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Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,710
United States
This thread is a modified repost (or as I like to call it, a remaster) of a thread I originally made in 2015. It didn't get a lot of attention then and maybe it won't now either, but with the Kojima era of Metal Gear concluded, all we can do is forever revisit what made these experiences so memorable. These are our visitation rights.

If you like this thread, please leave a comment. My posts are written to be evergreen and it is never too late for a bump. These threads also take a long time to read, so by the time you're done, this thread will already be gone. I rely on the kindness of commenters to ensure these threads are seen by anyone at all.

Foreword(hasty readers can skip to Section One)
This analysis is in two sections, the second of which has multiple parts. The first section is a brief recap on the scene itself that leads up to the analysis itself in section two. I have tried to make the recap accessible to players who have not played the game, but I imagine this post will be far more meaningful to people who have properly completed Metal Gear Solid. This thread does not acknowledge Twin Snakes and uses the original Metal Gear Solid for PS1 as the primary text.

This was one of the earliest games I ever played on my Vita. I was confined to my bedroom during a blizzard, then in the ground-level basement of my parent's house, with no electricity, no heat, no running water, and no way to leave. Everyone else in the house had resigned to the darkness and gone to bed. But I was up. I couldn't sleep. Without getting out of bed, I turned the brightness all the way down on my Vita to conserve its battery and played Metal Gear Solid for the first time. This was three years ago, in January 2015, and I've been thinking about it ever since.

This thread is about what I consider one of the most exemplary instances of Kojima's early genius and the most narratively effective moment of the original Metal Gear Solid game. This is about the torture scene.


[Section 1] Part I: Background and setup; or, "Even I know that, it's the oldest trick in the book"
Even mentioning "the torture scene" surely reminds players of desperately pressing the circle button to keep Snake alive, or perhaps using the auto-fire function on a turbo controller to make the scene entirely trivial. But despite a formal monologue by Revolver Ocelot indicating the torture is about to start, the scene itself actually begins with Snake's first encounter with Sniper Wolf.

When Snake and Meryl first encounter Sniper Wolf, they are unaware of her presence, and Meryl is subsequently shot. The new situation is immediately apparent to them both: they are using Meryl as bait to lure Snake to either cooperate or be killed himself. Meryl urges Snake to kill her, or at least to leave her behind, but Snake refuses. Partly out of his obligation to her uncle, Colonel Campbell, but mostly out of his own compassion. Vetted soldier or not, Snake is not about to let Meryl die, even if he knows he is endangering himself in the process.

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Fully aware of the trap, but resigning himself to the circumstances, he leaves Meryl behind to retrieve a sniper rifle. But when he returns, only a blood stain remains where Meryl once lied. Is she alive? Where has she gone? Snake doesn't know and neither does the player. But Snake has played right into Sniper Wolf's hand - she ambushes him in a narrow outdoor passage and suppresses with her marksmanship. Although Snake is able to out-snipe her, his victory is short lived.

As Snake takes his first few steps forward, he is interrupted via Codec by Mei Ling, his data analyst.

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Mei Ling: Snake, wouldn't now be a good time to save your mission?

Snake: What's going on?

Mei Ling: I'm not sure... I'm getting a bad feeling.

Snake: A bad feeling?

Mei Ling: Like, a premonition or something.


SAVE

DO NOT SAVE

Saving one's game is, in almost every circumstance, dictated by player autonomy. A player might save obsessively, or rarely, or only at the end of their game sessions, or right before a challenging boss. But saving a game is a failsafe. It is preparation for whatever is about to happen next, regardless of what that is.

Here, Kojima uses the save function to foreshadow something terrible. He is certainly not the first to do this. Many RPGs feature ominous save points just before boss doors to warn the player of imminent danger. But in these circumstances, the decision to save and the ability to prepare for the challenge remains in player control. The player might heal up, or equip some items, or double back to be sure they haven't missed anything before leaving, or otherwise prepare themselves for the subsequent business.

But Snake has just completed a boss battle. There are no new items to equip. There is no boss door. The area is fully explored. There is only Mei Ling's warning of something sinister. Whatever is ahead, it is nothing Snake or the player can prepare for. The situation is out of the player's control.

Immediately thereafter, Snake is surrounded by Sniper Wolf and enemy troops. At gunpoint, and with no other options, Snake is forced to surrender.

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Sniper Wolf: Do you want to die now? Or after your female friend?

Snake is dragged away to Liquid and Ocelot to be tortured for information. He is told that Meryl is still alive, but maybe not for much longer. Further, Ocelot tells Snake that he is testing what kind of man he is. If Snake bows out of the physical torture and confesses the information Ocelot wants, Ocelot will simply torture and kill Meryl instead. Snake's options are clear:

  1. Die by electrocution
  2. Resist the painful electrocution and possibly save Meryl.
  3. Opt out of the torture, but suffer the anguish of knowing his friend died in his place.

Option two leads to the good ending, which is also canon. Option three leads to the bad ending, which is not canon. To properly complete Metal Gear Solid, the player must survive the torture.

Here, the player must rapidly press the circle button to prevent Snake's will to live from depleting. If the player fails, Snake dies, and the campaign ends. There is no option to continue, and the player must begin again from the main menu, resuming where they hopefully saved with Mei Ling. The sequence is extremely difficult and requires very rapid inputs to prevent failure. If the player simply cannot perform the inputs fast enough, they can confess the information that Ocelot wants. This will allow the player to proceed, but of course, at the cost of Meryl's life.

If the player survives the first round of torture, Snake is thrown into a solitary cell where he can converse with his contacts through Codec. Eventually, he will be taken back to the torture device, where he will be forced to endure the sequence a second time. If he doesn't discover a way to escape the cell, the torture will continue indefinitely.

Snake escapes by faking his suicide with packets of ketchup from Otacon, ending the scene. You can also hide from the guard while he is asleep and lure him into the room. If the player cannot figure this out, they will be eventually liberated by Gray Fox after further rounds of electroshock. The other option, of course, is for the player to never figure it out and quit the game forever.


[Section 2] Part I: Player empathy and real world parallels; or, "My arm hurts"
Video games are unique in the way they allow self-insertion by the player to experience the story in a deeper way. A player might be pressed with a tough choice, or enjoy a cathartic release upon beating an obstacle, or take pride in the responsibility of completing an objective. Horror games arouse and sustain player anxiety. Action games might make your palms sweat and elevate your heart rate. Player empathy is common, but largely underutilized in game narrative. While stories can still be effective, it is rare for a game's story to be inextricably entwined with its mechanics. While mechanics might advance a story the way a reader might turn the page of a book, mechanics do not always become the words on the page and help tell the story itself.

The genius of the MGS torture scene is how it brings the player into the same space as Snake and forces empathy towards the action unfolding. The player is not just watching Snake be tortured, they are being tortured themselves.

Players of Metal Gear Solid, did your arm begin to hurt during the torture sequence? The answer is probably yes.
"My arm hurts like hell and I've used a spoon a pen and a screwdriver and have been unable to get past halfway into the 4th shock." (link)

"Then my arm hurts and I spend the next 5 minutes talking to Cam[p]bell while I catch my breath." (link)

"But about half way through I could feel my finger,wrist and arm starting to hurt a bit. Then it hit me, Kojima is actually torturing me." (link)

Throughout the years, many players have realized that they themselves are being tortured during this sequence. Rapidly executing the circle input is a painful experience that often causes the player's forearm to become sore. The game itself even directly acknowledges this when Snake tells Naomi Hunter over Codec that his arm hurts. She instructs the player to put the controller on their arm and activates the vibrate function. This is really cheesy, but it is clear that causing the player physical pain was deliberate and intended.

But this is not where the connections end.
"Solitary confinement is crazy. It's adding more fuel to a fire because you're in a space, locked up, where you're already stressed, but now you're placed in a more critical condition. You're constantly confined to one spot and one smell. There's nothing to do. There's nowhere to go." --Nelson Fernandez, victim of solitary confinement in the American prison system

How long was it before you bugged out? How many times did you bang on the walls, knowing the only result would be the guard telling you to shut up? How many times did you run around in circles? How long was it before you did crazy stuff like crawl underneath the bed? Did you try to punch down the door?

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In gaming as a whole, some player habits are not anticipated. For example, players who begin Portal also spend sixty seconds in solitary confinement. They have a radio, a clipboard, and a toilet. As the timer counts down, players do strange things to combat the feeling of containment. Quite humorously, most players put the clipboard in the toilet.
I've decided to start a secret club dedicated to the holy act of putting the clipboard at the start of the first test chamber into the toilet.

I feel that as a compulsory act, many players have put the clipboard in the toilet. As such, we should celebrate our combined efforts to cram the clipboard down the toilet whenever we play Portal and Portal 2." (link)

These impulsive gestures, triggered by forced containment in a small space, are a form of anxiety. The player feels compelled to do something. Not being able to do something makes them antsy. It makes them impatient. Unable to proceed how they want to, they do strange and compulsory things to satisfy their frustration. Like a nervous tick, or an involuntary jitter, the player seeks ways to alleviate their stress, however minor.

These compulsory actions are anticipated by Kojima. Knocking on walls and crawling under the bed triggers unique dialog from the guard. To alleviate the player stress, Snake eventually receives a Codec call.


[Section 2] Part II: Cutscenes as reward; or, "Say something to take my mind off the pain"
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Snake: Naomi, please talk to me. Say something to take my mind off the pain.

Naomi: What can I say?

Snake: Anything.

Naomi: I'm not a very good talker.

Snake: Please. Tell me about yourself.

Metal Gear Solid came out during, and was the product of, the FMV movement on CD games. The inclusion of full motion video was a major selling point for the PS1 and its new content delivery format. Cutscenes were routinely used as a form of reward for the player. Clearing a certain boss, or beating the game, or even turning the game on for the first time, usually played an exciting CG cutscene that previous technology could never render. This notion was more than just a concept, it was a design philosophy. In a PlayStation 20th Anniversay Retrospective, Kat at USgamer mused:
"Cutscenes were not a thing that you skipped on the PlayStation. They were a reward for completing a hard battle; a mind-blowing bit of eye candy in which the PlayStation's CD storage was flaunted to the max. Square had the best cutscenes in those days, and they were used to make games like Final Fantasy VIII and Parasite Eve pop in a way they never could have on the SNES. They seem passe now; but for Sony, they ended the CD-ROM vs. cartridge debate before it ever really began."

Even as late as 2013, the philosophy of cutscenes as a reward was alive in the mind of director Masahiro Sakurai, who lamented YouTube's cheapening of the concept.
"I felt if players saw the cutscenes outside of the game, they would no longer serve as rewards for playing the game, so I've decided against having them." --Masahiro Sakurai on Super Smash Bros for Wii U and 3DS

While both of these quotes acknowledge the impact of the cutscenes-as-rewards being lessened, it is important to remember how different it was in 1999. Metal Gear Solid's long cinematics and high-quality voice acting were cutting-edge selling points for the game. They remained a hallmark for the series well beyond MGS1 and perhaps reached their nadir (in terms of effectiveness) in MGS4. But for Metal Gear Solid in 1999, there was no better way to alleviate the stress of the player and reward their endurance than to comfort them with a conversation.
"After an interrogation you would be thrown back your cell. They would shut the door and then first thing you would experience is someone coming closer, they would hold you, help you lie down, take the blindfold off, and put some water on your lips." --Lelia Pérez, victim of torture by the forces of Augusto Pinochet, Chile

When prisoners of war are tortured, but otherwise contained together, there is no greater asset to their survival than interpersonal bond. The mere presence of another human is enough to comfort a prisoner. Even though Snake has reason to be distrustful of Roy Campbell, the leader of his operation, he verbalizes that he still considers him a friend, and although he has no relationship with Naomi Hunter, he presses her to tell him about her life. In a period of great stress, Snake wants to talk to whoever he can. He wants to use whatever lifelines are around him, and in times like these, anyone at all welcome companion.
"I would rather have had the worst companion than no companion at all." --Terry Anderson, prisoner of war under Hezbollah in Lebanon

Like a tortured prisoner, the player is thrown back into Snake's cell and becomes anxious for interaction. Although not the longest in the game, Snake's seven-minute conversation between Roy Campbell, Naomi Hunter, and himself, serves as a stand-in for the inter-prisoner support system that POWs form. The ability to compassionately communicate with another human being is a luxury many prisoners are not afforded, but it makes all the difference.

Both Snake and the player have their stress soothed by the presence of another human being and conversation.
"I got through those hellish years by the grace and mercy of God, who provided me with a strong POW support system. That group included Naval aviators Jerry Denton and Jim Stockdale, the highest-ranking officer in the prison, who taught me the tap code on the prison walls so we could communicate to each other and other POWs. It kept our spirits up and saved our sanity." --Sam Johnson, victim of torture under the Vietcong during the Vietnam War


[Section 2] Part III: The Torture Itself; or, "Torture? This is an interrogation"
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Ocelot: When your life reaches zero, the game is over. There are no continues, my friend.

Of course, no part of this sequence would work if the actual act of torture were not effective. Thankfully, and of course, it is. To this day, first time players are agitated and tested by the difficulty of the sequence. Searching the scene will reveal two decades worth of people asking if the sequence can even be completed. Resisting the torture and surviving the electrocution is agonizing. Like Snake, the only thing that keeps the player involved with the sequence is their will to complete it. At any time, they can press select to confess the information and betray Meryl. I'm sure many players begin with the intention of keeping quiet, but find the torture too extreme, and are forced to press select to continue. It takes a committed player to get past the sequence, even if they are fortunate enough to pass on the first attempt, and it is a great relief when it is over.

After the initial electrocution, Snake is returned to his cell.

Once the player is here, and it is clear they cannot escape, anxiety and concern begin creeping again. Will they guards come back for me? Will Ocelot torture me again? The answer is, of course, yes. Yes they will. There is nothing you can do but wait, and when the time comes, you are strapped right back into the machine and forced to survive it again. If it was difficult the first time, it is even worse a second time. The player is tired. The player is upset. Like Snake, your will to proceed is being challenged. Your physical fortitude is being put to the test. Your loyalty to Meryl is the only thing keeping you strapped in this machine.

The challenge here is not one of skill or even luck. It is a test of will.

People do not usually forget this sequence. They remember how difficult it was, they remember how frustrated they felt, and players collectively moan and groan over having had to complete it. This section is not fun at all. People's experience this scene are almost universally negative. The long-term effects of this scene reflect the PTSD of torture victims who are permanently altered by their experiences. Like a torture victim yourself, you will never forget what happened to you. You will never forget what you endured. You will never forget how you suffered.

Thankfully, it's just a game.


[Section 3] Conclusion: "This is what it means to create context"
I anticipate that some folks reading this may be put-off that I am mentioning a difficult video game level in the same breath actual real-world torture. I hope it is obvious that the player experience with Metal Gear Solid is metaphoric and this thread is about comparison rather than equivalency.

Within the context of a video game, and in regards to player empathy and self-insertion, the torture sequence is a stressful and memorable event that forces you to come to terms with your own willpower. It uses tools that are unique to video games to portray its narrative through its mechanics and synchronize the player POV with that of its lead character. The player should now have some understanding of what Snake endured and, like many lessons from fiction, this understanding has practical value. But the player now has some context through which they might better understand their own world. Sometimes, just a taste is enough.

As I define more fully in my Luigi's Mansion thread, truly successful interactive narratives make mechanics an integral and indivisible component of the story. MGS was a groundbreaking video game that understood the scope of what was possible in the medium, but it far from perfected the balance between gameplay and cinematics. The game tends to trade these features off, giving each a turn, confining the story to cutscenes and full-screen conversations while the player partakes in somewhat detached character action. Gameplay doesn't become the fabric of the narrative except for this estimable part of the affair. Here, player and plot become seamless and inseparable. Neither exists without the other and the player becomes a fully immersed actor in the experience. What Kojima accomplished here in the torture scene, to me, is a early hearkening forward to Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty, our increasingly relevant postmodern masterpiece.

As video games become more and more advanced and the technology available allows us to interact more and more directly with the stories we consume, I think there will be renewed interest in how games historically tried to pull the player close and not let them go. Even though it's been three years, this one still holds me tight.

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Lost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,108
Well this is a god damn novel. Marked so I can read the whole thing later.
 

00stevenm

Member
Nov 6, 2017
64
Industry changer. Incredible narrative for a video game at that time. One of my favorite games ever.
 

Solid Shake

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,254
One of the most memorable sequences I've ever played in a game.

The torture segment is and will forever be genius.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
/\ That's pretty neat kenziko.

The most amazing thing about the torture sequence was, years later when I replayed the game, I discovered a Codec where Naomi tells you to put the controller against your arm.

She says it's to administer nanomachines to help ease the pain.

With my arm genuinely aching I placed the controller flat against it and suddenly it started to rumble so beautifully and the pain in my limb actually lessened, I even remember sighing with relief.

To me that's one of the most effective 4th wall breaking moments of all time.
 

Cess007

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,086
B.C., Mexico
What an incredible thread OP. I wanted to quote a lot of your lines (about the CGI, etc) but I will settle that it's a very good piece you've write.

/\ That's pretty neat.

The most amazing thing about the torture sequence was, years later when I replayed the game, I discovered a Codec where Naomi tells you to put the controller against your arm.

She says it's to administer nanomachines to help ease the pain.

With my arm genuinely aching I placed the controller flat against it and suddenly it started to rumble so beautifully and the pain in my limb actually lessened, I even remember sighing with relief.

To me that's one of the most effective 4th wall breaking moments of all time.

I just found that watching the Let's Play of PS Access. Never knew that.
 

Bishop89

What Are Ya' Selling?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,537
Melbourne, Australia
I played this for the first time in 2012-13, it blew my mind.

The characters are great, the gameplay is fun, it looks good still and the music/audio is phenomenal.

Duel theme playing during the Grey fox fight is a standout moment for me
 

AndersK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
754
Denmark
Just the best fucking thing. Oh. Man.

I really Had to struggle before I managed to reach Ocelot, but then I got hooked.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
I still remember how amazed we were playing it when it first came out. It definitely needs a remake or atleast a remaster on modern consoles and PC.
 

Kas'

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,299
It sometimes boggles my mind that Metal Gear Solid released in 1998. I remember going to the bunk Eagle Rock Plaza to get my game.

The intro to this day, is probably the greatest intro in any video game ever. I also vividly remember going on my 56k internet browser to find out how to beat Psycho Mantis and having my mind blown that I had to put my controller in slot 2 to beat him.

I love Hideo Kojima.
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,225
Great post. I still remember struggling to mash that button over and over.

That scene and the Psycho Mantis scene really underscore how much Kojima did to advance the way games could tell stories in ways specific to the medium. Using the physical aspects of the medium to bring the player into the narrative more directly. He was operating on another level from everyone else, and continued that in MGS2. I say "advance", but no one really followed in his footsteps, complacent to dish out the same formulaic storytelling conventions we had already had for 15 years. Undertale is maybe the only game I've played since then that has used the unique aspects of the medium to tell a story in a profoundly new way.
 

Rogue Blue

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,273
The way this game communicates with you in the real world still feels unmatched 20 years later.

I mean, looking on the back of the game cover to solve a puzzle, and plugging in the controller into the second port so that psycho mantis can't read your mind, it just comes together so well.
 

Twiz

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,478
Great write up. Metal Gear Solid is a certified classic and will always be my #1 game of all time because it pushed the boundaries of what a game could do and many games today are still playing catch up.
 

RionaaM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,852
Excellent analysis. This scene will remain in my memory forever, it's incredibly memorable. It's a test of endurance, both for the player and the character.

Sadly, playing the game on PC meant I missed those little touches that made it so special, like Psycho Mantis reading the controller inputs and saves, or the UI screw that happens during that battle, or Naomi's massage, but it was still amazing. One day I should replay it on PS3 to experience all that firsthand. Shame about the texture warping, which didn't happen on PC.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,847
Replaying, it was even more stressful because I had to do it several times in order to see Grey Fox opening the door instead of breaking out. What gets me all the time is the complete lack of music during the torture sequence.
 

Epinephrine

Member
Oct 27, 2017
842
North Carolina
Fantastic write-up for a fantastic game. It's definitely one of my all-time favorites and easily my favorite game of that generation.

It's funny though, I don't remember being particularly bothered by the torture sequence from a physical perspective. I remember hammering the hell out of a button, but never having an issue clearing it.
 

BouncyFrag

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,772
Nice post. I've finally started getting into MGS3 after playing 1 and 2 last year and watched review vids of them the other day to refresh. The controls have always been an issue with me but playing 3 on Vita is working out. I'm now just entering the warehouse before the lab and a fight with some old dude in a wheelchair is looming...
 

ISOM

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,684
How MGS1 is not the best game in the series for most people is puzzling.
 
OP
OP
Finale Fireworker

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,710
United States
Now that my thread title is fixed, I can finally show my face again.

A review I wrote from way back when http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/286722.stm

I loved it. Still do.

This is really cool. I grew up only playing Nintendo games and knowing virtually nothing about games on other hardware. I had a Nintendo 64 and one of my friends had a PS1, and I remember him trying to explain to me how "real" Metal Gear Solid felt. I kept getting hung up on the graphics, which I thought looked awful, but he kept telling me it wasn't just that. In 2000, when he was playing it, having a fully voiced experience with so much plot and so many cinematics was peak interactive storytelling. This was something that had never been done before and even he, as a twelve year old, knew it was groundbreaking. But his only way of describing it was in how "real" it was. Not like a movie, "real."

That didn't make sense to me until I played it for myself as an adult. What he was trying to tell me was how strongly the game resonated with him when he was playing it. It was the kind of game you lean forward when you play it and can feel the game lean towards you too. It was the game that shaved away, ever so slightly, at both sides of the television screen. Like you could feel that pane of glass just getting a little less impermeable.

I played it up close and personal on my little Vita, but it still felt like one of the biggest and deepest games I ever played. I have no idea how it would have felt to play this game in 1999. I always find it interesting to see how it affected people back then.

The most amazing thing about the torture sequence was, years later when I replayed the game, I discovered a Codec where Naomi tells you to put the controller against your arm.

She says it's to administer nanomachines to help ease the pain.

With my arm genuinely aching I placed the controller flat against it and suddenly it started to rumble so beautifully and the pain in my limb actually lessened, I even remember sighing with relief.

To me that's one of the most effective 4th wall breaking moments of all time.

Since I was playing on my Vita, which didn't have a rumble feature, this moment didn't have its fullest effect on me. But I did encounter this scene, and I was enthralled, because I knew what was supposed to be happening. I still wonder how it might have made me feel. Would I have done it? Would I have massaged my forearm with the controller like a dope? Would it have made me feel better? For me to do it, I would have had to trust Naomi Hunter, just like Snake. It's my only regret to playing the game on a handheld. I wish I could have experienced that moment properly.

It sometimes boggles my mind that Metal Gear Solid released in 1998. I remember going to the bunk Eagle Rock Plaza to get my game.

The intro to this day, is probably the greatest intro in any video game ever. I also vividly remember going on my 56k internet browser to find out how to beat Psycho Mantis and having my mind blown that I had to put my controller in slot 2 to beat him.

I love Hideo Kojima.

During this fight, when the screen goes black and says "HIDEO" at the top, I legitimately panicked and thought the game crashed. I knew Psycho Mantis messed with you, and I should have known it was a trick, but I still didn't. The only thing that gave it away was that I knew Hideo Kojima's name. If I had played it in 1999, I wouldn't have known who Kojima was, and I wouldn't have picked up on the visual cue. It's such a neat little trick.


Great post. I still remember struggling to mash that button over and over.

That scene and the Psycho Mantis scene really underscore how much Kojima did to advance the way games could tell stories in ways specific to the medium. Using the physical aspects of the medium to bring the player into the narrative more directly. He was operating on another level from everyone else, and continued that in MGS2. I say "advance", but no one really followed in his footsteps, complacent to dish out the same formulaic storytelling conventions we had already had for 15 years. Undertale is maybe the only game I've played since then that has used the unique aspects of the medium to tell a story in a profoundly new way.

You should see the thread I've been trying to write about Undertale. It's currently almost 10,000 words. It will be much, much shorter by the time I post it but it's the kind of game where to leave something out feels like a disservice to its achievements. There's so much that can potentially be said that I don't know where to stop. I just keep going because I feel like, to really get to the heart of what Undertale's most meaningful accomplishments are, I have to personally acknowledge all of them first. By the time I post that thread, it will probably only be one OP, but it will have been ten threads in the making.
 

Dernhelm

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,422
Excellent write-up OP, Kojima's talent at game design wasn't in question even at this early stage of his career, however the level in which he can marry gameplay to his narrative really started to shine in sequences like the torture one. Still my most tense and stressful portion of the game. I never even had a second thought about doing the 'bugged' out actions you describe, but yeah, there is literally a concentrated sense of isolationism and frustration deliberately put upon you as a player that, might I also note on this particular point the ingrained sense of provokation a player will typically feel due to a visual aide: the fact that the coned vision of the guard is constantly on you, and it's one of the very rare and unique instances where this isn't an immediate ALERT trigger - except it is, to you. From every single moment up until the cell, you are trained, ruthlessly by this game to avoid and fear that cone at all costs. When you do trigger it, you are immediately prompted into more desperate action, through sound, enemies and music. However, you don't get to keep seeing the cone, that goes away when the radar knocks out. Here, the itching dislike of that cone persists, with a latent sense of need to do something about avoiding it.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
Since I was playing on my Vita, which didn't have a rumble feature, this moment didn't have its fullest effect on me. But I did encounter this scene, and I was enthralled, because I knew what was supposed to be happening. I still wonder how it might have made me feel. Would I have done it? Would I have massaged my forearm with the controller like a dope? Would it have made me feel better? For me to do it, I would have had to trust Naomi Hunter, just like Snake. It's my only regret to playing the game on a handheld. I wish I could have experienced that moment properly.

I'm still finding new things in each game when I replay the series, I didn't even know about that codec in MGS1 until right before MGS4's release.
 

crpj31

Member
Dec 13, 2017
560
If you reach this part of the game without saving, Ocelot will say something like "You didn't save the game tough guy... Let's see how tough you are now..."
 
Oct 25, 2017
652
Noir York City
I beat MGS1 the first time going Otacon's route primarily because of the torture. I tried. I tried so hard! But in the end...well, you know.

When I beat the game, I immediately played again and dedicated myself to beating the torture sequence. Dedicated. It took a whole day but I eventually got to a point where I could get enough successes to proceed. That was a damn experience and, just like OP said, I'll never forget it.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,208
It took me and my brother alternating during that sequence the first time through for me to beat it. I was eight or nine at the time, but I muscled through it.

Meryl didn't die until a few playthroughs later when I wanted to find out what happened. Good times, those were. Game really only tires me out on Hard or Extreme, though Extreme is damn near impossible for me. Twin Snakes, not so much. Likewise with the paralleled scenes in MGS2.
 

Deleted member 14089

Oct 27, 2017
6,264
Excellent write-up.
Now reading your Luigi's mansion.

The best moment to this day is the introduction of metal gear, before you get to the snow level.
It teaches you almost all the game mechanics for the player.
Also it's a tense situation as you have to wait for the elevator to come down.
You have to stay still and wait at your position and not be seen by the guard. It sets the tone of the whole game well.
 

DarkLegion

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,679
This is some coincidental timing for me to find this thread.

Jusr watched the scene via AGDQ.

Awesome write up and analysis
 

vjoez55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
135
Top five best game of all time for me i played it without the radar map and still knew every inch of the game it was that damn good.
 

Al3x1s

Banned
Nov 13, 2017
2,824
Greece
Sniper wolf's lines are among the few gaming dialogues I remember (another is Dracula and Richter in SOTN, hah, like the total opposite).

Great section. Great game. I had practice from Saturn Decathlete/Athlete Kings (I strained my neck playing that thing, wore a collar too) and aced it. The massage rumble thing actually worked xD
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,910
Why do you put "; or" in all your thread titles? It's fucking weird and comes across embarrassingly pseudo intellectual.
 
OP
OP
Finale Fireworker

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,710
United States
Sniper wolf's lines are among the few gaming dialogues I remember (another is Dracula and Richter in SOTN, hah, like the total opposite).

I think what actually makes a lot of the dialog in Metal Gear Solid so memorable are all the international accents - Sniper Wolf among them. It makes every character feel distinct and ethnic and unique. Something I really dislike about Twin Snakes is that most of the unique speech patterns were removed in favor of neutral American accents.

But Sniper Wolf's immediately identifiable speech patterns helped give her a ton of personality in a game without faces.

Why do you put "; or" in all your thread titles? It's fucking weird and comes across embarrassingly pseudo intellectual.

It's just for fun... it's meant to be silly title format. You put your "serious" title first and your "funny" title second. I didn't come up with it. It's like Dr. Strangelove.

I don't know what is "embarrassingly pseudo intellectual" about that - that's kind of the joke. But you've made me feel pretty shitty about it so I won't do it anymore. I'm sorry you think my thread titles are weird. I just wanted them to be distinct. I put a lot of effort into these threads and prefer not to look like a fool, so I guess I appreciate the tip.

I sacrificed Meryl for that sweet stealth camouflage.

N O T C A N O N
 
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LeftStick

Member
Jan 7, 2018
2
San Diego, CA
MGS warped my fragile little mind when I was 11 or 12. I think the meta storytelling kick started my interest in fourth-wall breaking in games and movies. Nothing has ever matched the experience of playing this and MGS2 for the first time.
 

TheRightDeal

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,591
I remember your thread about this on GAF, and it was a pleasure to read through again! It's amazing to me that 20 years later games still fail to mix mechanics and narrative as well as MGS.
 
OP
OP
Finale Fireworker

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,710
United States
I remember your thread about this on GAF, and it was a pleasure to read through again! It's amazing to me that 20 years later games still fail to mix mechanics and narrative as well as MGS.

What's so interesting about this dynamic is that some games went on to take the wrong lessons from Metal Gear Solid - even MGS itself. Contention surrounding the series often comes from its emphasis and reliance on cutscenes to tell its stories. Metal Gear Solid 4 in particular had a lot of really long cutscenes and earned its grief about being "more of a movie" than a video game. Hideo Kojima's excessive cinematics are a hallmark of his work and are something his seminal series is famous for. But at the same time there were moments like this torture scene that wrapped the player around its fist and tugged them right into the fabric of the experience. Not the movies, the gameplay.

Metal Gear Solid has always been enigmatic like that. For as long as it sometimes keeps you waiting to play, it also uses gameplay in groundbreaking ways. Maybe not so much towards the end of the series, depending on who you talk to, but definitely early on.

In 2018, we still have games that rotate gameplay with cinematics and struggle to interlace them meaningfully. I do think games like Last of Us do a really good job at having cinematics that compliment thematically identical gameplay. But when pressed to find more modern examples of scenes like this torture sequence, not many come to mind. They're certainly out there, but just like in 1999, they are exceptions to the pattern.

But maybe that's what makes them so effective.

I would have loved to see what kind of story Kojima was going to tell in Silent Hills. The pieces of it you can assemble in P.T. are fascinating.
 

100mega

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,158
This game was my bday present and I remember sneaking into my parents closet to open it up and play it after spending so much time with the demo. I was having some of my own real life tactical espionage action while playing the first big chunk of the game. It's a total classic.