Mike Pondsmith's (Cyberpunk 2020 creator) response to some Cyberpunk 2077 criticism (accuracy to his orig. work, race representation) [see staff post]

Budi · Jun 16, 2019

Spring-Loaded said:
Yeah, did they ever say somewhere that your character can opt NOT to mock these other characters? Is dialogue based on your "idol" you choose during character creation?

You don't choose an idol, just background between Corpo, Nomad and Street Kid. Though I'm not quite sure about the "mocking" part until I see it myself, the tone of it and the relationship between the characters. I don't think using dialect that's not natural to you necessarily means any malice towards the person using it naturally. But could very well be, that V does mean to fuck around with the person.

Spring-Loaded said:
Are the subtitles universally phonetic? Honest question. Can't recall if the old footage had subtitles and whether they had other similar affectations.

To my recollection the subtitles in Witcher 3 were similar.

Edit: Yup, quick example sentence I found " Intit plain? Master Casimir's sat upon his roof. Claims he'll blow hisself to bits!"

Crossing Eden · Jun 16, 2019

Truly Gargantuan said:
Huh? I don't get this point. Are you saying shouldn't subtitles shouldn't be phonetically spelled?

If so I disagree. It's an accurate representation of the language and people of similar dialects type phonetically themselves.

Do Haitians type out they as "dey" and them as "dem." As this whole situation is giving me knuckles "do u know the way" or "Barret's original localization is just a Mr. T homage" vibes when it comes to how people are saying "well it's ok because x"

MagnusWasRight said:
I ask this openly and honestly. Is there some idea that there are not people who talk this way? There are people of all ethnicities who do.

Makes me wonder how the subtitles will be displayed for these npcs:

Truly Gargantuan · Jun 16, 2019

Spring-Loaded said:
Are subtitles universally phonetic? Honest question. Can't recall if the old footage had subtitles and whether they had other similar affectations.

Hmm..i believe the old footage had subtitles but they weren't phonetic. The characters we've seen so far have had accents typical in America.
Afaik, this phonetic spelling isnt out of the ordinary for this dialect, but I could be wrong.
Again, say what you will about mocking the accent. It's fair criticism imo. But I don't think the phonetic subtitles should be a sticking point.

Heckler456 · Jun 16, 2019

Spring-Loaded said:
Are the subtitles universally phonetic? Honest question. Can't recall if the old footage had subtitles and whether they had other similar affectations.

Regardless of how it's done in the game, this would be the best path to take. Feels like the most useful and less "othering."

Skimming through the gameplay video, I'm seeing a lot of contractions being used if they're spoken, like 'em for "them" or lemme for "let me", stuff like that.

Thorrgal · Jun 16, 2019

As a player of the original pen and paper RPG back in the 90's I'm happy they're doing Pondsmith justice and that he's happy with the result so far

Uthred · Jun 16, 2019

I think a lot of the disconnect in peoples expectations are that they were, understandably, ignorant of the source material. C2077 might be a really solid implementation and representation of C2020. But honestly that's probably not going to be a redeeming feature for most people because C2020 is fairly shallow and boring in terms of its place in the cyberpunk genre. It is explicitly and by design a fairly shallow mish-mash of the most obvious bits of the genre, the chrome (no pun intended) basically. That's not really a fault because that's usually what makes a good setting for a TRPG. While you might have immersive monsters like Ars Magica or Degenesis most popular tabletop settings are fairly generic or kitchen-sinky e.g. Forgotten Realms or in this case Cyberpunk 2020.

Most "cyberpunk" TRPG's and CRPG's don't really adopt anything more than the aesthetic and the barest trappings of the literary genre they originate from. The tabletop game certainly doesn't really do much to examine many of the themes people might expect from neo-Cyberpunk stuff, it's treatment of transhumanism and cybernetics is at best regressive for example. C2020 never really had anything to say, it presented you with a world with lots of dials you could tweak for your own personal game. The question of whether C2077 is an accurate representation of the source material is honestly orthogonal to the quality of the entertainment it might provide, if its good or if its terrible will have very little to do with how accurately it portrays the setting.

Spring-Loaded · Jun 16, 2019

Budi said:
You don't choose an idol, just background between Corpo, Nomad and Street Kid. Though I'm not quite sure about the "mocking" part until I see it myself, the tone of it and the relationship between the characters. I don't think using dialect that's not natural to you necessarily means any malice towards the person using it naturally.

To my recollection the subtitles in Witcher 3 were similar.

I recall last year's presentation letting you choose Johnny Silverhand as an inspiration during character creation, but I may be misremembering. I still wonder if those alignments affect how the player talks with others.

And the delivery came across as mockery—maybe not outright hostile, but still caught my attention. I would opt not to say that if given the choice.

Doc Kelso · Jun 16, 2019

Crossing Eden said:
Do Haitians type out they as "dey" and them as "dem." As this whole situation is giving me knuckles "do u know the way" or "Barret's original localization is just a Mr. T homage" vibes when it comes to how people are saying "well it's ok because x"

Makes me wonder how the subtitles will be displayed for these npcs:

Are you saying it's inherently racist to phonetically subtitle spoken dialogue?

Neilg · Jun 16, 2019

Sign My Guestbook! said:
Here's my question: how do Haitians write these words? Do they actually write "dey" phonetically as in Scots-English? Or do they just write "they"?

Depends on the context - I worked with a guy who would 'put on his white voice' in emails etc but text phonetically. He was second generation and likened it to speaking two languages.
There's a lot of social pressures at play which is why translating their dialogue to Queens English instead is actually super racist.
The movie sorry to bother you touched upon this recently, it was really good.

Deleted member 18360 · Jun 16, 2019

plié said:
Are you aware that this based on a board game made in the 80's? LMAO

Yeah, lol, I just think looking back to the 80s for a vision of the future trivializes pretty much everything having to do with why cyberpunk as a genre was originally striking or bold. We're taking a genre about imagining plausible horrors of the future, and using it as a basis for nostalgia or escapism to avoid having to actually imagine our own future. I just don't see how it's not ironic or self-defeating on a fairly basic level.

plié · Jun 16, 2019

Crossing Eden said:
Do Haitians type out they as "dey" and them as "dem." As this whole situation is giving me knuckles "do u know the way" or "Barret's original localization is just a Mr. T homage" vibes when it comes to how people are saying "well it's ok because x"

Makes me wonder how the subtitles will be displayed for these npcs:

That's not racist. They are subtitles for spoken words for different accents.

I would be more offended if they had different subs versus the spoken line.

7thFloor · Jun 16, 2019

Doc Kelso said:
Are you saying it's inherently racist to phonetically subtitle spoken dialogue?

I think they're saying that it's reinforcing a stereotype, however it's not as if these are the only black characters in the game, Pacifica is supposed to be impoverished, although in this case English is their second language so that may not even matter.

Budi · Jun 16, 2019

Spring-Loaded said:
I recall last year's presentation letting you choose Johnny Silverhand as an inspiration during character creation, but I may be misremembering. I still wonder if those alignments affect how the player talks with others.

And the delivery came across as mockery—maybe not outright hostile, but still caught my attention. I would opt not to say that if given the choice.

Yeah last year demo had you able to do that, but they removed the idols (sorry I couldn't find a reliable source for you quickly checking). Maybe it has something to do with casting Keanu as Silverhand, he would kinda overshadow the other choices. But the background between Nomad, Corpo and Street Kid will affect the dialogue in some manner, they've confirmed that. No idea if it will affect this little bit of dialogue.

eebster · Jun 16, 2019

plié said:
That's not racist. They are subtitles for spoken words for different accents.

I would be more offended if they had different subs versus the spoken line.

And this is why they can't do right. Do it one way, some consider it racist, do it the other way and it's racist to others.

Sign My Guestbook! · Jun 16, 2019

Doc Kelso said:
Are you saying it's inherently racist to phonetically subtitle spoken dialogue?

Know you're not talking to me, but I'll chime in: maybe if it's used to make them seem less deserving of human rights.

Neilg said:
Depends on the context - I worked with a guy who would 'put on his white voice' in emails etc but text phonetically. He was second generation and likened it to speaking two languages.
There's a lot of social pressures at play which is why translating their dialogue to Queens English instead is actually super racist.
The movie sorry to bother you touched upon this recently, it was really good.

So if it's distinct enough to qualify as a different language, then it's okay to be spelled "dey" right? If the difference is baked into their culture, and they acknowledge it, and there's a second, more "Common English" (common to who?) they use with other people...

boskee · Jun 16, 2019

Funny how literally no one is ever concerned about the portrayal of Slavic people (especially Russians) in games, literally everything about it, down to mocking Borat-like accents. Don't even let me get started on the representation of Muslims.

CDPR became a punching bag for the recently-enlightened, who will analyse every minute detail to prove they're the baddies. I'm not buying the "history of bad representation" argument either. Rockstar has a long record of making actually transphobic, culturally insensitive games with poor representation, but it's hardly analysed or talked about.

Neilg · Jun 16, 2019

eebster said:
And this is why they can't do right. Do it one way it's racist to some people, do it the other way it's racist to others.

No it's only racist one of those ways. A white guy thinking it might be racist isn't important.

Sign My Guestbook! · Jun 16, 2019

boskee said:
Funny how literally no one is ever concerned about the portrayal of Slavic people (especially Russians) in games, literally everything about it, down to mocking Borat-like accents. Don't even let me get started on the representation of Muslims.

I mean, this shit should be wrong too. Everyone deserves a fair shake.

Rover · Jun 16, 2019

Uthred said:
I think a lot of the disconnect in peoples expectations are that they were, understandably, ignorant of the source material. C2077 might be a really solid implementation and representation of C2020. But honestly that's probably not going to be a redeeming feature for most people because C2020 is fairly shallow and boring in terms of its place in the cyberpunk genre. It is explicitly and by design a fairly shallow mish-mash of the most obvious bits of the genre, the chrome (no pun intended) basically. That's not really a fault because that's usually what makes a good setting for a TRPG. While you might have immersive monsters like Ars Magica or Degenesis most popular tabletop settings are fairly generic or kitchen-sinky e.g. Forgotten Realms or in this case Cyberpunk 2020.

Most "cyberpunk" TRPG's and CRPG's don't really adopt anything more than the aesthetic and the barest trappings of the literary genre they originate from. The tabletop game certainly doesn't really do much to examine many of the themes people might expect from neo-Cyberpunk stuff, it's treatment of transhumanism and cybernetics is at best regressive for example. C2020 never really had anything to say, it presented you with a world with lots of dials you could tweak for your own personal game. The question of whether C2077 is an accurate representation of the source material is honestly orthogonal to the quality of the entertainment it might provide, if its good or if its terrible will have very little to do with how accurately it portrays the setting.

Good post.

The cyberpunk genre's grasp on cultural issues is tenuous at best, even more so when it's like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles version of it.

plié · Jun 16, 2019

eebster said:
And this is why they can't do right. Do it one way it's racist to some people, do it the other way it's racist to others.

You just defined outrage culture in 2019

There are no good options.

Woodbeam · Jun 16, 2019

Uthred said:
I think a lot of the disconnect in peoples expectations are that they were, understandably, ignorant of the source material. C2077 might be a really solid implementation and representation of C2020. But honestly that's probably not going to be a redeeming feature for most people because C2020 is fairly shallow and boring in terms of its place in the cyberpunk genre. It is explicitly and by design a fairly shallow mish-mash of the most obvious bits of the genre, the chrome (no pun intended) basically. That's not really a fault because that's usually what makes a good setting for a TRPG. While you might have immersive monsters like Ars Magica or Degenesis most popular tabletop settings are fairly generic or kitchen-sinky e.g. Forgotten Realms or in this case Cyberpunk 2020.

Most "cyberpunk" TRPG's and CRPG's don't really adopt anything more than the aesthetic and the barest trappings of the literary genre they originate from. The tabletop game certainly doesn't really do much to examine many of the themes people might expect from neo-Cyberpunk stuff, it's treatment of transhumanism and cybernetics is at best regressive for example. C2020 never really had anything to say, it presented you with a world with lots of dials you could tweak for your own personal game. The question of whether C2077 is an accurate representation of the source material is honestly orthogonal to the quality of the entertainment it might provide, if its good or if its terrible will have very little to do with how accurately it portrays the setting.

This is an insightful post. Thank you!

DevilMayGuy · Jun 16, 2019

Doc Kelso said:
Are you saying it's inherently racist to phonetically subtitle spoken dialogue?

Yeah this distinction is fucking with my head. I read fiction all the time where they phonetically spell out thick accents, from Georgia and holler drawls, to Scottish, Irish , Creole, French, and other accents. Many of those characters are white. Claiming inherent racism because they phonetically spell out thick creole accents in the subtitles is a weird track to take, and seems like trying to needlessly ascribe negative intentions to a dev with an admittedly poor track record on social media. Some deaf people say that they appreciate the extra flavor that these types of subtitles/spellings provide, as it gives them a way to "hear" the accents of those characters in a way that would be completely lost without that spelling.

tuxfool · Jun 16, 2019

Doc Kelso said:
Are you saying it's inherently racist to phonetically subtitle spoken dialogue?

If phonetic typing were done for the purpose of mocking someone or a group of people then it would be xenophobia. Races cross cultural boundaries, and specific linguistic affectations are more inherent of the region you originate from, rather than your race.

Though phonetic language has been used plenty in books where formalized language takes a back seat to conveying accents or dialect. How else would one represent it, how would one do this for the hearing impaired?

Crossing Eden · Jun 16, 2019

Doc Kelso said:
Are you saying it's inherently racist to phonetically subtitle spoken dialogue?

It absolutely can be yes. We're talking about a genre where video games featuring it have already had representation issues.

Neilg said:
No it's only racist one of those ways. A white guy thinking it might be racist isn't important.

Hi, i'm black btw but thanks for the accusation. 👍

Deleted member 18360 · Jun 16, 2019

Uthred said:
I think a lot of the disconnect in peoples expectations are that they were, understandably, ignorant of the source material. C2077 might be a really solid implementation and representation of C2020. But honestly that's probably not going to be a redeeming feature for most people because C2020 is fairly shallow and boring in terms of its place in the cyberpunk genre. It is explicitly and by design a fairly shallow mish-mash of the most obvious bits of the genre, the chrome (no pun intended) basically. That's not really a fault because that's usually what makes a good setting for a TRPG. While you might have immersive monsters like Ars Magica or Degenesis most popular tabletop settings are fairly generic or kitchen-sinky e.g. Forgotten Realms or in this case Cyberpunk 2020.

Most "cyberpunk" TRPG's and CRPG's don't really adopt anything more than the aesthetic and the barest trappings of the literary genre they originate from. The tabletop game certainly doesn't really do much to examine many of the themes people might expect from neo-Cyberpunk stuff, it's treatment of transhumanism and cybernetics is at best regressive for example. C2020 never really had anything to say, it presented you with a world with lots of dials you could tweak for your own personal game. The question of whether C2077 is an accurate representation of the source material is honestly orthogonal to the quality of the entertainment it might provide, if its good or if its terrible will have very little to do with how accurately it portrays the setting.

Thank you, this is the kind of thing that I was trying to say.

Trice · Jun 16, 2019

plié said:
That's not racist. They are subtitles for spoken words for different accents.

I would be more offended if they had different subs versus the spoken line.

They're even having the player install a translator augment in order to understand Creole. Creole is still spoken but you only get subtitles for it as opposed to switching it out with English or something. That shows respect.

I think they're trying to do their best. The 2020 tabletop, the Cyberpunk universe and everything within it - the oppression, bigotry, hatred, crime etc is a minefield to navigate and execute, as we are already witnessing. They will not succeed in pleasing everyone, but I respect them for giving it a go. I don't believe they have any malicious agenda.

boskee · Jun 16, 2019

Sign My Guestbook! said:
I mean, this shit should be wrong too. Everyone deserves a fair shake.

It should, but it isn't. And it's not only in games, mind you, but mainstream American media. I can't imagine John Oliver doing racist Asian impressions, but he's perfectly happy to talk with "the Russian accent". That's one of the reasons I liked that Chernobyl show - it didn't use "the Russian accent".

Doc Kelso · Jun 16, 2019

HoLoGrApHiC_principle said:
I think they're saying that it's reinforcing a stereotype, however it's not as if these are the only black characters in the game, Pacifica is supposed to be impoverished, although in this case English is their second language so that may not even matter.

Sign My Guestbook! said:
Know you're not talking to me, but I'll chime in: maybe if it's used to make them seem less deserving of human rights.

So if it's distinct enough to qualify as a different language, then it's okay to be spelled "dey" right? If the difference is baked into their culture, and they acknowledge it, and there's a second, more "Common English" (common to who?) they use with other people...

Crossing Eden said:
It absolutely can be yes. We're talking about a video game genre which has already had this issue.

Hi, i'm black btw but thanks for the accusation. 👍

Mmm. Alright, understood. Thanks. I don't like the idea of getting rid of accents in the written medium, as that's effectively erasing the existence of different dialects. I can see how it would be upsetting in this specific context, but I think that speaks to the greater context moreso than the idea of subtitling phonetically.

Pyccko · Jun 16, 2019

So in regards to the phonetic subtitles, isnt it just so deaf folks (the main people the subtitles are actually for) can experience these accents in a way as well? Did everyone just forget about them in here or what?

Neilg · Jun 16, 2019

Crossing Eden said:
Hi, i'm black btw but thanks for the accusation. 👍

I think given the 'racism is open to interpretation' sentiment of your post it was a fair assumption to make.
Unless you don't share that belief and were just pointing out how the discussion is going.

catvonpee · Jun 16, 2019

Crossing Eden said:

Looks like I could very easily be an NPC in the game.

Sign My Guestbook! · Jun 16, 2019

boskee said:
It should, but it isn't. And it's not only in games, mind you, but mainstream American media. I can't imagine John Oliver doing racist Asian impressions, but he's perfectly happy to talk with "the Russian accent". That's one of the reasons I liked that Chernobyl show - it didn't use "the Russian accent".

I'd say "couldn't there have been actual Russians who could speak English in the show," but if I'm going in that direction, might as well have everyone speaking Russian and just subtitle it, and have Russian dialect coaches train all the actors how to speak like people from Chernobyl (or the surrounding area.)

DevilMayGuy · Jun 16, 2019

Pyccko said:
So in regards to the phonetic subtitles, isnt it just so deaf folks (the main people the subtitles are actually for) can experience these accents in a way as well? Did everyone just forget about them in here or what?

Accessibility only matters if it means easy mode in a From game

Sign My Guestbook! said:
I'd say "couldn't there have been actual Russians who could speak English in the show," but if I'm going in that direction, might as well have everyone speaking Russian and just subtitle it, and have Russian dialect coaches train all the actors how to speak like people from Chernobyl (or the surrounding area.)

And then you remember that it's a British/American production meant to make money by catering to British/American people who aren't about to read subtitles and don't particularly care how accurate the Russian is through employing actors they recognize.

Crossing Eden · Jun 16, 2019

Doc Kelso said:
Mmm. Alright, understood. Thanks. I don't like the idea of getting rid of accents in the written medium, as that's effectively erasing the existence of different dialects.

It wouldn't be getting rid of accents. There's a world of difference between that and not stereotyping.

Neilg said:
I think given the 'racism is open to interpretation' sentiment of your post it was a fair assumption to make.

No it's not. And yes these things are open to interpretation, especially when one invokes a "see they're consulting and the people involved have no issue with it thus no one should."

plié · Jun 16, 2019

Pyccko said:
So in regards to the phonetic subtitles, isnt it just so deaf folks (the main people the subtitles are actually for) can experience these accents in a way as well? Did everyone just forget about them in here or what?

Yes they did.

This whole thing is not racist in any way. Unless you want it to be wich seems to be the case here.

Spring-Loaded · Jun 16, 2019

Pyccko said:
So in regards to the phonetic subtitles, isnt it just so deaf folks (the main people the subtitles are actually for) can experience these accents in a way as well? Did everyone just forget about them in here or what?

It certainly could be the reason why. Whether those types of affectations are evenly distributed across all dialects/accents in the game's subtitles is yet to be seen though, and considering the development company's past missteps, it's being met with scrutiny here.

Games get stuff like this so wrong so often, and when you point it out, you get stuff like in the above post saying you want there to be racism/sexism/transphobia/etc. in games just to complain about it, as if it's in any way fun to have your existence be degraded and insulted in media. People are worried it might be happening in a game they're interested in, so they bring it up—not sure why the mat gets labeled as outrage by the game's defenders.

Doc Kelso · Jun 16, 2019

Crossing Eden said:
It wouldn't be getting rid of accents. There's a world of difference between that and not stereotyping.

No it's not. And yes these things are open to interpretation, especially when one invokes a "see they're consulting and the people involved have no issue with it thus no one should."

If you remove the phonetic subtitling the accent no longer exists for the hearing impaired. Subtitles are an accessibility tool first and foremost.

Sailent · Jun 16, 2019

Just gonna say that we will have to wait a lil bit until 2020, until then, we have a few glimpses of what they have in mind for this project in particular.

And yes, CDPR fucked up in the past, a lot, but that doesn't exclude them from trying to be better. I was a racist, sexist piece of shit until 2015, and that's not really that far away.

So I'm not hyped because hype usually blinds you, but I'm not totally pesimistic about it.

Time will tell.

Budi · Jun 16, 2019

NoMoreTrolls said:
Accessibility only matters if it means easy mode in a From game

Lol, I support both. But it's true, most people are overlooking a minority group in this discussion altogether. Funny thing to happen in a discussion surrounding minorities.

Crossing Eden · Jun 16, 2019

Pyccko said:
So in regards to the phonetic subtitles, isnt it just so deaf folks (the main people the subtitles are actually for) can experience these accents in a way as well? Did everyone just forget about them in here or what?

If we're going down that route then shouldn't we take issue with the fact that Jackie's accent is subtitled in a way that gives zero indication that he has a very heavy accent aside from the occasional Spanish words? 🤔

7thFloor · Jun 16, 2019

Pyccko said:
So in regards to the phonetic subtitles, isnt it just so deaf folks (the main people the subtitles are actually for) can experience these accents in a way as well? Did everyone just forget about them in here or what?

Agreed.

Meaningful discourse is pretty limited by the fact that we haven't actually seen the demo for ourselves, this is all conjecture.

rras1994 · Jun 16, 2019

Sailent said:
Just gonna say that we will have to wait a lil bit until 2020, until then, we have a few glimpses of what they have in mind for this project in particular.

And yes, CDPR fucked up in the past, a lot, but that doesn't exclude them from trying to be better. I was a racist, sexist piece of shit until 2015, and that's not really that far away.

So I'm not hyped because hype usually blinds you, but I'm not totally pesimistic about it.

Time will tell.

I would reccommned this article for why the things they are showing now is important and why we can't just wait til the game comes out to point out the issues with how they are presenting the game:https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...rketing-contributes-to-transphobia-right-now/
It's also probably better to point out the issues now so CDPR actually has a chance to know and do something about them.

Chance_Boudreaux · Jun 16, 2019

Anyone consider the fact that they're not making V a white meat babyface?

I can't recall all of the background options but you can choose to be from the streets or come from money, right? Street kids would have grown up fighting for survival and ribbing each other/everyone, and corporate kids would have been born with a silver spoon and looking down on the street kids. Both of those options could/would result in V mocking accents.

Budi · Jun 16, 2019

Crossing Eden said:
If we're going down that route then shouldn't we take issue with the fact that Jackie's accent is subtitled in a way that gives zero indication that he has a very heavy accent? 🤔

Well not really, the subtitles include the "spanglish". Which was another divisive topic in itself last year. And as said, they did the same in Witcher 3 for the subtitles as they are seemingly doing here.

Lunar15 · Jun 16, 2019

All I'm going to say on this is point out that the subtitles in question are not actually standard subtitles for accessibility. The main character is literally accessing a translation via a program which is then displayed within their own HUD. My understanding is that they are not translating Haitian Creole-accented English, they're translating actual, spoken Hatian Creole into a pidgin-like English for the main character to understand. Everyone will see these subtitles, regardless of whether or not they have subtitles turned on.

Again, from *my* understanding, this isn't an irregular way to translate Hatian Creole into english. However, I am absolutely not the right person to make that call. Just wanted to provide proper context for what the subtitles were. I'm not even sure if it makes a difference to the argument, but I saw some people saying that these were just accented english to english subtitles, when really they're Haitian Creole to English subtitles. At least, again, that's what I inferred from previews.

To me, personally, the more alarming thing was the main character "mocking" the translation, but not having actually heard it or seen it for myself it's a little hard to make the call. From what I heard, they make a quip like "who are dey", which kinda comes off a little alienating. Again, without having seen the preview, it's hard to say.

Karateka · Jun 16, 2019

umop 3pisdn said:
I'm willing to be proven wrong on representation, but I think one of the most disappointing things is how the setting of this game is just straight up retrofuturism. Yes, our current social condition is one where no one is really actively imagining the future anymore ("the future is cancelled"), but just reviving the 90s cyberpunk aesthetic, essentially as another case of the 30 year reminiscence cycle, really gets across to me how impoverished our current attempts are at conceiving any kind of positive, speculative future. Even if they get everything right regarding representation, I still think the world will feel unsatisfying or displaced in time, because it's really easy to read the whole resurgence of classic cyberpunk as a vain attempt by capitalism to find something exciting or provocative in what is now basically an exsanguinated corpse.

The gane is called cyberpunk... Cyberpubk is specifically about a begative, overly capitalist and corporate future...
Do you want it to be like star trek or something?

Deleted member 18360 · Jun 16, 2019

Karateka said:
The gane is called cyberpunk... Cyberpubk is specifically about a begative, overly capitalist and corporate future...
Do you want it to be like star trek or something?

By positive future I meant making some kind of affirmative statement regarding the future (as in 'yes, that's it'), not that we'd actually like or value the imagined future being positively affirmed. A negative statement ('not that') seems to be all we're able to say about the future these days, my example being when I look at 2077 and say 'no way the year 2077 is going to look anything like that', lol.

The problem is not that the futures we imagine now are 'bad', because yeah, cyberpunk has always been bleak. The difference now is that we're not even trying to actively imagine the future anymore, instead we're looking to literally outmoded futures to fill the gap that active speculation about the future used to fill.

Sailent · Jun 16, 2019

rras1994 said:
I would reccommned this article for why the things they are showing now is important and why we can't just wait til the game comes out to point out the issues with how they are presenting the game:https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...rketing-contributes-to-transphobia-right-now/
It's also probably better to point out the issues now so CDPR actually has a chance to know and do something about them.

Thanks for the article, I totally agree, specially with this bit:

"A lot of responses to this criticism have asked that people wait for the game to come out before passing judgement. If you want me to hold off on condemning the floaty feel of an alpha build's weapons then, sure, I can do that (though most previews would notably not let such an issue go without comment). But if you want me to reserve judgement on an image that is contributing to the oppression of trans folks already, then no, sorry, that's something that needs addressing sooner. This image is out there now, without challenge, without context, in its worst form. It contributes to a climate in which trans folks are already under attack, and it will continue to do so for months and months before the game finally releases."

Let's hope they only need to change artworks or give them some background in-game to let know the player that the banner is transphobic and really fucked up.

tuxfool · Jun 16, 2019

umop 3pisdn said:
By positive future I meant making some kind of affirmative statement regarding the future (as in 'yes, that's it'), not that we'd actually like or value the imagined future being positively affirmed. A negative statement ('not that') seems to be all we're able to say about the future these days, my example being when I look at 2077 and say 'no way the year 2077 is going to look anything like that', lol.

The problem is not that the futures we imagine now are 'bad', because yeah, cyberpunk has always been bleak. The difference now is that we're not even trying to actively imagine the future anymore, instead we're looking to literally outmoded futures to fill the gap that active speculation about the future used to fill.

The future in that game follows a thread that started in the 80's.

It isn't a future projected from our understanding now, but one that started in the original series. For example there is no concept of an internet as we see it now, in that world http was never invented, as such networks are projected forward based on the supremacy of the fiefdoms like Usenet.

Deleted member 2229 · Jun 16, 2019

umop 3pisdn said:
I'm willing to be proven wrong on representation, but I think one of the most disappointing things is how the setting of this game is just straight up retrofuturism. Yes, our current social condition is one where no one is really actively imagining the future anymore ("the future is cancelled"), but just reviving the 90s cyberpunk aesthetic, essentially as another case of the 30 year reminiscence cycle, really gets across to me how impoverished our current attempts are at conceiving any kind of positive, speculative future. Even if they get everything right regarding representation, I still think the world will feel unsatisfying or displaced in time, because it's really easy to read the whole resurgence of classic cyberpunk as a vain attempt by capitalism to find something exciting or provocative in what is now basically an exsanguinated corpse.

The game is an adaptation of a pre defined source material. This is the equivalent of complaining that the Lord of the Rings movies are too close to classical high fantasy rather than something more contemporary like Game of Thrones. Just because it has cyberpunk in the title doesnt mean it has to adapt the whole genre.

Mike Pondsmith's (Cyberpunk 2020 creator) response to some Cyberpunk 2077 criticism (accuracy to his orig. work, race representation) [see staff post]

Still doesn't have a tag :'(

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