewers imagination to this specific point. Even though all you are seeing is a body and a bit of clothing physics.

Honestly, despite my earlier statement about the discussion, this thread almost reminds me of my art class in school where we talked about a lot of controversial art pieces on all layers, personal, society, technical, background, motives, message, intention, time period, etc. . Really takes me back. =D
 

Driggonny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,170
While I agree with the base argument of things being neutral I can not agree with simply putting such a picture into an art gallery. You may ask why, a pretty simply reason, technical skill level. The paintings we have in galleries to preserve and look at are mostly highly skilled masterpieces that are really old. A simple drawing of a female body part would look, if you excuse the pun, comical next to it. Of course you could make a gallery for these specific topics and search for pieces that look the best and show the best technical skill level in their respective art form.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the differences between something that is frequently consumed as media and an art piece that probably took months if not years to complete and was produced with a specific intention in mind. There are obvious differences at play here and therefore they are not on the same level. At the same time this does not invalidate anything Anime related by the way. Both are mediums that can achieve the same results if they so desire. If they still exist, I am sure we still would have more cheaper and sexual art from the same time period that would not be on the same technical level.
Well the exact question I was answering was "other than technical skill." I can assure you I recognize the difference. Please pay attention to the discussion.
 
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