MLB 2020 Offseason |OT| - Bang Bang

Kevinception

Member
Jan 18, 2020
234
Here's the thing with Pete Rose. If you are cheating to win, you are still trying to win. If you are betting on baseball as a player or manager there is the distinct possibility that you are trying to lose because purposefully losing is way easier. And purposefully losing is the thing that completely wrecks the hallowed "integrity of the game."
what’s the difference in breaking the rules that unfairly pushes your team to lose and breaking the rules that unfairly pushes another to team lose?
 
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affeinvasion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,622
what’s the difference in breaking the rules that unfairly pushes your team lose and breaking the rules that unfairly pushes another team lose?
Honestly? It's a semantic one, but the "natural" goal is for your own team to win and the other team to lose. Punishments exist when people skirt the rules to achieve the natural goal of competitive sports. You don't even need to technically cheat to purposefully lose. That's what tanking does, but the idea that you could benefit from losing on purpose affects confidence in the sport on a fundamental level. Maybe if there wasn't a real history of the mob fixing sporting events, it wouldn't matter.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,906
Betting on your own team doesn’t just raise questions about purposely losing. Betting to win corrupts the decision-making as well, especially in baseball, especially as the manager. If you have a winning bet on this game but not on the next one, or vice versa, that effects who you start, who you use, how long you leave pitchers in, etc.
 

Kevinception

Member
Jan 18, 2020
234
Betting on your own team doesn’t just raise questions about purposely losing. Betting to win corrupts the decision-making as well, especially in baseball, especially as the manager. If you have a winning bet on this game but not on the next one, or vice versa, that effects who you start, who you use, how long you leave pitchers in, etc.
Eh...think of the slew of pitchers over the years who got pummeled in this syndicate of high tech cheating. Many were sent down with ballooned eras, some never getting a second chance in the majors. Think of all the pitching changes that had to have happened as a result, the eventual overuse of arms, the draining of bullpens that causes an adverse affect across multiple games.

If you want to draw out the Pete Rose Effect, I can do the same with this organized ring of bad actors. I really don’t see the difference to be honest.
 

affeinvasion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,622
If your only way to get hitters out is that they don't know what's coming, you aren't going to be in the league for very long outside of situational relief anyway. Not to mention if it's one team getting signals, that shouldn't affect your performance against the entire league. Nobody is getting sent down because they only suck at pitching to one team.

Most of the major sabermetrics sites haven't even been able to conclusively find a link between sign stealing and improved performance, anyway. There's the aspect that if you know you're going to get tipped off on a certain pitch, that you may not swing at something that would actually be more beneficial to hit--say a hanging slider or a bad curveball.

The Astros got blasted for how they attempted to steal signs, not for actually stealing signs. Sign stealing is not cheating. How the Astros (and a lot of other teams with guys in the stands with binoculars, people putting up symbols on the scoreboards, etc.) stole signs was what they were punished for. Sign stealing is part of the game, and pitchers and catchers know that and try to circumvent it in their own ways.

Baseball is literally full to the brim of people trying to get a competitive advantage any way they can because it's a really hard sport. I find it endlessly amusing that they guy who blew the whistle on the sign stealing stuff was also the guy who threw a no-hitter with the obvious aid of pine tar.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,112
Who is Boston getting rid of to afford him under the luxury tax? Or did they save enough by getting rid of half of Price's contract?
didn't they get under the luxury tax with the trade of him and price?
I saw this on twitter thinking it was a meme lol

I’m causal in mlb stuff but didn’t boston let him go cause they don’t want to pay him?
Mookie has stated multiple times that he wanted to test the open market period.
And boston let him go because they want to get under the luxury tax so they won't be hit with the biggest penalties so they can go out and spend again next year. Whether it's for mookie or not who knows, but the main point was they were in line to be hit with harsh penalties this year, but if they are under this year that all resets as far as I know.

edit: luxury tax is at 208 mil this season
after the trade the red sox are at a little over 187 mil by cots baseball contracts

getting rid of mookie saved them 27 mil, and price saves them 16 mil (he's 32 mil but they are paying half)
so before the trade they had 230 mil on the books, now they are well under even if cots is missing some minor contracts they shouldn't go over 208 mil.

Just as with the old system, teams would have to pay a percentage of every dollar by which their payroll exceeded the set threshold. Under the 2002 and 2006 CBAs, the agreement brought about a progressive taxation system. They agreed that first time offenders would pay a fee of 17.5% of excess payrolls (later increased to 22.5%), second time offenders would pay 30%, and third time offenders would pay 40%. In the 2012 CBA, after seeing teams go over more than three times, the agreement added a 50% taxation level when teams went over the limit four or more times. Under the 2016 CBA, first time offenders would pay a fee of 20% on the dollar, second time offenders would pay a 30% on the dollar, and third or subsequent time offenders would have to pay 50% on the dollar (These offenses must be in consecutive years for these percentages. If a team falls below the threshold one year the penalty re-sets the next year to the "first offense")
Boston's payroll in 2018 was $239,481,745 at the end of the year and $243,653,717 in 2019 so they are in line to have to pay a 50% penalty for anything they are over this year, but if they remain below the limit this year it resets down to a 20% penalty the next time they go over it.

price is on the books for 3 more seasons, so if after this season they go hard in on bets they will only risk paying the first two penalties again before they cut cash for the 3rd season again.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
8,096
I guess they could start the cycle again but I doubt they get Betts back

Do they have other players in line for big raises next season?

I'm just hoping the Jays pay up for a couple years of free agent eligible years of Vladdy and Bichette now but I doubt it
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,112
I guess they could start the cycle again but I doubt they get Betts back

Do they have other players in line for big raises next season?

I'm just hoping the Jays pay up for a couple years of free agent eligible years of Vladdy and Bichette now but I doubt it
the link I posted includes their future commitments

I don't see anything significant in terms of raises there. Eduardo Rodríguez would likely be the top one.
If they are failing to contend this year and Chris Sale returns to proper form I could see them possibly moving him during the season.

It's hard to say who will sign Bets, I'm mostly saying that Boston is lining up well to sign him after this season.
On the flip side the yankees will be in the position the red sox are staring down a 50% penalty so will likely try to cut salary and not take on Betts after this season.
Looks like the Dodgers would be fine luxury tax wise after the season to sign Bets without reaching the 50% penalty though.

as for Vladdy and Bichette, I wouldn't rule it out. The White Sox have been signing more of their young talent like that, and so far it's worked out fairly well for them. They get the talent cheaper for longer, and when they near the end of the contract they become a major trade chip due to the contract. I imagine more teams will try that out as in general if the players average 2 WAR a season they are still worth the contract the white sox are signing them at.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,096
the link I posted includes their future commitments

I don't see anything significant in terms of raises there. Eduardo Rodríguez would likely be the top one.
If they are failing to contend this year and Chris Sale returns to proper form I could see them possibly moving him during the season.

It's hard to say who will sign Bets, I'm mostly saying that Boston is lining up well to sign him after this season.
On the flip side the yankees will be in the position the red sox are staring down a 50% penalty so will likely try to cut salary and not take on Betts after this season.
Looks like the Dodgers would be fine luxury tax wise after the season to sign Bets without reaching the 50% penalty though.

as for Vladdy and Bichette, I wouldn't rule it out. The White Sox have been signing more of their young talent like that, and so far it's worked out fairly well for them. They get the talent cheaper for longer, and when they near the end of the contract they become a major trade chip due to the contract. I imagine more teams will try that out as in general if the players average 2 WAR a season they are still worth the contract the white sox are signing them at.
Yes, the White Sox model

However, Bichette and Vladdy probably aren't hurting to get paid right away thanks to their dads so they may just want to wait and see if they can get more later on
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,112
Yes, the White Sox model

However, Bichette and Vladdy probably aren't hurting to get paid right away thanks to their dads so they may just want to wait and see if they can get more later on
Luis Robert wasn't hurting to get paid either and he still took a deal. He had a 26 mil signing bonus and still " Robert agreed to a six-year, $50 million contract with the Chicago White Sox before appearing in a major league game. The contract includes team options for 2026 and 2027 which, if exercised, could bring the value of the contract to $88 million "
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,096
Luis Robert wasn't hurting to get paid either and he still took a deal. He had a 26 mil signing bonus and still " Robert agreed to a six-year, $50 million contract with the Chicago White Sox before appearing in a major league game. The contract includes team options for 2026 and 2027 which, if exercised, could bring the value of the contract to $88 million "
Good point
 

kIdMuScLe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
747
lets goooo, I love that he filed in LA and its for a good cause as well as revenge
I’m surprised more pitchers haven’t filed lawsuits against the Astros. I hope they have a good chance to win too. Fuck the Astros and manfred
 

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,600
In a suit filed Monday in Los Angeles Superior Court, Mike Bolsinger asked that the Astros be assessed $31 million in restitution — an amount believed to be equal to their postseason award bonuses in 2017 — and that the money be donated to charities.

This should happen and be at least doubled given the money they made off the win + screwing over the earning potential of multiple pitchers.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,029
Houston
I’m surprised more pitchers haven’t filed lawsuits against the Astros. I hope they have a good chance to win too. Fuck the Astros and manfred
In a suit filed Monday in Los Angeles Superior Court, Mike Bolsinger asked that the Astros be assessed $31 million in restitution — an amount believed to be equal to their postseason award bonuses in 2017 — and that the money be donated to charities.

This should happen and be at least doubled given the money they made off the win + screwing over the earning potential of multiple pitchers.
its nice to want things.

yes the guy with *checks notes* career 4.92 era and 1.51 whip lost his career cause he faced the astros one time.
 

abellwillring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,126
Austin, TX
Now that Kenta is officially gone it just sort of dawned on me that the Dodgers don't have an Asian player on the roster. Can't remember the last time that was the case.. there haven't been many instances since Hideo.

Most likely, though my money is on he signs with Boston.
No one with Boston thought they had a chance to re-sign him in general..why would they get him now that he's left?

If he wants $400m, I'd imagine the Dodges will let him walk. Hopefully with a title under his belt.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,029
Houston
They're throwing Beltran all the way under the bus.


My favorite quote is bletran saying our sign stealing was behind the times.

Beltran before joining the Astros,
Yankees, Yankees, Yankees, after join the Astros, Yankees, Yankees.

So you want to tell me he comes to Houston and develops a sign stealing scheme he's never used before and never uses again.

"Felt powerless to stop him." Get the fuck outta here with that. Give the Astros the SMU treatment.
bregman was in his first full year. Correa his third, Yuli first year. There is some merit to Beltran and McCann being the veteran leaders.
 

kIdMuScLe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
747
Is fucked up that MLB suspends Arod for a whole year when they never caught him with steroids but give these Astros a fucking pass for cheating
 

captmcblack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,224
Can't suspend half the league when only one team was stupid enough to live decipher and live transmit their stolen signs via live video relay and trash can AFTER a memo came out to not do it
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,037
They should just leave it alone. I’m not sure why the Astros even care to address it. It’s 100% disingenuous. They don’t actually feel bad. The players are all full of shit. They got a ring out of it. They’d do it again in a heartbeat. There is nothing to gain from any of this. There will never be a satisfying resolution.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,029
Houston
as Far as we know only the Astros got officially caught cheating with testimony and evidence. So that’s a dumbass take.
bull. fucking. shit.
The red sox were caught with apple watches cheating in 2017. And have already fired their manager and currently waiting on the investigation to conclude on their 2018 cheating, which has been widely reported continued with Cora.

beyond that,
Beltran spent 3 years with the yankees, comes to houston and says quote "your sign stealing is behind the times" helps develops the system in houston and goes back to the yankees for two more years. And your gonna tell me he did nothing there, the only time he did sign stealing was the one single year he was in houston?

the mets and brewers have both accused the dodgers of sign stealing. The Rangers have been named as another sign stealing team, as well.

if you want to believe the astros were the only team doing it, be my guest. But don't act surprised when it comes out other teams did too.
 

captmcblack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,224
Like, I wish the press conference was them just being like "we're sorry we cheated the game" and then at least you could feel like they acknowledged it. They are so adamant about not owning it that the entire franchise and fanbase are damn near drawing summoning circles hoping for every team to be cheaters too, trying to conflate all sign stealing (or unrelated things like steroids) into what they did.

Crane won't even acknowledge that it was a bad thing, only that they "broke a rule". I want this to be done because everyone paid up and they're not revoking titles, but it won't blow over if it's muddied up or disavowed.