Mike Pondsmith's (Cyberpunk 2020 creator) response to some Cyberpunk 2077 criticism (accuracy to his orig. work, race representation) [see staff post]

[Deleted member 18360]

Um, guys, I get that it's an adaptation of an existing property, what I'm saying is that I find that decision baffling, because it's really not very creative, or resonant beyond nostalgia, and therefore seems like it actually undermines the substantial themes of the genre, by making its vision of the future another tepid commodity. Regardless of whether or not it's an ideal adaptation of cyberpunk 2020, it still seems really confused on a conceptual level, to the point that I have difficulty recognizing what's supposed to be exciting about it.

 

[Edgar]

Um, guys, I get that it's an adaptation of an existing property, what I'm saying is that I find that decision baffling because it's not creative and seems like it actually undermines the substantial themes of the genre by making its vision of the future another tepid commodity.

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i mean witcher 3 is your usual dark fantasy in most basic terms, but it also tackles racism, war atrocities , alcoholism, abusive relationships ect. Also the themes of the genre are not rigid , it will always depend on approach and execution. Theres really no hard defined rules what cyberpunk should tackle

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I would reccommned this article for why the things they are showing now is important and why we can't just wait til the game comes out to point out the issues with how they are presenting the game:https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...rketing-contributes-to-transphobia-right-now/
It's also probably better to point out the issues now so CDPR actually has a chance to know and do something about them.

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Thanks for sharing this—I missed this when it was posted.

 

[Deleted member 18360]

i mean witcher 3 is your usual dark fantasy in most basic terms, but it also tackles racism, war atrocities , alcoholism, abusive relationships ect. Also the themes of the genre are not rigid , it will always depend on approach and execution. Theres really no hard defined rules what cyberpunk should tackle

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We expect fantasy to be anchored in the past (or our imagination of the past), which is perhaps why fantasy is more popular now, because we've cancelled the future and so looking back on the past is all we really know how to do.

My point is that I barely care to see how it executes its vision, because its vision seems to be the complete inversion of what made cyberpunk timely or thought provoking.

 

[Flipyap]

The game is an adaptation of a pre defined source material. This is the equivalent of complaining that the Lord of the Rings movies are too close to classical high fantasy rather than something more contemporary like Game of Thrones. Just because it has cyberpunk in the title doesnt mean it has to adapt the whole genre.

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This game is an adaptation that's 50 years removed from its source material and yet the culture of its world hasn't moved an inch. The decision to freeze the setting in time was not motivated in any way by its source material.
They could have done anything with it. We could (should) have seen enormous societal changes take place in that time (and that's what Pondsmith originally envisioned until fan backlash made him backtrack on the whole idea of CPv3.0), instead they chose to make Cyberpunk 2020 2.

 

[Deleted member 2229]

This game is an adaptation that's 50 years removed from its source material and yet the culture of its world hasn't moved an inch. The decision to freeze the setting in time was not motivated in any way by its source material.
They could have done anything with it. We could (should) have seen enormous societal changes take place in that time (and that's what Pondsmith originally envisioned until fan backlash made him backtrack on the whole idea of CPv3.0), instead they chose to make Cyberpunk 2020 2.

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I don't really agree with this. Especially when if you pay attention to his interviews you can tell that "how has the world changed post 2020" is something he's actively exploring in cyberpunk red to bridge the gap between 2020 and 2077. You're basing what you're saying off of next to nothing. The game isnt out yet and neither is any of the supplementary material. So perhaps wait til any of that is out before proclaiming how much things haven't changed.

Um, guys, I get that it's an adaptation of an existing property, what I'm saying is that I find that decision baffling, because it's really not very creative, or resonant beyond nostalgia, and therefore seems like it actually undermines the substantial themes of the genre, by making its vision of the future another tepid commodity. Regardless of whether or not it's an ideal adaptation of cyberpunk 2020, it still seems really confused on a conceptual level, to the point that I have difficulty recognizing what's supposed to be exciting about it.

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The only thing that seems confused is that you expect it to be "cyberpunk the genre:the videogame" rather than just accepting it for what it is. Its fine if you don't like it but this isn't really a criticism, it's "i'm not getting what I want" which is seemingly only based on the fact that it has "cyberpunk" in the title.


Its a stylistic vision of the future based out of the 80s. That's what's appealing. The game knows what it wants to be. Its that you don't like what it wants to be.

 

[Trice]

This game is an adaptation that's 50 years removed from its source material and yet the culture of its world hasn't moved an inch. The decision to freeze the setting in time was not motivated in any way by its source material.
They could have done anything with it. We could (should) have seen enormous societal changes take place in that time (and that's what Pondsmith originally envisioned until fan backlash made him backtrack on the whole idea of CPv3.0), instead they chose to make Cyberpunk 2020 2.

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AFAIK they're using the core ideas and lore from 2020 and building upon the Red universe, not the 2020. I don't believe there is no evolution at all.

 

[Woodbeam]

I don't really agree with this. Especially when if you pay attention to his interviews you can tell that "how has the world changed post 2020" is something he's actively exploring in cyberpunk red to bridge the gap between 2020 and 2077. You're basing what you're saying off of next to nothing. The game isnt out yet and neither is any of the supplementary material. So perhaps wait til any of that is out before proclaiming how much things haven't changed.



The only thing that seems confused is that you expect it to be "cyberpunk the genre:the videogame" rather than just accepting it for what it is. Its fine if you don't like it but this isn't really a criticism, it's "i'm not getting what I want" which is seemingly only based on the fact that it has "cyberpunk" in the title.


Its a stylistic vision of the future based out of the 80s. That's what's appealing. The game knows what it wants to be. Its that you don't like what it wants to be.

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I'm surprised this is coming from you. You should realize that you're supporting a narrative others are using to shut down concerns about legitimate issues of representation in the game. You're mischaracterizing umop 3pisdn's points, which are much more nuanced than you're portraying them. A good look at the finer details of those points is this post (#56). Please be more considerate.

 

[Keldroc]

If you remove the phonetic subtitling the accent no longer exists for the hearing impaired. Subtitles are an accessibility tool first and foremost.

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Also subtitling dialect by stripping out the dialect is uncomfortably close to implying "Here's what they REALLY meant to say" as though they speak their own language wrong. Subtitles should reflect what's said, they shouldn't be interpreting dialect into the Queen's English.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

nvm - please delete

 

[Deleted member 2229]

I'm surprised this is coming from you. You should realize that you're supporting a narrative others are using to shut down concerns about legitimate issues of representation in the game. You're mischaracterizing umop 3pisdn's points, which are much more nuanced than you're portraying them. A good look at the finer details of those points is this post (#56). Please be more considerate.

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This is kind of a shitty way to come at me for expressing a difference in opinion. I don't think complaining that Mike Pondsmith's Cyberpunk isn't enough like other works in the genre is the same argument as being concerned about the representation of minorities and If you think that's what I'm supporting than I would argue that you're mischaracterizing the points I'm trying to make.
I'm not telling anybody that the game is beyond criticism, especially when it comes to representation.

But that is not what's being said here:

Um, guys, I get that it's an adaptation of an existing property, what I'm saying is that I find that decision baffling, because it's really not very creative, or resonant beyond nostalgia, and therefore seems like it actually undermines the substantial themes of the genre, by making its vision of the future another tepid commodity. Regardless of whether or not it's an ideal adaptation of cyberpunk 2020, it still seems really confused on a conceptual level, to the point that I have difficulty recognizing what's supposed to be exciting about it.

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I'm not telling umop 3pisdn not to criticize the game. But I find the idea that 2077 is somehow creatively bankrupt and taking things in the wrong direction because it doesn't play it close enough to more well recognized works to be a complete non starter. Being concerned that the game doesn't explore trans and racial issues with tact is one thing. Being upset because it's not what you expect out of something in this genre stylistically is something else entirely. Especially when you say that it's a vision based on nostalgia, despite the fact that said vision is either of that time or predating the vision you're accusing it of being nostalgic of.

I find the stylistic direction of Pondsmith's Cyberpunk refreshing. As much as I love Ghost in the Shell and Blade Runner 2049, they exist in a sea of immitators that are consistently riffing off each other. That's not to say Cyberpunk doesn't also take inspiration from other works, but I find the fact that it's very much rooted in a different age to be the appealing part and it seems pretty clear that so do many others. I don't see how setting itself apart is somehow more creatively bankrupt than playing it close to the crowd simply because it takes inspiration from the time it was created in.

And in regards to this:

I think a lot of the disconnect in peoples expectations are that they were, understandably, ignorant of the source material. C2077 might be a really solid implementation and representation of C2020. But honestly that's probably not going to be a redeeming feature for most people because C2020 is fairly shallow and boring in terms of its place in the cyberpunk genre. It is explicitly and by design a fairly shallow mish-mash of the most obvious bits of the genre, the chrome (no pun intended) basically. That's not really a fault because that's usually what makes a good setting for a TRPG. While you might have immersive monsters like Ars Magica or Degenesis most popular tabletop settings are fairly generic or kitchen-sinky e.g. Forgotten Realms or in this case Cyberpunk 2020.

Most "cyberpunk" TRPG's and CRPG's don't really adopt anything more than the aesthetic and the barest trappings of the literary genre they originate from. The tabletop game certainly doesn't really do much to examine many of the themes people might expect from neo-Cyberpunk stuff, it's treatment of transhumanism and cybernetics is at best regressive for example. C2020 never really had anything to say, it presented you with a world with lots of dials you could tweak for your own personal game. The question of whether C2077 is an accurate representation of the source material is honestly orthogonal to the quality of the entertainment it might provide, if its good or if its terrible will have very little to do with how accurately it portrays the setting.

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If you're unhappy with the direction then fine, nobody is saying you have to like it. But I don't really think complaining that X isn't close enough to Y is a genuine criticism. It's an opinion based on personal taste.

As for whether or not it does a good job at exploring the themes represented, then by all means raise concerns. But maybe wait for the game to actually release and universe to be updated before attempting to write it off. Because at best its you're making a quarter baked attempt using a 30 year old game and snippets of info and that doesn't make for a compelling analysis.

 

[cgatto]

I'm surprised this is coming from you. You should realize that you're supporting a narrative others are using to shut down concerns about legitimate issues of representation in the game. You're mischaracterizing umop 3pisdn's points, which are much more nuanced than you're portraying them. A good look at the finer details of those points is this post (#56). Please be more considerate.

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That's a weird way to come at someone for having a different opinion.

 

[7thFloor]

That's a weird way to come at someone for having a different opinion.

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Instead of trying to inquire about the intent of the comment it's straight to condemnation...

 

[tuxfool]

Instead of trying to inquire about the intent of the comment it's straight to condemnation...

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I mean it is pretty obvious that the content is entirely separate from what the accuser is stating. Any reasonable person would see that.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Instead of trying to inquire about the intent of the comment it's straight to condemnation...

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He's policing another poster's tone and content. That's something we should leave to the moderators. And it has already derailed the thread.

I deleted my post on the topic and instead reported it for the moderator team to decide, precisely to avoid the metacomentary.

But inevitably, here we are, thread derailed.

 

[Lunar15]

To get more back on track, a really good example of how using some of the more "controversial" aspects of it's in-game universe material as part of marketing can potentially backfire and hurt groups of people, look no further than the recent "Girlfriend Reviews" video, featuring the Cyberpunk 2077 booth. There's a bit of a gag played in the video where the now infamous poster of the seemingly transgender person is shown, with the camera scrolling down to the groin and cutting to a "that's a penis" bit. I like those videos, but that runs a little close to "oh haha, this girl has a penis!" jokes that are tired at this point. Probably innocent in creation, but it's a good example of what happens when you have that kind of stuff in your game and then present and remove it from context. I've talked with and seen several articles from transgender people who don't want to "wait" to find out if the context is good since they already feel like it's damaging in the current context.

My only desire is that people don't take things like "oh, the creator said it's fine" or "oh one person said it was fine" and run with that as a reason to de-legitimatize complaints. Sure, in context, some people may find they *like* the message that's being conveyed. But in the meantime, I'm happy that some journalists have brought these concerns up with CDPR, because it's providing us at least some of the context that we needed. CDPR certainly hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt, given the way they handled past issues. Good on journalists for bringing this stuff up, regardless of how it turns out to be. People need to understand that a lot of the people asking these questions and raising these concerns are, or were, excited for this game. A lot of people aren't trying to "tear it down" or make you "not want to buy it". They want to see CDPR do better, and if CDPR can prove they're up to the task, then this is a net benefit. You're never going to make everyone completely satisfied, but this is why we have these conversations. To learn and do better.

 

[Deleted member 18360]

This is kind of a shitty way to come at me for expressing a difference in opinion. I don't think complaining that Mike Pondsmith's Cyberpunk isn't enough like other works in the genre is the same argument as being concerned about the representation of minorities and If you think that's what I'm supporting than I would argue that you're mischaracterizing the points I'm trying to make.
I'm not telling anybody that the game is beyond criticism, especially when it comes to representation.

But that is not what's being said here:


I'm not telling umop 3pisdn not to criticize the game. But I find the idea that 2077 is somehow creatively bankrupt and taking things in the wrong direction because it doesn't play it close enough to more well recognized works to be a complete non starter. Being concerned that the game doesn't explore trans and racial issues with tact is one thing. Being upset because it's not what you expect out of something in this genre stylistically is something else entirely. Especially when you say that it's a vision based on nostalgia, despite the fact that said vision is either of that time or predating the vision you're accusing it of being nostalgic of.

I find the stylistic direction of Pondsmith's Cyberpunk refreshing. As much as I love Ghost in the Shell and Blade Runner 2049, they exist in a sea of immitators that are consistently riffing off each other. That's not to say Cyberpunk doesn't also take inspiration from other works, but I find the fact that it's very much rooted in a different age to be the appealing part and it seems pretty clear that so do many others. I don't see how setting itself apart is somehow more creatively bankrupt than playing it close to the crowd simply because it takes inspiration from the time it was created in.

And in regards to this:

If you're unhappy with the direction then fine, nobody is saying you have to like it. But I don't really think complaining that X isn't close enough to Y is a genuine criticism. It's an opinion based on personal taste.

As for whether or not it does a good job at exploring the themes represented, then by all means raise concerns. But maybe wait for the game to actually release and universe to be updated before attempting to write it off. Because at best its you're making a quarter baked attempt using a 30 year old game and snippets of info and that doesn't make for a compelling analysis.

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A part of it is taste, but more than that I think we should all be concerned by the fact that we seem no longer willing or able to conceive of new visions of the future.

C2077 isn't somehow responsible for this, but it does seem, thus far, to be a pretty clear example of it.

 

[Budi]

To get more back on track, a really good example of how using some of the more "controversial" aspects of it's in-game universe material as part of marketing can potentially backfire and hurt groups of people, look no further than the recent "Girlfriend Reviews" video, featuring the Cyberpunk 2077 booth. There's a bit of a gag played in the video where the now infamous poster of the seemingly transgender person is shown, with the camera scrolling down to the groin and cutting to a "that's a penis" bit. I like those videos, but that runs a little close to "oh haha, this girl has a penis!" jokes that are tired at this point. Probably innocent in creation, but it's a good example of what happens when you have that kind of stuff in your game and then present and remove it from context. I've talked with and seen several articles from transgender people who don't want to "wait" to find out if the context is good since they already feel like it's damaging in the current context.

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Yeah just recently watched the same video, wasn't sure what to think of it. But to be fair, they would have most likely played the same gag if it was cis male in the picture with a huge erection. But it's true that people can probably use the ad/image to mock transgender people or have a laugh at their expense. It's bit tricky, people can also take influence from 12 Years a Slave and start singing the racist song which Paul Dano sings in the film, to mock and harass black people in their own life. Doesn't matter that the film obviously itself presents racism and slavery as a bad thing, people can use parts of it for the opposite. Or they can take the entire film and the horrors it portrays as a fantasy for themselves, they can enjoy what they're seeing instead than being horrified and repulsed with it. In games Mafia 3 portrayed racism without any sugarcoating, slurs included. Obviously I understand how uncomfortable that can make people and I also understand that people want to skip the game because of it. But I thought the game stood out and was better for it, because racism of the era it portrayed in real world was quite like that (haven't changed much tbh). Of course Cyberpunk is the future and fictional timeline to begin with, but if people want it to actually tackle such heavy topics head on it will most likely have something that makes some people uncomfortable. Also the bigots who would mock transgender folk with the picture in CP77 are already outraged about the news of the character creator and gender options, calling CDPR SJW:s.

But yeah I do agree that feedback especially on representation issues should be given constantly even when the game ain't out yet, which is different than condemning the game and the devs entirely. And that feedback can/should also be a conversation among us who are just waiting for the game, but also between us and the devs. Like with the ad they did provide their reasoning for it, directly from the designer herself. Or Mike Pondsmith chiming in on race representation.

 

[Deleted member 2229]

A part of it is taste, but more than that I think we should all be concerned by the fact that we seem no longer willing or able to conceive of new visions of the future.

C2077 isn't somehow responsible for this, but it does seem, thus far, to be a pretty clear example of it.

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Well again, it's a vision of the future that came into existence 30 years ago. It's not really "new". If you're looking for that there are plenty of recent examples. Interstellar, Oblivion, Ex Machina, Looper, etc as some of the more recognizable and original examples on film, and there's no shortage of works of futuristic sci-fi in the sphere of videogames, such as: Va11halla, Prey, Deus Ex, Halo, Mass Effect and hundreds more. Then you have the post apocalyptic, futuristic sci fi craze of the early 2010's with stuff like Hunger Games, Divergent, Maze Runner in the young adult sphere and I'm sure, plenty of others in the more conventional and less trendy sphere of literature.

I don't really know how you can come to that conclusion unless you're just not really paying attention. But I suppose I get it, despite it's abundance, a lot of the clean but grimey, industrial futuristic sci-fi starts to blend together. Which is why I find 2077's use of a retrofuture aesthetic to be refreshing.

 

[Deleted member 18360]

Well again, it's a vision of the future that came into existence 30 years ago. It's not really "new". If you're looking for that there are plenty of recent examples. Interstellar, Oblivion, Ex Machina, Looper, etc as some of the more recognizable and original examples on film, and there's no shortage of works of futuristic sci-fi in the sphere of videogames, such as: Va11halla, Prey, Deus Ex, Halo, Mass Effect and hundreds more. Then you have the post apocalyptic, futuristic sci fi craze of the early 2010's with stuff like Hunger Games, Divergent, Maze Runner in the young adult sphere and I'm sure, plenty of others in the more conventional and less trendy sphere of literature.

I don't really know how you can come to that conclusion unless you're just not really paying attention. But I suppose I get it, despite it's abundance, a lot of the clean but grimey, industrial futuristic sci-fi starts to blend together. Which is why I find 2077's use of a retrofuture aesthetic to be refreshing.

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I'm referring to sci fi as less a stock fictional context, or set of style signifiers, and more as a means of actively trying to anticipate through fiction the problems or concerns of our society. The last time speculative fiction was so concerned with those kinds of problems, at least as a movement having any kind of identity or focus, was arguably with the genesis of the genre in question, cyberpunk.

But then if cyberpunk still represents that function in our society (it doesn't, and I'd argue that nothing does), then why do the concerns of its time (the negation of humanity, corporate takeover of society, ecological collapse, etc), now seem so quaint? These problems still exist, in fact many of these promises have already come to fruition, and yet we can't readily identify our present with the future envisioned by classic cyberpunk literature, because that prior anticipation of the future had as its impetus a kind of proactive caution or a legitimate concern for the future. But now that has since been abandoned, in favor of the more fatalistic comfort offered by a false future or retro future that can't actually threaten us with any legitimate uncertainty or recognizable crisis, and so the future becomes something other than the future, it becomes a future of hollow threat, a mere act of recollection that we feel we can come to grips with, while the real future would seem intent to thwart us, if we could even bring ourselves to look at it.

 

[just a slowpoke]

Pondsmith's endorsement of Cyberpunk 2077 is encouraging. If he believes the broader context found within the game is true to his vision then that's great. That doesn't change that what we've seen of 2077 so far has been problematic, that the poster (removed from the context of the full game) is transphobic (I've posted in detail about my thoughts about the issues with the poster in its respective thread). Pondmith's opinion on the full game doesn't delegitimize criticism of what Cyberpunk 2077 has shown so far. If the final product is better, that doesn't make CDPR's advertisement so far necessarily okay.

The official response so far to criticism of the game just adds to the idea that CD Projekt Red shouldn't have to say, "The final game will show the truth." CDPR should be able to go, "What we've shown so far is proof of what players will find in the full game."

TBH I'd be willing to believe that this is a marketing fuckup. That marketing has gone too far to keep things clean and inoffensive, so instead of getting an idea of how Cyberpunk 2077 is shining a mirror on the bullshit of the world we're just smelling the bullshit. If it wasn't for that poster, that is. That poster is just so fucking bad, as was CDPR's response.

Anyway, back on subject, good for Pondsmith speaking out. I trust the dude; his resume speaks for itself. Pondsmith gets it. I hope his work shines through.

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if the game truly does dive deep into the potential of cyberpunk i'll be impressed, but like you i'm not expecting more than a tour of the expected tropes

the marketing has been a disaster, beyond even the poorly conceived representation

i think they'll play it safe and bore everyone with a rehash of the same "am i still human if i have cool robot legs" story, but if it truly goes to some original places i'll be glad to have been wrong

 

[Deleted member 2229]

I'm referring to sci fi as less a stock fictional context, or set of style signifiers, and more as a means of actively trying to anticipate through fiction the problems or concerns of our society. The last time speculative fiction was so concerned with those kinds of problems, at least as a movement having any kind of identity or focus, was arguably with the genesis of the genre in question, cyberpunk.

But then if cyberpunk still represents that function in our society (it doesn't, and I'd argue that nothing does), then why do the concerns of its time (the negation of humanity, corporate takeover of society, ecological collapse, etc), now seem so quaint? These problems still exist, in fact many of these promises have already come to fruition, and yet we can't readily identify our present with the future envisioned by classic cyberpunk literature, because that prior anticipation of the future had as its impetus a kind of proactive caution or a legitimate concern for the future. But now that has since been abandoned, in favor of the more fatalistic comfort offered by a false future or retro future that can't actually threaten us with any legitimate uncertainty or recognizable crisis, and so the future becomes something other than the future, it becomes a future of hollow threat, a mere act of recollection that we feel we can come to grips with, while the real future would seem intent to thwart us, if we could even bring ourselves to look at it.

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I see and understand where you're coming from, but I don't completely agree. I can agree that speculative fiction is no longer at the forefront of science fiction and that modern Cyberpunk as a whole (or even most modern fiction) isn't really about cautionary tales. Though the conclusions you're coming to (calling it quaint for example) isn't really something I agree with. I find it especially compelling because its now real. I also wouldn't say that we can't identify with past visions of cyberpunk and moreso its a matter of that technology hasn't advanced as fast or as in totality as a lot of the genre fiction has predicted.

To bring this more in line with the topic at hand, If you listen to Pondsmith speak (which anyone that's genuinely interested in the game and its world should do) it's pretty clear that he's aware of a lot of the concerns people bring up and is acutely aware of what the genre is beyond his own works in addition to understanding it on a technical level. He's pretty clearly intent on trying to tell a compelling story and create a world that lives up to the genre's potential.

and to paraphrase some of the things he's said:
the crux of Pondsmith's vision of cyberpunk is based on the personal aspects of living in a cyberpunk world and how you can use technology to your advantage to gain power, get even.
Cyberpunk RED (Upcoming pen and paper game) is about a society moving beyond the elite keeping their boot on the neck of the common people post events of 2020, and 2077 is about when that boot is put back on but with new branding.

While those themes aren't exactly visions of the future I think they're potent enough in todays society (especially with everything that's going on) to be engaging and of value. Because the more things change, the more they stay the same, and unfortunately a lot of things from 30 years ago haven't changed and who's to say that in 58 years we won't be confronted with a lot of similar societal issues we already face today, with the added bonus of dealing with the dangers that ingraining ourselves with technology still presents (and continues to become more of a reality every day).

Edit: I guess to add to this I should also mention that a lot of speculative fiction of prior ages was born out of the issues that the people at those times faced and were then extrapolated outward. The fact that we are now facing a lot of issues of the age of cyberpunk and even before says less about a lack of creativity and moreso society's stubbornness to actually address the issues being cautioned by creatives.

and as an added bonus for anyone interested, here are some videos of Pondsmith talking about Cyberpunk both in terms of his own games and as a fiction:

 

[John198X]

As someone that uses subtitles on anything and everything (when available), I'm of the opinion that if a character or characters speak this distinctly different from other characters in the game, it should be reflected in the subtitles.

Also, I'd think having the subtitle script be translated to American English would be in danger of coming off as comical and be easier to interpret as having a laugh at the millions of people that speak that language.

 

[Woodbeam]

Now that's more like it! This is what an actual dialogue about the themes of the game and their broader context looks like, and it should put to bed the idea that we need to wait for the final game to be in our hands to discuss potential issues, or that criticism is tantamount to condemnation.

Should take out that YongYea video though, he sucks lots.

 

[Deleted member 2229]

Should take out that YongYea video though, he sucks lots.

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He's not great, but the video itself is fine. Its mostly Pondsmith talking and has some of the quotes I mentioned in respect to red and 2077 and I think that's important.

 

[Lyon]

Highly doubt they do it for the sake of accuracy considering it's subtitles being added for the player, who the character proceeds to make fun of on more than one occasion. Which'll be doubly weird if we choose to play as a POC.

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Accuracy can help hearing impaired persons get more enveloped in the world. So a line can be toed where you translate what's not obvious and leave other things with their original creole/patois spelling bcuz their translated counterpart would be obvious to most; based on context or similar spelling. This would obviously vary for each localisation and would require more work.

Furthermore Haiti, Jamaica (I'm Jamaican) other places that speak creole, patois and other dialects are not solely made up of POC. Almost everyone will use it, some persons more than others.

So, you can make fun of an accent without being racist (in this case we don't know the true intention). But that won't stop some persons with a connection or none to the language from taking it is an affront towards their nation, race, language or whatever. If they are offended, then they're free to voice as such and choose to not support the game.

Here's my question: how do Haitians write these words? Do they actually write "dey" phonetically as in Scots-English? Or do they just write "they"?

I always try to go by this standard when I can. Like if someone has a name that is pronounced five different ways by culture, I'll defer to how the person themself says it.

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I assume u mean when a Haitian is typing in English.
Some do some don't. Depending on the relationship, tone of convo, etc one may choose to use straight English.

I've had Haitian co-workers that will msg me with a mix of creole/patois bcuz they know I'll understand and not feel they're being unprofessional. However they may message clients or the boss in "proper" English.


As an aside.
I'll give an example of how comments in this thread may be discussed in patois (I won't try to act like my Haitian friends but y'all get the idea).

Some ppl jus a beat dem lip bout tings dem nuh understand. Game nuh even come out yet and dem a cuss bout how di Haitian dem chat. Di one time dem a get a likkle fwd and it come in like seh true dem a carry belly fi cdpr everything dem do a problem. Mek wi see how di game stay first and mek up wi owna mine and stop kill up wi self before time.

On the other hand. Some may say:
Yo, mi nuh put nutten pass dem enuh a bere fuckery dem gwan wid pon twitta. Dem will style u and gwan like seh ere ting nice jus fi tek u money.

 

[Deleted member 18360]

I see and understand where you're coming from, but I don't completely agree. I can agree that speculative fiction is no longer at the forefront of science fiction and that modern Cyberpunk as a whole (or even most modern fiction) isn't really about cautionary tales. Though the conclusions you're coming to (calling it quaint for example) isn't really something I agree with. I find it especially compelling because its now real. I also wouldn't say that we can't identify with past visions of cyberpunk and moreso its a matter of that technology hasn't advanced as fast or as in totality as a lot of the genre fiction has predicted.

To bring this more in line with the topic at hand, If you listen to Pondsmith speak (which anyone that's genuinely interested in the game and its world should do) it's pretty clear that he's aware of a lot of the concerns people bring up and is acutely aware of what the genre is beyond his own works in addition to understanding it on a technical level. He's pretty clearly intent on trying to tell a compelling story and create a world that lives up to the genre's potential.

and to paraphrase some of the things he's said:
the crux of Pondsmith's vision of cyberpunk is based on the personal aspects of living in a cyberpunk world and how you can use technology to your advantage to gain power, get even.
Cyberpunk RED (Upcoming pen and paper game) is about a society moving beyond the elite keeping their boot on the neck of the common people post events of 2020, and 2077 is about when that boot is put back on but with new branding.

While those themes aren't exactly visions of the future I think they're potent enough in todays society (especially with everything that's going on) to be engaging and of value. Because the more things change, the more they stay the same, and unfortunately a lot of things from 30 years ago haven't changed and who's to say that in 58 years we won't be confronted with a lot of similar societal issues we already face today, with the added bonus of dealing with the dangers that ingraining ourselves with technology still presents (and continues to become more of a reality every day).

and as an added bonus for anyone interested, here are some videos of Pondsmith talking about Cyberpunk both in terms of his own games and as a fiction:

Click to shrink...

Thanks for this, I was being a bit bullheaded, and some part of that is just aesthetic taste, as you correctly identified, lol. But I do think that taste and interpretation tend to become somewhat intermixed, I suppose in nothing else but tone. Though I don't really disagree with your interpretation of the quaint thing, either. But I do think one reason why we find a lot of the cyberpunk staples unsatisfying is that they now seem naive in a way that we are not. The example I have in mind is that the people in cyberpunk futures seem to be somehow better able to characterize their circumstances than we are, despite the deluge of products for consumption and diversion intended to produce a cycle of frustration and consumption, you still always find passionate revolutionaries around the corner or in the next dive bar. And that draws a stark contrast with our own times, where despite our skylines and entertainment being much more modest, somehow the enmeshment that corporate interests have with government are even better concealed from our eyes, making it seem almost harder to organize significant political will now, which I think we'd probably now recognize as a kind of oversight. While my first worry upon seeing the general style and flavor is that they might conjure a spirit of the times that is well and truly dead (and thereby mute,) you're absolutely right that I am too quick to assume that to be the case.

 

[Deleted member 21709]

Mike Pondsmith seems like a badass. I hope they put him in the game somewhere as an easter egg.

 

[Deleted member 2229]

Thanks for this, I was being a bit bullheaded, and some part of that is just aesthetic taste, as you correctly identified, lol. But I do think that taste and interpretation tend to become somewhat intermixed, I suppose in nothing else but tone. Though I don't really disagree with your interpretation of the quaint thing, either. But I do think one reason why we find a lot of the cyberpunk staples unsatisfying is that they now seem naive in a way that we are not. The example I have in mind is that the people in cyberpunk futures seem to be somehow better able to characterize their circumstances than we are, despite the deluge of products for consumption and diversion intended to produce a cycle of frustration and consumption, you still always find passionate revolutionaries around the corner or in the next dive bar. And that draws a stark contrast with our own times, where despite our skylines and entertainment being much more modest, somehow the enmeshment that corporate interests have with government are even better concealed from our eyes, making it seem almost harder to organize significant political will now, which I think we'd probably now recognize as a kind of oversight. While my first worry upon seeing the general style and flavor is that they might conjure a spirit of the times that is well and truly dead (and thereby mute,) you're absolutely right that I am too quick to assume that to be the case.

Click to shrink...

While I'm no loremaster, funilly enough I think you might end up being right at home in Pondsmith's Cyberpunk if these are the things you're complaints with the genre fiction as its something that Pondsmith touches on both explicitly and implicitly either through his talks or his works. Consumerism and over-consumption are massive parts of it, as is the idea that nobody is really a hero or chosen one and that everyone around you has the same capabilities you do. Even the revolutionaries that do exist (which are few and far between, the now dead Silverhand being one of them) don't have things work out as well as they might expect. I wouldn't expect 2077 to end with the player saving the world or anything of the sort or causing some sort of mass revolution and is probably more likely to be lucky enough to get away with their life and some new tech. So at the very least, you might find it to be worth delving into a bit and giving it a chance if these are things you find to be of interest.

 

[Woodbeam]

He's not great, but the video itself is fine. Its mostly Pondsmith talking and has some of the quotes I mentioned in respect to red and 2077 and I think that's important.

Click to shrink...

He's worse than "not great," I'm afraid. I don't really have receipts on hand unfortunately, but he pals around with alt-right figures and peddles typical faux-anticorporate "angry gamer" narratives in his main work. I actually enjoyed some of his ludicrously long Kojima trailer dissections up until his "coverage" of the ArenaNet firings last year, where I saw his true colors for the first time. Seriously, he's not worth promoting in any way.