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Should we move to a new OT?

  • Yes

    Votes: 86 21.9%
  • No

    Votes: 80 20.4%
  • Wait until a couple weeks before E3

    Votes: 226 57.7%

  • Total voters
    392
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,667
The Milky Way
Lionhead, Press Play, Team Dakota, let go of Twisted Pixel. Then there were those four small teams that never did anything - LXP, Big Science and I can't remember the other two. That's not all bad though, sometimes you need to make tough decisions though now that he's talked about acquisitions, he needs to to it. That simple.
Sony has similarly made some high profile closures in recent years like Incognito, Zipper, Sony Liverpool, Evolution, Sony Cambridge. Studios are incredibly expensive to maintain and so there is a need to be ruthless if they're not delivering the goods.
 
Oct 27, 2017
646
Not sure how true, but some believe that Terry Myerson (Windows boss, who Phil reported to before being promoted as a direct report to satya) had his hands tied a bit.

He has more freedom now, he doesn't have to report to Terry first, he goes straight to Sayta. Things change, sometimes quickly.
 

Hindle

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,449
Studio closures are part of the business.

Lionhead were mismanaged by making Legends instead of Fable 4. That was a mistake

Things take time, its that simple.
 

EdgeXL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,788
California
When it comes to Spencer, im amazed by how much slack this guy is given. smh.

I don't think he is getting any undeserved slack. He hasn't been on the job for four years yet and one by one he has been addressing criticisms about the Xbox One. He moved apps like Netflix from behind the Gold paywall. He halted the bundled Kinect with every console. He addressed the power issue. The games lineup is obviously the most important but that also takes the longest time to address.

We can certainly argue whether it was a good idea or not to wait for the UWP to be implemented before greenlighting a number of games but I think it is too early to say whether he is doing an awful job, a great job or somewhere in between.
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,347
It's more of a basic understanding of how a business works, the time it takes, and that there is no quick fix.

Spencer has done a lot of good for the Xbox brand.
I agree, from the way things have unfolded he seems to have had a limit to what he could invest in. He has prioritised Platform > Hardware > Software in that order. A lot of on lookers have the impression money can be spent on all things at once, given MS huge cash reserves. I think Spencers previous position and inability to get things approved had something to do with it.

Then again the cancellations like Scalebound and Fable Legends speak otherwise. They may have been an effort to stop poor spending/management.
 

Shingi_70

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,782
I mean canceling Scalebound and Fable legends were cutting the fat in terms of new leadership coming. Scalebound seemed to need at least another year and legends was still going nowhere
 

daniel77733

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,639
It's more of a basic understanding of how a business works, the time it takes, and that there is no quick fix.

Spencer has done a lot of good for the Xbox brand.

Well, maybe he's in the wrong business because to me, the most important aspect of the video game business is just that - video games and in this aspect, Spencer's history and resume look bad. He prefers to spend millions upon millions on timed exclusives such as ROTTR and DR4 instead of putting that money towards a new studio and staff to where not only they might actually make some good or better games but in the long term, would be a far better investment. Four years is NOT a quick fix. One more year and it's a half a decade. How many free passes until he's held accountable?

You say Lionhead was mismanaged. Wouldn't that be on Spencer? Once he took over in 2014, he should have green lit that Mature rated Fable game that Lionhead pitched and was shot down because even if it bombs, it's STILL a far better idea and concept than what Legends turned out to be.

Spencer has done a lot of good for the brand in every other aspect. Problem is that the majority don't care about all of those other aspects including me. I spend a few hundred dollars on a gaming console and I expect some exclusives. All the other shit means nothing to me. Show me some games. Last exclusive I have played was Gears of War 4. That's 15 months ago and it looks like I have at least another three months give or take to go before State of Decay 2 gets released.

My main problem with Spencer is that he mouths off about acquiring new studios and making partnership deals. Some deals are good and acquiring some studios is good but instead, why NOT form and create a new studio and internal development team that can be around for far longer than just one game? He mismanages the money he's given to spend for gaming. Seriously, WHY spend millions on timed exclusives when they're one and done and chances are, won't do anything to help sell more consoles?

I just want to see some good stuff happen so I can be more confident in the brand in the future. Doing these one and done type deals isn't going to do it. Instead of the same PR speak over and over, show me. Prove me wrong. I'll be happy if he does but thus far, he's had more negatives than positives for me personally. Hopefully, he comes out swinging at E3.

I don't think he is getting any undeserved slack. He hasn't been on the job for four years yet and one by one he has been addressing criticisms about the Xbox One. He moved apps like Netflix from behind the Gold paywall. He halted the bundled Kinect with every console. He addressed the power issue. The games lineup is obviously the most important but that also takes the longest time to address.

We can certainly argue whether it was a good idea or not to wait for the UWP to be implemented before greenlighting a number of games but I think it is too early to say whether he is doing an awful job, a great job or somewhere in between.

I agree but like I stated above, my concern is in regards to exclusives. He does deals that are timed (which I see as nothing more than a waste of money) one and done as opposed to opening new studios and trying to get something going not even for Xbox One but for next gen and the gen after that. He seems to be the type who likes to make a big splash with nothing but style and no substance.

If Playground Games is indeed working on a new Fable game, why not keep Lionhead and you know, actually let them make the Fable game that they wanted to make instead of this Legends garbage? They could have had that and still went to Playground for another game.

To me, it's just nothing but the same PR bullshit that he's spewed for four years and when it comes to the most important aspect, he's thus far for the most part has failed.

This is obviously just my opinion but im simply tired of reading about all this shit but seeing nothing.
 
Oct 29, 2017
357
Studio closures are part of the business.

Lionhead were mismanaged by making Legends instead of Fable 4. That was a mistake

Things take time, its that simple.
Nah Lionheads real problem was making lackluster games. They were all mediocre. If Legends had good gameplay it could have outshined every other Fable game but it didn't. Having played Legends it was a very good idea and the potential was there. Miss each of the characters they introduced.
 

Silky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,522
Georgia
Nah Lionheads real problem was making lackluster games. They were all mediocre. If Legends had good gameplay it could have outshined every other Fable game but it didn't. Having played Legends it was a very good idea and the potential was there. Miss each of the characters they introduced.

Yeah cool those mediocre Fable games managed to sell a lot and that a 4+year project like fable legends burning money without anything of fruit says a who lot about MS's confidence of the IP at that time
 

Hindle

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,449
Well, maybe he's in the wrong business because to me, the most important aspect of the video game business is just that - video games and in this aspect, Spencer's history and resume look bad. He prefers to spend millions upon millions on timed exclusives such as ROTTR and DR4 instead of putting that money towards a new studio and staff to where not only they might actually make some good or better games but in the long term, would be a far better investment. Four years is NOT a quick fix. One more year and it's a half a decade. How many free passes until he's held accountable?

You say Lionhead was mismanaged. Wouldn't that be on Spencer? Once he took over in 2014, he should have green lit that Mature rated Fable game that Lionhead pitched and was shot down because even if it bombs, it's STILL a far better idea and concept than what Legends turned out to be.

Spencer has done a lot of good for the brand in every other aspect. Problem is that the majority don't care about all of those other aspects including me. I spend a few hundred dollars on a gaming console and I expect some exclusives. All the other shit means nothing to me. Show me some games. Last exclusive I have played was Gears of War 4. That's 15 months ago and it looks like I have at least another three months give or take to go before State of Decay 2 gets released.

My main problem with Spencer is that he mouths off about acquiring new studios and making partnership deals. Some deals are good and acquiring some studios is good but instead, why NOT form and create a new studio and internal development team that can be around for far longer than just one game? He mismanages the money he's given to spend for gaming. Seriously, WHY spend millions on timed exclusives when they're one and done and chances are, won't do anything to help sell more consoles?

I just want to see some good stuff happen so I can be more confident in the brand in the future. Doing these one and done type deals isn't going to do it. Instead of the same PR speak over and over, show me. Prove me wrong. I'll be happy if he does but thus far, he's had more negatives than positives for me personally. Hopefully, he comes out swinging at E3.



I agree but like I stated above, my concern is in regards to exclusives. He does deals that are timed (which I see as nothing more than a waste of money) one and done as opposed to opening new studios and trying to get something going not even for Xbox One but for next gen and the gen after that. He seems to be the type who likes to make a big splash with nothing but style and no substance.

If Playground Games is indeed working on a new Fable game, why not keep Lionhead and you know, actually let them make the Fable game that they wanted to make instead of this Legends garbage? They could have had that and still went to Playground for another game.

To me, it's just nothing but the same PR bullshit that he's spewed for four years and when it comes to the most important aspect, he's thus far for the most part has failed.

This is obviously just my opinion but im simply tired of reading about all this shit but seeing nothing.

Four years is nothing in the industry.
And your entire post in all honesty reeks of ignorance, lack of knowledge of any forms of managing a Studio, complete disregard to budgets and how to chanel them etc.
 

RellikSK

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,470
Nah Lionheads real problem was making lackluster games. They were all mediocre. If Legends had good gameplay it could have outshined every other Fable game but it didn't. Having played Legends it was a very good idea and the potential was there. Miss each of the characters they introduced.

Nope, Lionhead was clearly mismanaged. First they wanted to make a proper Fable game, something which MS is doing now. They got stuck making making a F2P game instead because Phil Harrison saw the success of F2P games on PC and Mobile. This was meant to be a small-medium sized budget game but Phil Spencer also wanted the game to be AAA with shiny graphics and all, to show off the new console. Years later and several delays and with the feedback from the Beta probably wasn't that great, MS saw the writing and didn't bother releasing and just shut the studio after wasting $75 million. Clearly mismanaged, got stuck making a game they didn't want to make, the budget of the game blew way higher than originally planned. If MS just let Lionhead make the game they wanted instead of chasing trends they would have ended up with a Fable game in 2017 probably at the lastest.
 

Hindle

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,449
Anyway, I'm personally hoping we see a 2D Banjo game.

My dream developer for it would be Moon.
 

Hindle

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,449
I can't see MS creating a new studio to work on a new IP.

Too much risk.

Instead as the rumours suggest, I expect new studios to work on reboots of existing franchises.
 

EdgeXL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,788
California
If Playground Games is indeed working on a new Fable game, why not keep Lionhead and you know, actually let them make t/he Fable game that they wanted to make instead of this Legends garbage? They could have had that and still went to Playground for another game.

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Legends greenlighted during the Mattrick era? As I recall, Fable 4 was shot down under an entirely different CEO and a different head of Xbox. Sure, it would have been better to have Fable 4 by now and get PG to make a different game.

To me, it's just nothing but the same PR bullshit that he's spewed for four years and when it comes to the most important aspect, he's thus far for the most part has failed. This is obviously just my opinion but im simply tired of reading about all this shit but seeing nothing.

Well, if you're tired of reading it then perhaps you'd prefer to not open and read threads discussing Microsoft's current and future projects? Speaking only for myself, I do not read topics that I am tired of reading.
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,347
I can't see MS creating a new studio to work on a new IP.

Too much risk.

Instead as the rumours suggest, I expect new studios to work on reboots of existing franchises.
They don't even need to create new IP, they have a goldmine of franchises they can tap into.
Practically all their new IP efforts have been 2nd party in nature.
 

Hindle

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,449
1 year can dramatically change the industry. Just look at PUBG and every other battle royal game, yet here you try to say that 4 years is nothing...

The poster thinks a you can make a AAA game, and open a new studio to do so in 4 years.

I just think to get it right, it takes time
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,116
Amalthea
Because you can easily make a Triple A game and studio in a month, right?!
If you could alter the meaning of Triple-A, you could make a great Triple-A asset flip from folks you find off the street!
Kidding, kidding!

But yes you're right, these things take time. Especially new IP, which has the ability to either launch with soaring praise and sales or fall flat on its face. The middle ground can happen, too, but not as often as they should.
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,416
Was thinking how we get both 2D Mario and 3D Mario.

I'd love a 2D Banjo game. Plays like Ori or Cuphead.

Would be awesome

At that point they might as well make a new IP. No point using the Banjo licence for something so different. If Banjo does come back, in my opinion, it should be their platformer but with something new.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,202
At that point they might as well make a new IP. No point using the Banjo licence for something so different. If Banjo does come back, in my opinion, it should be their platformer but with something new.

Yea. I'm all for having some creative license with sequels, but when you start talking about a 2D Banjo with shades of Ori or Cuphead... then maybe you should be considering a different, more compatible IP, if not a completely new one.
 

Salty Hippo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
362
If things work out for Xbox, Salty Hippo's posts will be interesting to read 5 years from now. ;)

No one wishes it works out more than I do and I'll be the first to admit Phil Spencer is doing a goob job on that front when he actually shows me the receipts. I just don't count my chickens before they hatch and I don't jump on low evidence hype bandwagons like some here like to do.

It's been over 3 disastrous years with this guy in charge and even if things magically turn for the better tomorrow that won't make the concerns I express today not valid.
 

daniel77733

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,639
Four years is nothing in the industry.
And your entire post in all honesty reeks of ignorance, lack of knowledge of any forms of managing a Studio, complete disregard to budgets and how to chanel them etc.

The poster thinks a you can make a AAA game, and open a new studio to do so in 4 years.

I just think to get it right, it takes time

Four years is nothing? Really? Tell that to Nintendo as the latest example. Less than a year and thus far, a total and complete turn around from Wii U.

I don't have any knowledge in regards to managing a studio but channeling a budget to timed exclusive games as opposed to putting that budget towards opening up a new studio doesn't seem to be a great way of "managing" budgets. If anything, that's like flushing money down the toilet.

I think four years is definitely enough time to open a new studio and make an AAA game. It's been done before, is currently being done (Biomutant is a perfect example) and can easily continue to be done. I think instead of looking at how I would "disregard" budgets, maybe you should look at how Spencer has actually used the "budgets" he has been given and ask yourself - has he used those budgets to it's maximum capability? I don't believe that he has.

At the very least, it's been at least three years or longer since the timed exclusive deal was made for ROTTR. You're telling me that in all of this time between then and now that a new studio couldn't be up and running and working on a AAA game for future release? Like really?

To me, that's a far bigger mismanagement of budgets, resources and time to be perfectly honest with you and if in three years, Spencer isn't capable of accomplishing that, maybe it's not the decisions he's made that's the problem, maybe "he's" the problem?

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Legends greenlighted during the Mattrick era? As I recall, Fable 4 was shot down under an entirely different CEO and a different head of Xbox. Sure, it would have been better to have Fable 4 by now and get PG to make a different game.

Well, if you're tired of reading it then perhaps you'd prefer to not open and read threads discussing Microsoft's current and future projects? Speaking only for myself, I do not read topics that I am tired of reading.

I don't know who green lit Legends but you would think that Spencer would have cancelled that game immediately and told Lionhead to work on an actual Fable game but considering that Spencer has a hard on for timed exclusive deals which benefits only the publisher getting the big fat check and games as a service which is where Legends comes into play. You have a studio who's made a good action RPG franchise and instead of saying, "screw Legends, start working on Fable 4", he just goes with what was already being done? How is this NOT mismanagement on HIS part?

I'm not tired of reading what people post here. I'm just tired of Spencer himself saying the same shit over and over but never delivers. Has nothing to do with any poster here unless one of you is Spencer himself.
 

Chris.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,920
Phil has done a lot of good and so far I think he's doing a good job. He backs up most of the things he says even if it takes for it to come to fruition

You could argue he chose the wrong things to focus on first and that's your opinion but I can see why he chose platform then hardware them games because the Xbox brand was seriously toxic back then and viewed as weak, games didn't really come into the discussion until the studio closures really. And they will also take the longest to fix and then it's an on going long term project after that.

The Xbox has had 4 problems this gen.

Platform which Phil has fixed, it is not perfect but it's in a much better place

brand which Phil has also completely turned around. It's still not perfect but his work here is remarkable given the state of the brand when he took over

Xbox being weak and he fixed the power issue with the X. I think he went above and beyond here in terms of how the X handles old games too

Games/first party situation. Definitely his weak spot so far that has been escalated further with all the studio closures and cancellations. We haven't seen a whole lot done here but if the rumours are to be believed it's heading in a good direction.

So far he's 3/4 and despite the fourth taking some heavy beatings it looks like he will be 4/4 when we look back in a couple of years.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,116
Amalthea
Phil Spencer has been the head of Xbox for nearly 4 years, not a month.
How long do you think it took Playground Games to be created and release their first game?
Playground Games was founded in 2010 and Horizon 1 was released in 2012. But that game was also developed in collaboration with Turn 10 Studios.

Not every game IP can be worked like that. And there's not too many details in FH1 dev cycle that I'm aware of either, but I don't think that's a fair comparison.
 

daniel77733

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,639
Phil has done a lot of good and so far I think he's doing a good job. He backs up most of the things he says even if it takes for it to come to fruition

You could argue he chose the wrong things to focus on first and that's your opinion but I can see why he chose platform then hardware them games because the Xbox brand was seriously toxic back then and viewed as weak, games didn't really come into the discussion until the studio closures really. And they will also take the longest to fix and then it's an on going long term project after that.

The Xbox has had 4 problems this gen.

Platform which Phil has fixed, it is not perfect but it's in a much better place

brand which Phil has also completely turned around. It's still not perfect but his work here is remarkable given the state of the brand when he took over

Xbox being weak and he fixed the power issue with the X. I think he went above and beyond here in terms of how the X handles old games too

Games/first party situation. Definitely his weak spot so far that has been escalated further with all the studio closures and cancellations. We haven't seen a whole lot done here but if the rumours are to be believed it's heading in a good direction.

So far he's 3/4 and despite the fourth taking some heavy beatings it looks like he will be 4/4 when we look back in a couple of years.

I agree with your post but the problem that still exists is STILL the MAIN PROBLEM. The Xbox One Slim is an excellent console and you can see what was done on it via Forza Horizon 3 and Gears of War 4. Xbox One X is obviously much more powerful but did they really need it? My answer is the same as PS4 Pro - NO.

Spending millions and millions on X for what will most likely be a three year console seems like a total and complete waste of money and resources. Funny thing is that the first exclusive game that will most likely be the one to show off the power of the X is the same franchise that showed off the S - Forza Horizon.

Phil Spencer has been the head of Xbox for nearly 4 years, not a month.
How long do you think it took Playground Games to be created and release their first game?

Actually, I just looked that up. Founded in 2010. FH released on October 23, 2012. Basically, less than three years. This is why Playground Games is arguably Microsoft's best exclusive partner.
 

daniel77733

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,639
Playground Games was founded in 2010 and Horizon 1 was released in 2012. But that game was also developed in collaboration with Turn 10 Studios.

Not every game IP can be worked like that. And there's not too many details in FH1 dev cycle that I'm aware of either, but I don't think that's a fair comparison.

True but they do release an excellent game on a two year cycle and after FH3, are looked at as being superior to Turn 10 and FM franchise. That's damn impressive.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,116
Amalthea
True but they do release an excellent game on a two year cycle and after FH3, are looked at as being superior to Turn 10 and FM franchise. That's damn impressive.
I agree! Playground Game's has done excellent work and in such a short amount of time, too. I just think there's more to those years than just the short turn around time from concepting to release.

I firmly believe every company, every developer, would love to launch a game as soon as possible. But it's not always possible.
 

daniel77733

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,639
True.

I'm not expecting Spencer to form new studios and release AAA games in a few years but what I am expecting is for him to at the very least get a few new studios up and running so they're set for next gen and beyond. How can anyone ever expect Xbox to grow outside of the top three if Spencer never opens up new studios for the future? That's my problem. Just for a studio, hire a good staff and go from there. It's been done a billion times before and will continue to be done. Just wish Spencer would do this instead of trying to get "quick fixes" which more times than not fix nothing and are just seen as a waste of money.
 

Doffen

Member
Oct 28, 2017
887
Playground Games was founded in 2010 and Horizon 1 was released in 2012. But that game was also developed in collaboration with Turn 10 Studios.

Not every game IP can be worked like that. And there's not too many details in FH1 dev cycle that I'm aware of either, but I don't think that's a fair comparison.

I'm not looking for a new AAA title today. I'm looking for the internal studios that's supposed to create AAA titles in the future.
 

MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,759
There is a thread on reddit with the Coalition and story lab production? Was this posted here?
 
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but from what I remember when Phil took over, exclusives weren't really the biggest problem Xbox was facing.

Remember the headlines? They were mostly about the power advantage PS4 had, or how shitty the mandatory Kinect was.

He had a specific budget to work with, and chose to take steps to improve the Xbox brand and cut out all the cancer.

I fully agree with everything Phil has done thus far, and I am confident things are only going to get better.
 

wapplew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,163
True.

I'm not expecting Spencer to form new studios and release AAA games in a few years but what I am expecting is for him to at the very least get a few new studios up and running so they're set for next gen and beyond. How can anyone ever expect Xbox to grow outside of the top three if Spencer never opens up new studios for the future? That's my problem. Just for a studio, hire a good staff and go from there. It's been done a billion times before and will continue to be done. Just wish Spencer would do this instead of trying to get "quick fixes" which more times than not fix nothing and are just seen as a waste of money.

VP Spencer only got promoted for 3 months and 2018 just started.
He's already committed buy/create new studio, it's coming.
 

Sydle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,276
True.

I'm not expecting Spencer to form new studios and release AAA games in a few years but what I am expecting is for him to at the very least get a few new studios up and running so they're set for next gen and beyond. How can anyone ever expect Xbox to grow outside of the top three if Spencer never opens up new studios for the future? That's my problem. Just for a studio, hire a good staff and go from there. It's been done a billion times before and will continue to be done. Just wish Spencer would do this instead of trying to get "quick fixes" which more times than not fix nothing and are just seen as a waste of money.

One thing to keep in mind is that we heard from insiders that the Xbox division's budget was not increased in 2017 and I think 2016 was even fairly tight, so it's not like the Xbox division was sitting on a lot of capital the last two years that they could have used to buy a new studio or build one from the ground up. Any deals they had for games released in 2016-2018 were locked in long ago, so something would have had to give if he couldn't get the additional budget to build or buy studios.

As for shutting down Lionhead, they probably didn't have it in the budget to carry Fable Legend's development long enough to finish it without compromising budget for other projects or other teams. Same goes for Scalebound. Both Scalebound and Fable Legends missed their target release dates and appeared to have troubled development. Perhaps he should have canceled them earlier, but I'm guessing he was hoping they'd come together seeing as how they were already announced. I think he even commented that in the future he'd like to recognize the red flags earlier and cancel things when it made sense, which is probably why he's suggested he'll wait a little longer before announcing games in the future.

Even if he had the budget to buy studios the last two years I'm not sure who they should have bought besides Playground. Back when he first became Head of Xbox he said that his approach to studio acquisition is when there is a good partnership in place and it makes sense for both parties, so he's probably looking for a partner that can deliver critical and commercial successes on time. He's got a new gig with Gobo/Electric Studio, they may have doubled down their relationship with Playground, and I think they still have a multi-game partnership with Undead Labs. On top of that, it looks like 343, The Coalition, and Rare are all still growing.
 
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