Metro Exodus for PC a timed exclusive for the Epic store (Steam preorders honoured, physical copy with Epic key). [READ staff post]

Oct 25, 2017
2,441
Yeah I've been struggling with the dueling narrative that the epic store is supposed to be so appealing because there is a huge built in Fortnite audience with the fact Epic is tossing money like crazy for exclusives. These two things don't really go together. If Epic could rely on a massive built in Fortnite audience to buy games from their store they would have no need for exclusives. The only real answer I can think of is Epic isn't fully confident they can convert the Fortnite audience to their store while they know the Steam audience buys tons of games.
This image from Galyonkin really illustrates that well:



This isn't even paid games, Steam profile shows f2p games too, you've installed.
So Fortnite audience is useless. I would imagine it has even more uselss as Fortnite audience is pretty young and Metro Exodus is rated 18+.
 
Oct 27, 2017
397
New Zealand
This honestly has to be a troll post because if not, then i have no hope
No troll, your hope has faded.

I pre-ordered on Steam, now will be playing on Epic, I just don't see the big deal at all...not one little bit.

As a reference: I looooove my Steam library of games, but I also like/love my GOG/Origin/Uplay/Epic/Bliz/Beth hosted games too...I see them as launchers, not much more. I have around 400 Steam games, lots of achievements and stuff, but I was ok with the client being moved over to Epic for this game - being a single player game too....I don't see what the problem is, at all.

Epic has the biggest game in the world right now, makes sense they'd want to jump on some market share, business wise at least.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,241


We take Games from the corrupt, the rich, the opressors of a generation that kept you down for a generation with myths of opportunity and give it back to you... the devs. Games are yours, do as you please. None shall interfere.But start by storming Steam and freeing the opressed! Valve will be ripped from their decadent nests, and cast out into the cold world we know and endure. Courts will be convened. Higher cuts will be enjoyed. Blood will be shed. The consumers will survive, as they learn to serve true justice. This great industry...it will endure. Games will survive!
 
Dec 18, 2017
2,475
This image from Galyonkin really illustrates that well:



This isn't even paid games, Steam profile shows f2p games too, you've installed.
So Fortnite audience is useless. I would imagine it has even more uselss as Fortnite audience is pretty young and Metro Exodus is rated 18+.
I don't understand this graph.

What are the axes?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,388
I don't understand this graph.

What are the axes?
X bar is the total number of games they own in Steam (mind you, they can also count F2P, so it wont be so precise). The population is also grouped in concrete groups (that is 1-5 games in Dota 2, CS:Go and Rocket League).

Y bar is the % of the population in that group. (Which you could consider the total population just scaled into a % to make comparisons easier).

For instance, 70% of Dota players have between 1-5 games.
We can see from this data that both Dota is very top heavy, CS:Go not as much (as I think the 50% total poopulation would be at around 1-20 games). Not sure why Torchlight 2 is there if we consider the amount of bvundles it has been in.

The average is how many games people own in average when they have Dota2. I dont think using average in this kind of games is a good idea, as some outliers could put the number way higher than it should. Dota 2 for instance where 70% of the population had tops 5 games and the average is 12. He should have used percentiles (50 percentile/ median, 60 percentile, ...)
 
Dec 18, 2017
2,475
X bar is the total number of games they own in Steam (mind you, they can also count F2P, so it wont be so precise). The population is also grouped in concrete groups (that is 1-5 games in Dota 2, CS:Go and Rocket League).

Y bar is the % of the population in that group. (Which you could consider the total population just scaled into a % to make comparisons easier).

For instance, 70% of Dota players have between 1-5 games.
We can see from this data that both Dota is very top heavy, CS:Go not as much (as I think the 50% total poopulation would be at around 1-20 games). Not sure why Torchlight 2 is there if we consider the amount of bvundles it has been in.

The average is how many games people own in average when they have Dota2. I dont think using average in this kind of games is a good idea, as some outliers could put the number way higher than it should. Dota 2 for instance where 70% of the population had tops 5 games and the average is 12. He should have used percentiles (50 percentile/ median, 60 percentile, ...)
I see. So are we drawing the conclusion that people into large multiplayer games don't tend to buy many other games? Hence Fortniters probalby won't either?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,388
I see. So are we drawing the conclusion that people into large multiplayer games don't tend to buy many other games? Hence Fortniters probalby won't either?
That was Galy conclusion and it has been true for a long time. Games that require a lot of time investment such as MMOs and F2P, normally have their population quite "captive" and do not play a lot of other games.

Edit: for instance a lot of the WOW base was a pretty "one game only" gamer. So it is not a new thing. We are also starting to see it more and more in the console market with the rise of GAAS.
 
Dec 18, 2017
2,475
That was Galy conclusion and it has been true for a long time. Games that require a lot of time investment such as MMOs and F2P, normally have their population quite "captive" and do not play a lot of other games.

Edit: for instance a lot of the WOW base was a pretty "one game only" gamer. So it is not a new thing. We are also starting to see it more and more in the console market with the rise of GAAS.
That's a reasonable conclusion, absolutely. Anyone who's played a multiplayer game like that knows it.

Anyway, thanks for helping me understand the graph.
 

Paul

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,852
I'm happy for 4A games going exclusive and getting a nice shot of $$ from Epic to help their studio out.

I pre-ordered on Steam, and my salt levels are not at all there, I'm truly bewildered at gamers getting so angry about this, and I'm actually cringe af ashamed of the review bombing that went on this last week, so juvenile and uncalled for.

That latest statement from 4A, about if it doesn't sell on PC then no PC next time, shows it really hurt them...and I'm ashamed of this, as a proud gamer.
Yes you should be ashamed of cheerleading for anti-customer corporate behavior for sure.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,383
Indonesia
I see. So are we drawing the conclusion that people into large multiplayer games don't tend to buy many other games? Hence Fortniters probalby won't either?
Yes.

Here in my country, and many other ones in Asia, F2P MMOs and mobile games are pretty big. People play them and enjoy them, and at some point they will start spending some money. That said, it doesn't mean that they're willing to buy actual games. It's just different. I have friends who have spent hundreds of dollars (converted) on F2P games, but they still refuse to buy games. These people value money per hours of play so much. If they can play for free and maybe spend some money as they see fit, why should they buy games that they can finish in several hours and be done with it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,388
That's a reasonable conclusion, absolutely. Anyone who's played a multiplayer game like that knows it.

Anyway, thanks for helping me understand the graph.
No problem, sometimes this type of charts are had to understand.

Also, even if something is "common knowledge" such as this case, it is important to have some proof behind it, as it is not strange for the "common knowledge" to be based on faulty data. His conclusion makes sense and is well founded. What would be moreinteresting would be a further analysis of how to transform those kind of players into other games. Which will be even more important with the rise of GAAS and more time-demanding games.

Yes.

Here in my country, and many other ones in Asia, F2P MMOs and mobile games are pretty big. People play them and enjoy them, and at some point they will start spending some money. That said, it doesn't mean that they're willing to buy actual games. It's just different. I have friends who have spent hundreds of dollars (converted) on F2P games, but they still refuse to buy games. These people value money per hours of play so much. If they can play for free and maybe spend some money as they see fit, why should they buy games that they can finish in several hours and be done with it.
To be honest, as a society we are normally always taught to think about the value of something in a money basis. That goes with most of the normal goods. Hell, we saw that last gen where everything added MP to add that "infinite value" or this gen with more open world designs to add much more replayability. In the end, the consumer has a limited pool of money and chooses games he thinks will give him the most "total fun" in the end, sometimes disregarding the actual level of "fun" he would be having each hour.
Which is an issue because people consider money a more important resource than time.
 
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inky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,222


We take Games from the corrupt, the rich, the opressors of a generation that kept you down for a generation with myths of opportunity and give it back to you... the devs. Games are yours, do as you please. None shall interfere.But start by storming Steam and freeing the opressed! Valve will be ripped from their decadent nests, and cast out into the cold world we know and endure. Courts will be convened. Higher cuts will be enjoyed. Blood will be shed. The consumers will survive, as they learn to serve true justice. This great industry...it will endure. Games will survive!
LMAO
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,202
USA USA USA
I'm happy for 4A games going exclusive and getting a nice shot of $$ from Epic to help their studio out.

I pre-ordered on Steam, and my salt levels are not at all there, I'm truly bewildered at gamers getting so angry about this, and I'm actually cringe af ashamed of the review bombing that went on this last week, so juvenile and uncalled for.

That latest statement from 4A, about if it doesn't sell on PC then no PC next time, shows it really hurt them...and I'm ashamed of this, as a proud gamer.
you should be ashamed of saying "proud gamer" unironically
 
Oct 27, 2017
611
USA
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqq1h9

The recent decision to move Metro Exodus from Steam to the Epic Game Store was made by Koch Media / Deep Silver alone.

The recent comments made by a member of the 4A Games development team do not reflect Deep Silver’s or 4A Games’ view on the future of the franchise. They do reflect the hurt and disappointment of a passionate individual who has seen what was previously nothing but positive goodwill towards his work turn to controversy due to a business decision he had no control over. We respectfully ask that any and all valid feedback over this decision is directed at Koch Media / Deep Silver, and not the developers at 4A Games.

The future release strategy of the Metro series lies with Koch Media / Deep Silver. Our decision to partner with Epic Games was based on the goal of investing in the future of the series and our development partner at 4A Games. We have every intention of continuing this franchise, and a PC version will always be at the heart of our plans.
 
Dec 30, 2018
295
This happened to me too, my account was created to play Paragon, when fortnite exploded I got every fucking day mail about login attempts, had to wait 2 months from the support to get my account deleted.
Yeah, exact same thing happened to me, everyday about 4-5 times about login attempts, spamming the hell out of my email and it took them 3+ months to shut my account.

I don’t think they are ready to provide a store front tbh.
 
Nov 15, 2017
965
1.) It's not 4A that is getting the extra money. It's DeepSilver and ultimately THQ shareholders. Hurray!
2.) At best 4A won't notice a difference in their salaries. At worst they'll miss out on bonuses if there are any and they are bound to sale numbers.
(It's probably the former)
3.) Steam still has a larger user base then epic, so this argument doesn't hold up. Especially if you count in china that doesn't get the game now at all. And if you don't understand how big of a market china is... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
4.) The cut between Epic and DeepSilver/Kochmedia is 88-12. Unless you have any kind of numbers how much money epic used to bribe them and what the estimated sales figures are.
My mistake. I thought this was an A4 decision. Kinda a shitty move from the shareholders, I can understand it from their point of view. It is a money grab and nothing more. But it does mess up the release structure of not putting this game on Valves platform on day one. With the rising popularity of the Epics Game Client thanks to Fortnites massive popularity. It doesn't take much to convince anyone to install it. Kinda funny about the Chinese market, because one of Epics biggest shareholders is a Chinese company. But I guess the Epic game store is not available in that region? I have no idea.

Under other circumstances, I would not snub the idea of pushing a game on the Epic game store, just to take advantage of that larger royalty. I'm generally for whatever puts more money into the pockets of the developers, within reason that it does not rip off the consumers. So initially I thought this was a good idea. But I did write my last post before reading through the whole thread and understanding that this was a shit deal from shareholders. Like you said, they are not doing anything illegal. It's just a cash grab, as I said above.
 
Oct 27, 2017
397
New Zealand
you should be ashamed of saying "proud gamer" unironically
Chortle, yeah ok.

Additionally, the statement from 4A today (Metro-game) was perfection, and I LOVE how they still backed their dev who spoke out, albeit in a low key fashion.

Once again I state firm and clear: this is small fish in the scheme of things, having to use the EGS for Exodus should in no way be reason to throw all the toys and attack 4A directly as was done in many, many circles (glances scornfully at Reddit most of all). Trying to destroy review averages for hard working devs in a juvenile pitchfork mob is unseemly, and just plain yuck.

It's not cool to be yuck.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,378
Chortle, yeah ok.

Additionally, the statement from 4A today (Metro-game) was perfection, and I LOVE how they still backed their dev who spoke out, albeit in a low key fashion.

Once again I state firm and clear: this is small fish in the scheme of things, having to use the EGS for Exodus should in no way be reason to throw all the toys and attack 4A directly as was done in many, many circles (glances scornfully at Reddit most of all). Trying to destroy review averages for hard working devs in a juvenile pitchfork mob is unseemly, and just plain yuck.

It's not cool to be yuck.
Good lord...

It's not about this one game. Not really. It's about:

1) A company seeing fit to use Valve/Steam as a free PR/marketing machine only to then turn around, remove the game from Steam - thus preventing people who really only use Steam from buying it for a year - and have a timed exclusivity deal with another store where there's a minimum of features.
2) It's also about the precedent. Not just the precedent in 1, where a company has essentially abused Valve's goodwill and store features, but also the precedent of third-party games being exclusively sold on a store where there is a minimum of price competition, and also the precedent that third-party games can be bought-out as exclusives on PC. This is literally turning the PC market into the console one, and if we could all go back 10/15/20 years and have no third-party exclusives in the console market, I think we would all choose that. No, it's not an exact analogy because of hardware purchasing, but the concept of paying money to a third-party company for exclusivity is the same. For pubs/devs, it's a very similar situation, even if, for the consumer, it's quite different.
3) If you think 1 (and to an extent 2) is just paranoia/throwing a tanty, have a read of this: http://robf.punchingrobots.club/index.php/2019/01/30/fairness/ I linked to it a few days ago, and it really points-up how Epic, pubs/devs and the Metro Exodus deal could screw over pubs and devs in the long-term.

Edit: Via the PC Gaming thread: https://www.spieltimes.com/news/met...re-epic-games-exclusivity-production-process/

It was after E3 2018 when 4A Games was informed about the Epic Games Store exclusivity. Metro Exodus was still a game for Steam in terms of development before that time of period. “Well after that(E3 2018), that’s all I can say”, my source confirmed.
Now, this can be read two different ways. After as in "some time after", or after as in "just after".
 
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Oct 27, 2017
1,109
Chortle, yeah ok.

Additionally, the statement from 4A today (Metro-game) was perfection, and I LOVE how they still backed their dev who spoke out, albeit in a low key fashion.

Once again I state firm and clear: this is small fish in the scheme of things, having to use the EGS for Exodus should in no way be reason to throw all the toys and attack 4A directly as was done in many, many circles (glances scornfully at Reddit most of all). Trying to destroy review averages for hard working devs in a juvenile pitchfork mob is unseemly, and just plain yuck.

It's not cool to be yuck.
So you preordered a better Steam version and not the EGS version. Yet you talk about how EGS will be fine (presumebly without having any first hand experience with it). You talk down people who want to do the same as you did, they just want a choice to buy the Steam version. Can you get any more hypocritical?
 
Sep 7, 2018
1,240
Epic has straight up come out and said most of the people who downloaded and use the Epic Launcher don't have steam accounts. They're kids who downloaded it for Fortnite. You can't argue that Epic is piggybacking off of Steam making PC gaming bigger when Epic isn't necessarily targeting the people who have Steam accounts.
When you pay publishers and developers to not sell their games on Steam, you're very clearly targeting Steam users. Epic knows that the vast majority of Fortnite players are not premium consumers. They aren't going to spend money on games that aren't Fortnite. Steam users, on the other hand, have proven that they will. The first two Metro games were on Steam so it's safe to assume that most Metro fans have Steam accounts.
 
Already removed. What did he say?
Weird. I can keep watching it. Anyway, here is the transcription:

"Hello, I'm Dmitri Glukhosvky, the author of the Metro books and the creator of the Metro franchise. For over 20 years, I've been working to bring the story to a different medium, including the video games, thanks to the support, help, and heroic efforts from the part of 4A. The efforts were truly outstanding and so is the outcome of their efforts, with the new Metro Exodus video game coming out in just a week from now.

I'm very sorry about those of you who wanted and expected to release on Steam and who are mislead by the move by the publishers. I understand that the publisher fooling uniquely financed the development of these games so I trust them with the correctness of this solution. Again, we're all very sorry that you're hurt. We just hope that you will not betray us just as we'll stay always faithful to you, bringing the uncompromised story and uncompromised quality of experience. Thank you very much."
 
Jan 17, 2018
1,048
I feel sorry for Glukhovsky and 4A. I understand what he says, Deep Silver put the money on the table and it's their choice on how they want to recoup the money spent. What I don't understand is the talk about betrayal. Players who refuse to buy Metro at EGS aren't betraying anyone, they simply don't want to be treated like shit. Unfortunately for the devs the most effective way to show Deep Silver/THQ that customers don't support practices that are harmful for us is to not spend the money on the game in question. At the end of a day they already received financial incentive from Epic, so, what's the problem again?
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,885
I understand the author's intent of making an emotional plea to customers and I understand that the publisher ultimately calls the shots. However, the fact remains that the customers shouldn't be expected to behave and spend their money based on emotion when the other party is operating on strict business terms. If customers end up not buying the game they won't have 'betrayed' the author and the developers but reacted against a business decision with their own business decision.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,326
Belgium
I feel sorry for Glukhovsky and 4A. I understand what he says, Deep Silver put the money on the table and it's their choice on how they want to recoup the money spent. What I don't understand is the talk about betrayal. Players who refuse to buy Metro at EGS aren't betraying anyone, they simply don't want to be treated like shit. Unfortunately for the devs the most effective way to show Deep Silver/THQ that customers don't support practices that are harmful for us is to not spend the money on the game in question. At the end of a day they already received financial incentive from Epic, so, what's the problem again?
Well said.

For some reason Instagram said the message was removed, but I can see it now as well.

I 'm curious what the responses are. Anyone speaking Russian here?
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,326
Belgium
Nothing especially interesting. Mostly either "we are loyal fans and we will buy it anywhere", "EGS sucks" or "I'll buy it on console" comments plus pissing contests between commenters.
Haha thanks 😊

I can only hope the first group is a minority. If pc gamers accept Epic's moneyhatting and buy this game on EGS anyway, this may have a significant impact on the future of pc gaming.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,967
Haha thanks 😊

I can only hope the first group is a minority. If pc gamers accept Epic's moneyhatting and buy this game on EGS anyway, this may have a significant impact on the future of pc gaming.
This is possible but I think there are too many games released for Epic to spend money on getting exclusives for all of them. Even if Epic get people to buy Metro from their store front on PC, most will still ignore the Epic Games Store, go back to Steam for everything else, and remember the annoyance of having to use the Epic launcher every time they want to play Metro. This isn't a sustainable business model unless epic want to fund nearly all future games.

The only way Epic is going to sustain their store is if they make it a better place for people to get and play their games then they currently can on Steam. Actually push Steam to get better organically in a way that doesn't seem like it is punishing the consumer. Anything else and people will just reluctantly use the epic games store for games they can't get on Steam at best, and ignore these games at worst.
 
Dec 13, 2017
450
So, just pulling the game out of Steam wasn't enough for Deep Silver, and now they even made a pre-load exclusive to EGS?

Seriously, what are these dumbasses trying to achieve with this shitstorm?
 
Oct 25, 2017
647
Australia
Just read that statement from the author about how he hopes fans don’t “betray” them over the Steam fiasco. What kind of bullshit is that? We are customers and no company is entitled to our business, for whatever reason. Shit like that makes me want to buy the game LESS just on principle, regardless of everything else that has gone on :/
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,941
The publisher has clearly made some questionable decisions regarding the release of this game, but I still feel like people are way overreacting to all of this. I don't know, maybe there's something here I'm missing.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,735
The publisher has clearly made some questionable decisions regarding the release of this game, but I still feel like people are way overreacting to all of this. I don't know, maybe there's something here I'm missing.
I've said it a hundred times, but the Epic Store doesn't even have an offline mode. You even have to be online to launch Shadow Complex and Super Meat Boy. That's a huge dealbreaker for me, and I'm baffled the always-online aspect of the store isn't a bigger deal.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,022
Just read that statement from the author about how he hopes fans don’t “betray” them over the Steam fiasco. What kind of bullshit is that? We are customers and no company is entitled to our business, for whatever reason. Shit like that makes me want to buy the game LESS just on principle, regardless of everything else that has gone on :/
I won't betray them as I will still purchase the game just not day one. I can wait a year easily.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,266
Just read that statement from the author about how he hopes fans don’t “betray” them over the Steam fiasco. What kind of bullshit is that? We are customers and no company is entitled to our business, for whatever reason. Shit like that makes me want to buy the game LESS just on principle, regardless of everything else that has gone on :/
I believe the betryal comment is in relation to pirating the game.
 
Oct 26, 2017
638
Sweden
The publisher has clearly made some questionable decisions regarding the release of this game, but I still feel like people are way overreacting to all of this. I don't know, maybe there's something here I'm missing.
There is something yes.

First it’s not just questionable but outright anti-consumer behaviour from both Epic and Deep Silver (Koch Media).

EGS doesn’t have basic features like cloud saves or an offline mode, doesn’t cover payment costs (since those 12% are not enough, uh oh) and for a whole bunch of customers the game is now either more expensive or the same price but with way less features.

And then we have the security concerns. There have been reports of issues and people in this very thread talk about being bombarded with login attempts. People want those Fortnite accounts. That’s not a place where I wanna put my personal info.