MLB 2020 Offseason |OT| - Bang Bang

darkside

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,490
Its absolutely shocking to see the Boston Red Sox operate business like they're the Tampa Bay Rays.
 

jacks81x

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,370
NYC
The Red Sox gets the financial flexibility that they wanted, but at what cost? Mookie should've been a Red Sox for life. To trade away a superstar player in his prime, especially for a big-market team, is just wow.
 

efr

Member
Jun 19, 2019
2,272
The Red Sox gets the financial flexibility that they wanted, but at what cost? Mookie should've been a Red Sox for life. To trade away a superstar player in his prime, especially for a big-market team, is just wow.
They were over 100mil apart for a deal. Red Sox have been a poorly ran team since Theo left. They just happened upon Sale, Price and Mookie in their primes.
 

jacks81x

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,370
NYC
They were over 100mil apart for a deal. Red Sox have been a poorly ran team since Theo left. They just happened upon Sale, Price and Mookie in their primes.
And that's on the Red Sox ownership. The GM works for them, not the other way around. The owner should've said no to the Price signing and the Sale extension. Then they wouldn't have ended up in this luxury tax hell.
 

efr

Member
Jun 19, 2019
2,272
The Sale extension came after the World Series and was wholly unnecessary for a guy with his injury history.
Again, are you self aware or just trolling? I feel like you read half a post and then reply to attempt to correct people. Its the majority of your posts.

Sale not being happy is why they did the extension.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,117
The Red Sox gets the financial flexibility that they wanted, but at what cost? Mookie should've been a Red Sox for life. To trade away a superstar player in his prime, especially for a big-market team, is just wow.
And that's on the Red Sox ownership. The GM works for them, not the other way around. The owner should've said no to the Price signing and the Sale extension. Then they wouldn't have ended up in this luxury tax hell.
Betts had made it clear to Sox ownership for a few years now that he was going to FA. His counter was 12/$420M. He'd have been the highest paid player in baseball until he was nearly 40 with that deal, i.e. he was going to FA no matter what.

With this the Red Sox at least got back meaningful cost controlled talent.

They were over 100mil apart for a deal. Red Sox have been a poorly ran team since Theo left. They just happened upon Sale, Price and Mookie in their primes.
Ben Cherrington built arguably the best farm system in baseball in the early to mid-2000's while signing street FAs that won a World Series in 2013.

That farm then was used to staff the ML roster/trade for ML talent that Dombrowski turned into another WS in 2018.

Hard to say they've been poorly ran since Theo left when every GM they've had since has chipped.

Cherrington got somewhat lucky in '13, but even then stayed the course and built the farm. He fucked up with the Sandoval and Ramirez deals, but even with those around the org's. neck Dombrowski could still do what he does, mortgage the future to win another title.

Now they've basically reset the table after this season again with the exception of a fair deal for Bogaerts, Sale's monster contract, and JD Martinez' option laden deal that declines in actual cash value on the back end.

Between Chavis, Dalbec, and Casas they likely have at least 2 ML quality bats for DH/1B long term. Devers is a stud with years of cost control remaining. They'll have holes to fill but they now have the flexibility to do so and won't be getting penalized on draft picks in the process.

If the Sox play .500 ball this season but their lower minors pitching prospects emerge along with Durran or Jimenez as a future CF they'll have a pretty bright near term without even talking about the FA money they'll be able to spend.

Sucks for 2020, but this is how big market teams in MLB are going to play with the new soft cap penalties on draft picks. Much like the NFL its going to be about playing cap games to dive under as a window closes so when the next wave of farm talent is ready they can spend on elite talent once again.
 

efr

Member
Jun 19, 2019
2,272
Betts had made it clear to Sox ownership for a few years now that he was going to FA. His counter was 12/$420M. He'd have been the highest paid player in baseball until he was nearly 40 with that deal, i.e. he was going to FA no matter what.

With this the Red Sox at least got back meaningful cost controlled talent.



Ben Cherrington built arguably the best farm system in baseball in the early to mid-2000's while signing street FAs that won a World Series in 2013.

That farm then was used to staff the ML roster/trade for ML talent that Dombrowski turned into another WS in 2018.

Hard to say they've been poorly ran since Theo left when every GM they've had since has chipped.

Cherrington got somewhat lucky in '13, but even then stayed the course and built the farm. He fucked up with the Sandoval and Ramirez deals, but even with those around the org's. neck Dombrowski could still do what he does, mortgage the future to win another title.

Now they've basically reset the table after this season again with the exception of a fair deal for Bogaerts, Sale's monster contract, and JD Martinez' option laden deal that declines in actual cash value on the back end.

Between Chavis, Dalbec, and Casas they likely have at least 2 ML quality bats for DH/1B long term. Devers is a stud with years of cost control remaining. They'll have holes to fill but they now have the flexibility to do so and won't be getting penalized on draft picks in the process.

If the Sox play .500 ball this season but their lower minors pitching prospects emerge along with Durran or Jimenez as a future CF they'll have a pretty bright near term without even talking about the FA money they'll be able to spend.

Sucks for 2020, but this is how big market teams in MLB are going to play with the new soft cap penalties on draft picks. Much like the NFL its going to be about playing cap games to dive under as a window closes so when the next wave of farm talent is ready they can spend on elite talent once again.
Ben wasn’t in charge in the early 2000s.

You skipped over the Dodgers bailing them out with the waiver wire. Theo fucked the Red Sox by signing Crawford and Gonzalez and then bailing but
Theo drafted Mookie, JBJ, and Xander.
Cherington just rode the wave that the Dodgers allowed to happen.
Dombo sold the farm for Sale and gave Price a contract he didnt deserve but still got them a title despite cheating and poor bullpen management in 2018
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,117
Ben wasn’t in charge in the early 2000s.

You skipped over the Dodgers bailing them out with the waiver wire. Theo fucked the Red Sox by signing Crawford and Gonzalez and then bailing but
Theo drafted Mookie, JBJ, and Xander.
Cherington just rode the wave that the Dodgers allowed to happen.
Dombo sold the farm for Sale and gave Price a contract he didnt deserve but still got them a title despite cheating and poor bullpen management in 2018
Cherrington as VP of player personnel in 2011 and was primarily heading up amateur talent acquisition, so I don't see how he isn't given at least equal credit for the farm that was built over that time, especially since he is credited for a lot of the farm system changes that helped those guys develop.

The Dodgers bailed the Sox out of a bunch of bad deals, sure, but Cherrington was the guy who pulled that deal off. Trades don't happen in vacuum or simply based on one team's ineptitude.

Dombrowski did exactly what he was paid to - get a chip. Sale cost Moncada (a Cherrington signing), Kopech (a Cherington pick in 2014), and Louis Alexander Basabe (a Cherrington signing). At the time they were the 1st, 5th, and 7th prospects by SoxProspects (who usually trend pretty close to major national publications for the top 10). Moncada was already looking like a 3B, overlapping with Devers (3rd) Dalbec (11th) and Chavis (14th). Sale had a pretty team friendly multi-year deal left too, so it worked out well.

Price was an obvious overpay from day one, but thats what you get when you give Dombrowski a big wallet and tell him to get a title. Now Bloom found a way out from under at least half of the worst value proposition in that deal.

Also, you can't say Cherrington did nothing but Dombrowski sold out the farm when the remaining top talent from Epsteins' tenure was either retained and made it to the majors, or flamed out in the Sox farm. Dombrowski mostly traded Cherrington's picks and signings to built the 2018 team (Beeks for Eovaldi, Logan, Guerra, and Asuaje of the Kimbrel deal, and the previously mentioned Sale pieces).

Lastly, the whole sign stealing allegation against the Sox in '18 falls flat in terms of the WS win when 1. the exact method they're accused of was guarded against my MLB during that playoff run and 2. at least one, per player allegations likely at least two of the teams they beat in the AL bracket were doing the same thing. So when there was no possibility to steal signs they rolled the Yankees, Astros, and Dodgers.
 

efr

Member
Jun 19, 2019
2,272
Cherrington as VP of player personnel in 2011 and was primarily heading up amateur talent acquisition, so I don't see how he isn't given at least equal credit for the farm that was built over that time, especially since he is credited for a lot of the farm system changes that helped those guys develop.

The Dodgers bailed the Sox out of a bunch of bad deals, sure, but Cherrington was the guy who pulled that deal off. Trades don't happen in vacuum or simply based on one team's ineptitude.

Dombrowski did exactly what he was paid to - get a chip. Sale cost Moncada (a Cherrington signing), Kopech (a Cherington pick in 2014), and Louis Alexander Basabe (a Cherrington signing). At the time they were the 1st, 5th, and 7th prospects by SoxProspects (who usually trend pretty close to major national publications for the top 10). Moncada was already looking like a 3B, overlapping with Devers (3rd) Dalbec (11th) and Chavis (14th). Sale had a pretty team friendly multi-year deal left too, so it worked out well.

Price was an obvious overpay from day one, but thats what you get when you give Dombrowski a big wallet and tell him to get a title. Now Bloom found a way out from under at least half of the worst value proposition in that deal.

Also, you can't say Cherrington did nothing but Dombrowski sold out the farm when the remaining top talent from Epsteins' tenure was either retained and made it to the majors, or flamed out in the Sox farm. Dombrowski mostly traded Cherrington's picks and signings to built the 2018 team (Beeks for Eovaldi, Logan, Guerra, and Asuaje of the Kimbrel deal, and the previously mentioned Sale pieces).

Lastly, the whole sign stealing allegation against the Sox in '18 falls flat in terms of the WS win when 1. the exact method they're accused of was guarded against my MLB during that playoff run and 2. at least one, per player allegations likely at least two of the teams they beat in the AL bracket were doing the same thing. So when there was no possibility to steal signs they rolled the Yankees, Astros, and Dodgers.
You just wrote about a ton of stuff that had nothing to do with my previous response.

You said Ben was in charge in the early to mid 2000s. Yet immediately skip over that for 2011. Theo was in charge then. You may as well give credit to Kenny Williams and Rich Hahn of the White Sox for giving the Red Sox Chris Sale because the White Sox angered him the way you put Ben on a pedestal.

Have any of Ben’s draft picks after Theo left worked out? Why did Ben get fired? What draft picks from Ben being in charge and Dombo being in charge were part of the two WS titles?

“Everyone else did it!” Isn’t a viable excuse for cheating. The MLB is covering everything up so we’ll never know the full extent but being accused for 2017 and
2018 isnt a good look.

What happened to the Red Sox in 2012, 2014, and 2015 under Ben?

Didnt the Red Sox get knocked out of the playoffs by Cle in 2016? A team that hasnt had a whisper of cheating around them? Didnt Dombo’s Red Sox miss the playoffs this year and he got fired and the manager he hired is gone?

Everything above, that Theo never touched, seems like a dumpster fire.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,117
You just wrote about a ton of stuff that had nothing to do with my previous response.

You said Ben was in charge in the early to mid 2000s. Yet immediately skip over that for 2011. Theo was in charge then. You may as well give credit to Kenny Williams and Rich Hahn of the White Sox for giving the Red Sox Chris Sale because the White Sox angered him the way you put Ben on a pedestal.

Have any of Ben’s draft picks after Theo left worked out? Why did Ben get fired? What draft picks from Ben being in charge and Dombo being in charge were part of the two WS titles?

“Everyone else did it!” Isn’t a viable excuse for cheating. The MLB is covering everything up so we’ll never know the full extent but being accused for 2017 and
2018 isnt a good look.

What happened to the Red Sox in 2012, 2014, and 2015 under Ben?

Didnt the Red Sox get knocked out of the playoffs by Cle in 2016? A team that hasnt had a whisper of cheating around them? Didnt Dombo’s Red Sox miss the playoffs this year and he got fired and the manager he hired is gone?

Everything above, that Theo never touched, seems like a dumpster fire.
1. I'm saying that in 2011 Ben Cherrington is the dude who ran the Sox amateur scouting dept. that picked Betts, JBJ, and signed Bogaerts. Epstein had largely delegated amateur acquisition to Cherrington at that point. They were more Ben's picks than Theo's.

2. Benintendi blew through the minors and is already an ML player. The Sox also had to realign mL talent acquisition immediately after Theo left because MLB realigned draft pick compensation for losing FAs (the system Theo and Ben used to stack up multiple first and second round picks many years) and draft bonus allowances. With those restrictions Cherrington implemented the most successful period of international amateur FA signings the Sox have likely ever seen, getting Moncada for a kings ransom, sure, but Devers was a relative unknown when signed and is now a star. Anderson Espinoza was, prior to TJ, a top 15 prospect. The Basabe brothers, Guerra, Dubon, etc. were all top 100 prospects at one point that Dombrowksi moved for (generally) good value.

3. Cherrington resigned because he signed Sandoval and Ramirez, who both immediately imploded, so Henry wanted Dombrowksi to take a senior position and dictate the makeup of the ML club. Per Henry himself he wanted Cherrington to stay, an unrealisitc assessment on his part. Cherrington and Dombrowksi are mirror images of each other - the former is a great amateur talent evaluator who after a lucky run in 2013 bombed as a ML talent evaluator. The later is a brilliant ML talent evaluator who has not time for the arm as anything other than tradestock. Both approaches can work, as seen in that they both won titles.

4. Everyone else doing it or not is relevant for the regular season. What is most relevant is that come the playoffs controls were in place to prevent exactly this and the Sox still won. Do you think the win avantage gained in the regular season would have placed the 2018 club, one of the all-time great regular season win records, out of the playoffs entirely? Obviously not. So once in the playoffs, without any kind of pitch stealing system for any of the major clubs who have been implicated, the Sox won every series in lopsided fashion.

5. Dombrowski's departure was directly tied to the swings he took to win in '18. He spent big, he then spent big to keep those pieces for a '19 run that blew up in his face.

What your response tells me is that you aren't understanding how Henry is running the Red Sox. Epstein was exceptionally talented to be sure. He is one of the very few talent evaluators in baseball who can effectively assess amateur, minor league, and major league talent effectively. Billy Beane might be the only proven comp. Since he left Henry has been quick to change to the kind of GM he thought he needed. After Epstein he needed someone to manage the farm and right the ship financially. Cherrington did that. Once Cherrington had built a top 5 farm and shown he wasn't as good at ML talent evaluation Henry switched to Dombrowski to capitalize on a short term window before signability took away some or all of the young core. Now that the closing of that specific window is at hande he's switched to Bloom, someone with proven credentials in mL talent acquisition and cost-conscious roster filling while they excise the burdensome contracts from Dombrowksi's tenure.

He isn't looking for the next Theo. He's looking for the guy they need today. If one of them emerges as the next Epstein I'm sure he'll bend over backwards to keep them, but so far they all have various strengths and weaknesses. What matters most to Henry is that the club is competitive ~4 out of 5 years and chips on about a 1 ever 4-5 year cycle. That is, in baseball terms, incredible success.
 
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Sanjuro

Sanjuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,238
Massachusetts
Why are we talking about Theo in 2020? We have won two World Series titles after him. The departure of Mookie has nothing to do with him, Ben, or Dombrowski.
 

CharGP02A

Member
Nov 23, 2017
1,704
Dang, why couldn't my Phillies do this???? They didn't do shit this offseason. We're gonna miss the playoffs again.
 

efr

Member
Jun 19, 2019
2,272
Why are we talking about Theo in 2020? We have won two World Series titles after him. The departure of Mookie has nothing to do with him, Ben, or Dombrowski.
Because the guys carrying the Red Sox after Theo left, were mostly Theo guys. With the exception of Sale and Price.
3. Cherrington resigned because he signed Sandoval and Ramirez, who both immediately imploded, so Henry wanted Dombrowksi to take a senior position and dictate the makeup of the ML club. Per Henry himself he wanted Cherrington to stay, an unrealisitc assessment on his part. Cherrington and Dombrowksi are mirror images of each other - the former is a great amateur talent evaluator who after a lucky run in 2013 bombed as a ML talent evaluator. The later is a brilliant ML talent evaluator who has not time for the arm as anything other than tradestock. Both approaches can work, as seen in that they both won titles.

4. Everyone else doing it or not is relevant for the regular season. What is most relevant is that come the playoffs controls were in place to prevent exactly this and the Sox still won. Do you think the win avantage gained in the regular season would have placed the 2018 club, one of the all-time great regular season win records, out of the playoffs entirely? Obviously not. So once in the playoffs, without any kind of pitch stealing system for any of the major clubs who have been implicated, the Sox won every series in lopsided fashion.

5. Dombrowski's departure was directly tied to the swings he took to win in '18. He spent big, he then spent big to keep those pieces for a '19 run that blew up in his face.

What your response tells me is that you aren't understanding how Henry is running the Red Sox. Epstein was exceptionally talented to be sure. He is one of the very few talent evaluators in baseball who can effectively assess amateur, minor league, and major league talent effectively. Billy Beane might be the only proven comp. Since he left Henry has been quick to change to the kind of GM he thought he needed. After Epstein he needed someone to manage the farm and right the ship financially. Cherrington did that. Once Cherrington had built a top 5 farm and shown he wasn't as good at ML talent evaluation Henry switched to Dombrowski to capitalize on a short term window before signability took away some or all of the young core. Now that the closing of that specific window is at hande he's switched to Bloom, someone with proven credentials in mL talent acquisition and cost-conscious roster filling while they excise the burdensome contracts from Dombrowksi's tenure.

He isn't looking for the next Theo. He's looking for the guy they need today. If one of them emerges as the next Epstein I'm sure he'll bend over backwards to keep them, but so far they all have various strengths and weaknesses. What matters most to Henry is that the club is competitive ~4 out of 5 years and chips on about a 1 ever 4-5 year cycle. That is, in baseball terms, incredible success.
Point 3 and 5 prove what I said about the team being poorly ran since Theo left. Your response of telling me that I don't understand what Henry wants to do, as you explicitly say Henry has no idea what he was doing in previous points(specifically wanting Ben to stay). You summed up my point brilliantly for me, while also making excuses for cheating, during a poorly ran team. If Henry cared about the club being competitive for 4 out of 5 years, then one off year shouldn't get your GM fired everytime it happens. Again, your write up sounds like a Boston Globe article sticking up for a poorly ran franchise who happened to win two World Series, one of which is in the mix of all the cheating scandals, with a manager directly involved on two teams. More evidence of a poorly ran franchise that allows cheating to even occur.

And another point I forgot to respond to before, the replay room was unguarded in 2018 regular season, which the Red Sox scored the most runs in all of baseball and had the best record in baseball. Again, just because other teams did it, doesnt make it right. Just because President Trump makes fun of a handicapped person, doesn't make it right.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,117
Point 3 and 5 prove what I said about the team being poorly ran since Theo left. Your response of telling me that I don't understand what Henry wants to do, as you explicitly say Henry has no idea what he was doing in previous points(specifically wanting Ben to stay).
OK, so you're just being disingenuous then.

A miscalculation is not "poorly ran". He was optimistic Cherrington would stay but was still willing to take the risk in hiring Dombrowski to win short term.

And thats exactly what they did.

You summed up my point brilliantly for me, while also making excuses for cheating, during a poorly ran team. If Henry cared about the club being competitive for 4 out of 5 years, then one off year shouldn't get your GM fired everytime it happens.
One off year isn't getting Cherrington or Dombrowski fired. The window of what the organization was changing is what dictated their departure. Cherrington cultivated a great farm system. He could have stayed and continued if he'd have wanted, but under the condition that he accepts Dombrowski selling off parts of it for short term gain. Dombrowski did exactly that, won, and when that window closed sooner than expected was replaced with someone fitting the team's current needs.

Henry is possibly over-aggressive but he isn't reactionary. His changes have, since day one, aligned with what the direction the organization needed to go.

Again, your write up sounds like a Boston Globe article sticking up for a poorly ran franchise who happened to win two World Series, one of which is in the mix of all the cheating scandals, with a manager directly involved on two teams.
Poorly ran franchises don't chip on a 4 year average for the better part of two decades and counting.

More evidence of a poorly ran franchise that allows cheating to even occur.

And another point I forgot to respond to before, the replay room was unguarded in 2018 regular season, which the Red Sox scored the most runs in all of baseball and had the best record in baseball. Again, just because other teams did it, doesnt make it right. Just because President Trump makes fun of a handicapped person, doesn't make it right.
And I'll respond very much as I did before: how many wins do you think pitch stealing gave them over every other team? Correct for that and they still win the division. Once in the playoffs they weren't able to cheat and proceeded to beat the #2 and #3 teams in the AL and the #1 team in the NL.

Also, if you're wondering why MLB is sweeping pitch stealing under the rug: its because every team was doing it to some degree with various success. It is to today's game what steroids where in the 90's/early 2000's. Something everyone tacitly condones until it becomes so blatantly obvious as to need condemning to save face publicly.

That isn't justifying it. It was wrong and getting rid of Cora was the right move on the Sox part. But when there is explicit documentation of it being controlled for the Sox '18 WS but not for the Astros '17 title and prior the Sox chip in '18 is, in retrospect, the least suspect of the last several years.
 

efr

Member
Jun 19, 2019
2,272
OK, so you're just being disingenuous then.

A miscalculation is not "poorly ran". He was optimistic Cherrington would stay but was still willing to take the risk in hiring Dombrowski to win short term.

And thats exactly what they did.


One off year isn't getting Cherrington or Dombrowski fired. The window of what the organization was changing is what dictated their departure. Cherrington cultivated a great farm system. He could have stayed and continued if he'd have wanted, but under the condition that he accepts Dombrowski selling off parts of it for short term gain. Dombrowski did exactly that, won, and when that window closed sooner than expected was replaced with someone fitting the team's current needs.

Henry is possibly over-aggressive but he isn't reactionary. His changes have, since day one, aligned with what the direction the organization needed to go.


Poorly ran franchises don't chip on a 4 year average for the better part of two decades and counting.


And I'll respond very much as I did before: how many wins do you think pitch stealing gave them over every other team? Correct for that and they still win the division. Once in the playoffs they weren't able to cheat and proceeded to beat the #2 and #3 teams in the AL and the #1 team in the NL.

Also, if you're wondering why MLB is sweeping pitch stealing under the rug: its because every team was doing it to some degree with various success. It is to today's game what steroids where in the 90's/early 2000's. Something everyone tacitly condones until it becomes so blatantly obvious as to need condemning to save face publicly.

That isn't justifying it. It was wrong and getting rid of Cora was the right move on the Sox part. But when there is explicit documentation of it being controlled for the Sox '18 WS but not for the Astros '17 title and prior the Sox chip in '18 is, in retrospect, the least suspect of the last several years.
Again, everything here sounds like a Globe article. Every single excuse for Henry firing someone so quickly isnt reactionary? One losing season and you're gone. Dombo didn't even make it til the offseason last year. I feel like I'm talking to a meatball fan now with all of your excuses. You can't calculate how many wins because we don't have the evidence of when it was used like we do with the Astros and the trash banging. It's known they cheated during the 2018 regular season. They had a franchise record for most wins, they had the league lead in runs scored and won a World Series, with a manager who was part of the 2017 cheating scandal who openly joked about other Astros employees cheating to Red Sox beat writers..

Next you're going to tell me McGwire and Bonds didn't hit all those home runs because they were on steroids and twice the size of the average MLB player. Or Sosa's broken bat was fine. If everyone cheats on a Final in school, its still cheating. If everyone was doing it, why aren't the Dodgers, Indians, Cardinals(who cheat via digital stealing) or any other playoff team besides the Astros, Yankees and Red Sox being outed? Why did Joe Maddon condemn having iPads and electronics in the dugout in 2016?
 
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Sanjuro

Sanjuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,238
Massachusetts
It sounds nothing like a Globe article. He would have accused you of abusing prescription drugs for sure.

The steroid witch hunt argument in 2020 does sound tired as hell.
 

affeinvasion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,622
Here's the thing with Pete Rose. If you are cheating to win, you are still trying to win. If you are betting on baseball as a player or manager there is the distinct possibility that you are trying to lose because purposefully losing is way easier. And purposefully losing is the thing that completely wrecks the hallowed "integrity of the game."

The sign stealing thing isn't even the zaniest sign stealing example in baseball history. There was a player who would get an electric shock when a guy behind the scoreboard would see that a fastball was coming, and people only discovered it because he started to get tremors in his leg from the electrodes.
 

RBH

Official ERA expert on Third Party Football
Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,280
Hello friends

Check out part of my lunch from the other day!







:)