Miyamoto warns gaming industry to not be too greedy, talks about importance of subscription services

[Atheerios]

Interesting article about Shigeru Miyamoto's talk at the Computer Entertainment Developers Conference (CEDEC).

About free to play vs games with fixed prices:

"We're lucky to have such a giant market, so our thinking is, if we can deliver games at reasonable prices to as many people as possible, we will see big profits".

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"I can't say that our fixed-cost model has really been a success," the usually candid Miyamoto said. "But we're going to continue pushing it forward until it becomes entrenched. That way everyone can develop games in a comfortable environment. By focusing on bringing games to the widest range of people possible, we can continue boosting our mobile game business."

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About subscription-style services:

Miyamoto also said game developers should heed lessons from the music industry, which is still struggling to recover after consumers learned to consume music for free through MP3 file sharing, as well as YouTube and streaming services. He said subscription-style services should play a bigger role in games, but said the key is to develop a culture of paying for good software.

"It's necessary for developers to learn to get along with" subscription-style services, Miyamoto said. "When seeking a partner for this, it's important to find someone who understands the value of your software. Then customers will feel the value in your apps and software and develop a habit of paying money for them."

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From https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/...tor-warns-gaming-industry-don-t-be-too-greedy

 

[Dusk Golem]

He's right on both accounts at a glance, and I'll read further. Game devaluation is very real and risks being a serious problem in the future, especially for how expensive games are to make. If people get too comfortable with free and cheaper games, it's going to be disastrous for the industry in the long-term. It's not consumers faults as much as multiple companies, but then not all companies either.

Right now honestly the "best" (for lack of a better term) game monetization model hasn't really been figured out, fixed pricing has some issues, as does subscription models. There's going to be more experimentation no doubt in the future, but the problem is some experimentation risks long-term adverse effects.

 

[Phendrift]

I agree with him.

People complain about Nintendo's pricing all they want, but there's a certain comfort in buying Zelda day one for $60 knowing that I don't have to wait for the GOTY edition launching at $30 only a year later.

Or that Smash Ultimate isn't a $30 game with season passes adding in vets that were in previous games.

He's right about music too, feels very devalued now. I still buy albums and people are shocked that I don't just stream. It's sad.

 

[Cenauru]

Too true. Free to play almost always means microtransactions are pushed on you because a stable income cannot always be guaranteed, and since the whales are almost always the only people that actually keep a game afloat means they're catered to and microtransactions only get worse to make whales spend more. It's a vicious cycle that only a few F2P games have managed to avoid.

 

[Mandos]

Definitely sage words, i mean look how the phone ap market has skewed value, and Steam has started sliding the same direction

 

[Edigar]

Did he say anything about charging U$60,00 for Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze? And why doesn't 1-2 Switch and ARMS cost like U$30,00 by now?

 

[Dark Cloud]

Miyamoto the legend. I love this guy and it's great to here him say stuff about subscriptions.

 

[Deleted member 274]

I lost it at "Deliver games at reasonable prices"

Something something Latin America eShop prices

 

[Meelow]

Did he say anything about charging U$60,00 for Donkey Kong Tropical Freezer? And why doesn't 1 2 Switch and ARMS cost like U$30,00 by now?

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You do know that Miyamoto doesn't control everything at Nintendo right?

 

[Dark Cloud]

Did he say anything about charging U$60,00 for Donkey Kong Tropical Freezer? And why doesn't 1 2 Switch and ARMS cost like U$30,00 by now?

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Miyamoto is just the Creative Fellow at Nintendo. He doesn't make all their business decisions. He's working on Super Nintendo World at Universal Studios and the Super Mario movie

 

[clickKunst]

I was at an Adobe conference the other week where the big takeaway message for business was to focus more on the experience your organisation delivers instead of products and services. Well, what Adobe means by experience - I don't really know. They use the term all over their website without ever offering a clear definition.

However, there was one very telling moment when the leader of the Asia-Pacific region of the organisation was talking about what it meant to focus your organisation's operations around experiences and he said 'it's about adopting a subscription service'. I thought that was fairly interesting because it was the first time anyone from that company actually locked the concept of delivering experiences to something tangible and executable - a business model!

It also seemed largely unsustainable for anything that's B2C. You just need to look at Netflix's friction between purchasing distribution rights and producing original content. That's a company that has sacrificed its USP for more reality TV programming and underwhelming dramas.

 

[Broken Joystick]

Did he say anything about charging U$60,00 for Donkey Kong Tropical Freezer? And why doesn't 1 2 Switch and ARMS cost like U$30,00 by now?

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lmao

 

[Kcannon]

Did he say anything about charging U$60,00 for Donkey Kong Tropical Freezer? And why doesn't 1 2 Switch and ARMS cost like U$30,00 by now?

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You mean the games that are close to selling 2 Million?

 

[Dekuman]

He's right. Cheap pot shots at pricing of individual products doesn't detract from his broader point that the race of 0.99 /free on the appstore has more or less birthed the predatory live services model which metastasized as part of the addons service people now have to live with for games they paid full price for.

If you read between the lines, he's very firmly of the view you still need to pay for games, and games should have a reasonable bottom floor pricing model that lets devs recoup costs comfortably without having to resort to the greedy measure he is warning against.

 

[Dark Cloud]

You mean the games that are close to selling 2 Million?

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lmao gottem

 

[Poimandres]

I agree with him.

People complain about Nintendo's pricing all they want, but there's a certain comfort in buying Zelda day one for $60 knowing that I don't have to wait for the GOTY edition launching at $30 only a year later.

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Eh, it might be comforting if you buy day 1 but it's pretty bloody annoying if you are buying a game literally years after release. I won't pay full price for an old game, full stop. I've employed this approach for decades across many consoles and PC... it's only Nintendo that digs their heels in. And again, only sometimes, not necessarily with the most appropriate software choices seemingly. It's sort of bizarre honestly.

Publishers (including Nintendo when they feel like it) have been offering sales/permanent discounts on older titles for decades now and the industry hasn't imploded.

I do agree with his general points about streaming services though.

 

[Camonna Tong]

Did he say anything about charging U$60,00 for Donkey Kong Tropical Freezer? And why doesn't 1 2 Switch and ARMS cost like U$30,00 by now?

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Obviously he doesn't control everything, as others said, but as much as I love Nintendo, their digital and physical prices years after release are ridiculous. Fire Emblem Awakening is the same price as it released 6 years ago.

Anyways, I completely agree with what he said. If there's anything Nintendo isn't greedy about and is definitely the leading ones at it, it would be quality assurance.

 

[Kcannon]

Publishers (including Nintendo when they feel like it) have been offering sales/permanent discounts on older titles for decades now and the industry hasn't imploded.

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Because microtransactions, lootboxes and other predatory businesses are keeping it afloat.

As well as other "less worse" practices like LEs and DLCs.

 

[Dekuman]

Eh, it might be comforting if you buy day 1 but it's pretty bloody annoying if you are buying a game literally years after release. I won't pay full price for an old game, full stop. I've employed this approach for decades across many consoles and PC... it's only Nintendo that digs their heels in. And again, only sometimes, not necessarily with the most appropriate software choices seemingly. It's sort of bizarre honestly.

Publishers (including Nintendo when they feel like it) have been offering sales/permanent discounts on older titles for decades now and the industry hasn't imploded.

I do agree with his general points about streaming services though.

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I remember when StarCraft battlechest stayed at the same price for years. I don't think that's a problem. Your expectation of not wanting to pay full price for old games is probably because most games halve in price after 6 months to gin up sales and peddle DLCs and live services where the real money is made. That's not really Nintendo's problem.

 

[Skyebaron]

I respect anything Miyamoto says. Then again the Nintendo tax and full price ports are real.

 

[Jimrpg]

I agree with him.

People complain about Nintendo's pricing all they want, but there's a certain comfort in buying Zelda day one for $60 knowing that I don't have to wait for the GOTY edition launching at $30 only a year later.

Or that Smash Ultimate isn't a $30 game with season passes adding in vets that were in previous games.

He's right about music too, feels very devalued now. I still buy albums and people are shocked that I don't just stream. It's sad.

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Full price comfort? Sorry but that doesn't justify having full priced games for years and years.

Mario 3D Land only got a Nintendo Selects after 5 years. I've moved on already.

I'm just talking reasonable discounts here, and 'fair' prices, that's different for everybody, but I'm not going to buy it if it feels overpriced. Hence my Nintendo library is far less than my Sony library.

 

[Poimandres]

Because microtransactions, lootboxes and other predatory businesses are keeping it afloat.

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I'd prefer cosmetic paid DLC over an eternally full priced title. No question about it, as long as the DLC is purely cosmetic.

I remember when StarCraft battlechest stayed at the same price for years. I don't think that's a problem. Your expectation of not wanting to pay full price for old games is probably because most games halve in price after 6 months to gin up sales and peddle DLCs and live services where the real money is made. That's not really Nintendo's problem.

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Blizzard are almost as bad with pricing, but they do have sales and I will only buy their old titles if the price is right. Nintendo games have sales as well to be fair. Actually a pretty apt comparison.

My expectation is based on 20+ years of gaming experience. A lot of this was before DLC and live services were an actual factor. Nintendo have actually regressed in this area if anything!

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

Or that Smash Ultimate isn't a $30 game with season passes adding in vets that were in previous games.

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You're right, it's not $30, but Smash is a game that's $60 + DLC that includes characters, stages, and shitty microtransactions for Mii costumes.

 

[Kcannon]

Full price comfort? Sorry but that doesn't justify having full priced games for years and years.

Mario 3D Land only got a Nintendo Selects after 5 years. I've moved on already.

I'm just talking reasonable discounts here, and 'fair' prices, that's different for everybody, but I'm not going to buy it if it feels overpriced. Hence my Nintendo library is far less than my Sony library.

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I would argue most games are underpriced nowadays.

Or do you honestly believe that just 60$ per copy can cover the ridiculous costs of games nowadays? That price tag has been standard for a long time now, despite games obviously increasing in scope.

 

[famikon]

Well, what Adobe means by experience - I don't really know.

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probably this:

 

[BaconHat]

You're right, it's not $30, but Smash is a game that's $60 + DLC that includes characters, stages, and shitty microtransactions for Mii costumes.

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They announced dlc for smash ultimate already? That was quick.

 

[Dekuman]

I'd prefer cosmetic paid DLC over an eternally full priced title. No question about it, as long as the DLC is purely cosmetic.

Blizzard are almost as bad with pricing, but they do have sales and I will only buy their old titles if the price is right. Nintendo games have sales as well to be fair. Actually a pretty apt comparison.

My expectation is based on 20+ years of gaming experience. A lot of this was before DLC and live services were an actual factor. Nintendo have actually regressed in this area if anything!

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You're point is taken. The person your talking to was mostly saying they feel good about buying Nintendo games because they retain value
whilst your complaint is a bit more about perceived value.

I do feel ripped off sometimes when I pick up a game and it goes on sale for 50% off the next week. There's no rhyme or reason and it promotes a culture of binge buying that we're all familiar with.
There's nothing wrong with just charging a fair price and slowly dropping the price over time. Heck, even Nintendo isn't this stingy anymore as we've had multiple sales already this year on their eshop. But the general idea is there.

 

[Dark Cloud]

They announced dlc for smash ultimate already? That was quick.

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They didn't.

 

[Bakercat]

The problem with industry today is that companies want their cake and eat it too. They want a fix price, a second fixed price for added stuff down the road, added micro transactions, and a gambling system that lets the rich and entitled stay ahead.

Miyamoto nails it here. I think subscription services would be a great idea if it ever gets implemented well enough to work for most people. Sadly, game publishers love their greedy ways and it'll be hard to stop since it's been normalized.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

They announced dlc for smash ultimate already? That was quick.

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I mean, are you expecting anything else? lol

 

[Yukinari]

If it werent for the coupons and still having GCU i would have easily skipped most of the switch games. Especially ports.

Even still i skipped sushi striker cause the price difference between 3DS and Switch is laughable. No reason why a game on both systems with identical content should be different prices.

 

[Twilight Suzuka]

Super Mario Run was one of my favorite mobile games. I'm about 1000% more likely to play a mobile game if it has a fixed price up front.

 

[Kcannon]

If it werent for the coupons and still having GCU i would have easily skipped most of the switch games. Especially ports.

Even still i skipped sushi striker cause the price difference between 3DS and Switch is laughable. No reason why a game on both systems with identical content should be different prices.

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One has HD assets. The other doesn't.

 

[Rappy]

Did he say anything about charging U$60,00 for Donkey Kong Tropical Freezer? And why doesn't 1 2 Switch and ARMS cost like U$30,00 by now?

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FWIW, ARMS has been $30 at my Costco for the past 6 months because we can't clear out the stock.

 

[Dark Cloud]

Super Mario Run was one of my favorite mobile games. I'm about 1000% more likely to play a mobile game if it has a fixed price up front.

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It sucks the rest of the mobile industry type of gamers don't want that. Nintendo will have to nickel and dime us on the next 2D Mario game for mobile if they want amazing success.

 

[Yukinari]

One has HD assets. The other doesn't.

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So i guess the only reason captain toad is 40 on both is because its an old game? Its dumb.

But then being an old game doesnt mean tropical freeze is lower priced.

 

[BaconHat]

Since the fixed cost model seems to still be viable for Nintendo, is it gonna be used for their Mario Kark Mobile?

I mean, are you expecting anything else? lol

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I was expecting i did not need to add a /s to the end of that sentence, but oh well.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

There's an error on the article, it's not Cyberagent developing but Cygames for Dragalia Lost

Full price comfort? Sorry but that doesn't justify having full priced games for years and years.

Mario 3D Land only got a Nintendo Selects after 5 years. I've moved on already.

I'm just talking reasonable discounts here, and 'fair' prices, that's different for everybody, but I'm not going to buy it if it feels overpriced. Hence my Nintendo library is far less than my Sony library.

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There's no need for justification on that front. If that was really stopping people to buy games, many of those wouldn't reach the numbers that they reach months after launch with their full price. It's a meaningless discussion anyway because this isn't changing.

Did he say anything about charging U$60,00 for Donkey Kong Tropical Freezer? And why doesn't 1 2 Switch and ARMS cost like U$30,00 by now?

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We don't know if Miyamoto is involved in those aspects and I think he's mostly talk about his vision than representing Nintendo in the discourse since Pocket Camp and FEH exists.

 

[Dennis8K]

Too late!

 

[Kcannon]

So i guess the only reason captain toad is 40 on both is because its an old game? Its dumb.

But then being an old game doesnt mean tropical freeze is lower priced.

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Captain Toad already had HD assets. It was downported to 3DS, which is a different process from upporting.

It's also a much smaller game than DKC.

 

[Dennis8K]

It is super fair the way Nintendo games don't drop in price. Like, ever.

 

[Lothars]

Miyamoto nails it here. I think subscription services would be a great idea if it ever gets implemented well enough to work for most people. Sadly, game publishers love their greedy ways and it'll be hard to stop since it's been normalized.

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I dont agree. I think Nintendo is both dropping the ball and missing the point. Their online subscription service looks to be not worth it and with how poor nintendo is at online, it seems to be an worst value. Not to mention that they have stopped doing VC games but refuse to release them on the switch. if they released their older games in a subscription style service, they would make a killing but 20 Nintendo games that everyone has bought multiple times isnt an incentative to subscribe for online play.

Super Mario Run was one of my favorite mobile games. I'm about 1000% more likely to play a mobile game if it has a fixed price up front.

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I think it was a bad game at a terrible price. It was never worth what they asked for it.

 

[Twilight Suzuka]

It is super fair the way Nintendo games don't drop in price. Like, ever.

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No one is owed a price cut. It's really up to them.

Other companies simply don't have games that will sell for months like Nintendo does. Many third parties will end up seeing $0 after the first few months when it's full price. So they drop the price out of necessity.

Nintendo games will continue to sell for multiple years.

 

[Beatle]

Eh, it might be comforting if you buy day 1 but it's pretty bloody annoying if you are buying a game literally years after release. I won't pay full price for an old game, full stop. I've employed this approach for decades across many consoles and PC... it's only Nintendo that digs their heels in. And again, only sometimes, not necessarily with the most appropriate software choices seemingly. It's sort of bizarre honestly.

Publishers (including Nintendo when they feel like it) have been offering sales/permanent discounts on older titles for decades now and the industry hasn't imploded.

I do agree with his general points about streaming services though.

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This has always baffled me, I don't get what makes a game less fun if it's old, if you don't want it don't buy it

If you have played it before, then it's your choice to buy it again, if you have never played it before, it will still be your first time enjoying it regardless of when it was originally released

 

[PaulloDEC]

People complain about Nintendo's pricing all they want, but there's a certain comfort in buying Zelda day one for $60 knowing that I don't have to wait for the GOTY edition launching at $30 only a year later.

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I'm sure that's nice, but Nintendo take it to the absolute extreme. Where I live, first party Wii U games still often cost as much as brand-new releases on PS4/Xbone. They've 100% lost sales from me by refusing to budge.

 

[Twilight Suzuka]

I think it was a bad game at a terrible price. It was never worth what they asked for it.

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There's 24 levels. It's around $0.42 a level for levels designed by Miyamoto and Tezuka. In addition it has the Mario 10 mode that is extremely replayable with tons of additional levels.

At some point you have to admit you're simply cheap, and are literally complaining because they aren't giving it to you for free.

P.S. The game also has been on sale for $5, so $0.21 cents a level.

 

[Christo750]

He makes a great point but the comparison to the music industry is weird because that industry is now being further destroyed by the very model that everyone thought saved it. Subscription models, as they grow over time, are disadvantageous to creators, and favor publishers and the biggest companies first and foremost.

You're right, it's not $30, but Smash is a game that's $60 + DLC that includes characters, stages, and shitty microtransactions for Mii costumes.

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Smash is probably the worst example, given the amount of stuff packed into it. Yeah it's $60 + DLC most likely, but the past two console Smash games act not only as a party game but as an emulator, and a museum of 10+ hours of Nintendo music, trivia, and artwork. That value for $60 is insane. By any standard, the game should be $80-100 before DLC.

 

[L4DANathan]

Did he say anything about charging U$60,00 for Donkey Kong Tropical Freezer? And why doesn't 1 2 Switch and ARMS cost like U$30,00 by now?

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I lost it at "Deliver games at reasonable prices"

Something something Latin America eShop prices

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Yeah....

 

[Smiles]

I always wondered why this guy is not a billionaire?

 

[Zelas]

When they get f2p right or stop gouging folks with dlc that totals more than the base game, then they can talk authoratatively about how to avoid pricing pitfalls.

The comment about reaching the widest audience possible right after saying they're going full steam ahead with fixed pricing is especially ridiculous after seeing their biggest IP turn out to be such a disappointment. Not to mention the reality he's warning us about has already existed for years. The growth of mobile gaming hasnt stopped since they lost everyone in 2010. The majority of those folks are never going to come back to traditional models on traditional platforms. Hell most core gamers aren't interested in old games being priced at launch prices either. He's so behind the curve.