Modern Vintage Gamer: The Xbox Series X has a big DRM problem

[Deleted member 79058]

Didn't Don Mattrick get fired when he told people who couldn't set up xb1 on a nuclear submarine since it was an offline environment yet they went through with this on the X-Series X and nobody said anything for months now?

Click to shrink...

You need to connect the console on the internet the first time you boot it up and no one said shit about it. :P
From my understanding in this situation, you only need a internet connection to play BC games (Xbox One, 360 and OG Xbox) from disc. Native Xbox Series X discs don't need a internet connection.

Okay!

So how does MSFT let Ubisoft run things to that extent. They shouldn't require me to shut off internet access in order to play an offline mode. Basically ruining a whole console experience. Not trying to be argumentative but its confusing how this is allowed to happen on the platform and I think it's a pointer to a weakness(opportunity for improvement) in how the company handles offline play.

Click to shrink...

It works. Don't throw it away and go play Doom Eternal. lol
About Watch Dogs Legion: I don't think Microsoft will talk to Ubisoft like "don't make your game ask for login and password!" when they can do it on every other platform.

 

[rntongo]

You need to connect the console on the internet the first time you boot it up and no one said shit about it. :P
From my understanding in this situation, you only need a internet connection to play BC games (Xbox One, 360 and OG Xbox) from disc. Native Xbox Series X discs don't need a internet connection.



It works. Don't throw it away and go play Doom Eternal. lol
About Watch Dogs Legion: I don't think Microsoft will talk to Ubisoft like "don't make your game ask for login and password!" when they can do it on every other platform.

Click to shrink...

Lol okay. I liked the first new Doom so this one should be good as well.
I think MSFT as the platform holder should enforce certain rules that Ubisoft has to follow as a third party developer for their platform. I dont think its fair to set such conditions for a user to play offline. But again there's nothing I can do. I think they need to really look into offline play as a whole or the console experience without internet. It will resolve everything to do with DRM etc if they looked at it that way. Users just want to start a game without any interruptions. If they buy a disc game for next gen, they want to insert and play. In the unlikely case that there is a hiccup with the internet, I don't want my console bricked and I can't play offline campaigns. I also have siblings who I wanted to gift my Series X but now not sure. I may have to get them a PS5 since the internet isn't so good where they live. It would be a pain having to deal with DRM and third party games that have weird rules.

 

[MonsterMech]

Only way I could play offline was to completely turn my internet off. So I just deleted the game. Look at it this way. Imagine a calculator app on your phone asked you to either sign up or turn it on airplane mode anytime you needed to use it. Would you even use it?

Click to shrink...

Well in the name of game preservation that's kinda the point. You won't have the internet or servers to connect to.

for the principal of the thing I understand your frustration, but again that's the way Ubisoft coded their game. You probably should stay away from their games going forward as I think they all work that way.

 

[OscarK]

regarding the BC one-time connection (which seems to be the largest part of this whole 'controversy', especially at a time of cross gen titles), are you able to comment on the size of these bits? It may be out of your control, but I think people are connecting that decryption and compatibility bit download as the "DRM". Is this something that could be handled offline as part of the OS using a database of the bits and an on-device decryptor?

Click to shrink...

The "registration" step involving package header decryption and download of updated metadata is not a new step - this happens to every game on Xbox One and Series X|S; the new aspect is that for back-compat games on Series X|S, we also do a one-time connection to download various compatibility settings and also ensure that the game is patched to a min version (the back-compat team famously spent hundreds of thousands of hours validating every game, but it is not possible to also validate and ensure every version of every game works). This connection is not an attempt at DRM as it'd be a very useless form if it were (unlimited offline play is allowed after registration), but is for technical reasons to ensure a guarantee of compatibility (that we take very seriously).

Apart from this additional step for BC games only, the licensing model on Series X|S has not changed since Xbox One (where it was also essentially the same as on PS4 and PS5).

Having said that, this thread and the video has helped underline that we could be doing a better job in a couple of aspects:
- The error messaging for a variety of licensing errors are too generic and unhelpful. The video showcases multiple different error codes (so I can tell what is actually happening), but the human-readable messages are bad and don't inform or help the user understand the issue. We had already been working on revamping these and this highlights the importance of that effort.
- What is actually a check for the right set of compatibility settings is causing users to hit scenarios where they are not able to play even though they expected otherwise; users shouldn't need to know or care about what "registration" does or when it occurs. There have been discussions internally today on how we could improve this situation without making the compatibility experience worse, and whilst this is not a promise, we have heard and understand the frustration in this feedback and are looking for what we can do to improve the scenario.


I hope a little transparency helps and we really appreciate the feedback (both positive and negative) as it helps us build a better product that better suits the needs of our users.

 

[vixolus]

The "registration" step involving package header decryption and download of updated metadata is not a new step - this happens to every game on Xbox One and Series X|S; the new aspect is that for back-compat games on Series X|S, we also do a one-time connection to download various compatibility settings and also ensure that the game is patched to a min version (the back-compat team famously spent hundreds of thousands of hours validating every game, but it is not possible to also validate and ensure every version of every game works). This connection is not an attempt at DRM as it'd be a very useless form if it were (unlimited offline play is allowed after registration), but is for technical reasons to ensure a guarantee of compatibility (that we take very seriously).

Apart from this additional step for BC games only, the licensing model on Series X|S has not changed since Xbox One (where it was also essentially the same as on PS4 and PS5).

Having said that, this thread and the video has helped underline that we could be doing a better job in a couple of aspects:
- The error messaging for a variety of licensing errors are too generic and unhelpful. The video showcases multiple different error codes (so I can tell what is actually happening), but the human-readable messages are bad and don't inform or help the user understand the issue. We had already been working on revamping these and this highlights the importance of that effort.
- What is actually a check for the right set of compatibility settings is causing users to hit scenarios where they are not able to play even though they expected otherwise; users shouldn't need to know or care about what "registration" does or when it occurs. There have been discussions internally today on how we could improve this situation without making the compatibility experience worse, and whilst this is not a promise, we have heard and understand the frustration in this feedback and are looking for what we can do to improve the scenario.


I hope a little transparency helps and we really appreciate the feedback (both positive and negative) as it helps us build a better product that better suits the needs of our users.

Click to shrink...

Thanks! I really appreciate having you provide clarity on these situations and being able to share a lot of valuable perspective.

 

[metal]

Lol that is not DRM.

I bought Watch Dogs legion and it barely works when I didn't have internet yet all I wanted to do was play the campaign. It required me to set up an account with them so that I can play offline. I never played it again. Just deleted it.

Click to shrink...

That's an Ubisoft thing, Valhalla is the same way. It stupid and annoying.

 

[Ardend]

The "registration" step involving package header decryption and download of updated metadata is not a new step - this happens to every game on Xbox One and Series X|S; the new aspect is that for back-compat games on Series X|S, we also do a one-time connection to download various compatibility settings and also ensure that the game is patched to a min version (the back-compat team famously spent hundreds of thousands of hours validating every game, but it is not possible to also validate and ensure every version of every game works). This connection is not an attempt at DRM as it'd be a very useless form if it were (unlimited offline play is allowed after registration), but is for technical reasons to ensure a guarantee of compatibility (that we take very seriously).

Click to shrink...

Thanks for the explanation OscarK! With the goal of some of this being that people would like to be able to play these on an Xbox One|Series S|X 20 years from now, and of course the assumption is that these servers are no longer online, could these elements that you are downloading to the system be provided as a download to be installed manually, say from a USB drive? Perhaps a "backwards compatibility configuration pack" or something? Yes maybe it means they would be installing all of them at once, even for games they don't have, but this would allow these games to run on a disconnected system with the disc, right?

 

[Deleted member 3010]

What a moronic video. How do you expect Smart Delivery discs to have two different SKUs at the same time on the same limited space of the disc? Besides, Microsoft doesn't decide what SKU goes on the disc. The game's publisher does. As for needing to go online to download the emulator for back-compat games, no shit. The features Series X provides for back-compat games obviously can't be used simply from the disc version.

And where a game is Series X/S only, the video shows that it works offline just fine.

I mean, fuck Microsoft in general, cause Windows 10 is a piece of shit with baked-in telemetry, but this is a nothing-burger video. And the person doesn't know what DRM is.

I do understand that not being able to play Smart Delivery or BC discs without internet access could be an issue for certain customers, and it's certainly a valid complaint. But that's basically an issue with Microsoft's implementation of BC and stuff. Just like Sony's implementation has other issues but not this one.

Click to shrink...

MVG is legit so perhaps be a bit less aggressive in your posts by avoiding calling his content moronic and saying he doesn't know what DRM is, the irony is strong.

 

[Deleted member 46489]

MVG is legit so perhaps be a bit less aggressive in your posts by avoiding calling his content moronic and saying he doesn't know what DRM is, the irony is strong.

Click to shrink...

A person who doesn't know what DRM is and makes a video with a false premise is a Moron. I'm saying that super calmly, there's no aggression.

(Edit: The above was in very poor taste and I apologize unconditionally. Personal attacks aren't cool.)

Also, the way you've used that word, I don't think you know what irony means.

Edit: Here are some helpful links-

Digital rights management | Copyright Protection, DRM Solutions & Strategies

Digital rights management (DRM), protection of copyrighted works by various means to control or prevent digital copies from being shared over computer networks or telecommunications networks. In response to the explosion of digital content, copyright holders have sought greater protection from...

www.britannica.com

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

 

[Meatwad]

A person who doesn't know what DRM is and makes a video with a false premise is a Moron. I'm saying that super calmly, there's no aggression.

Also, the way you've used that word, I don't think you know what irony means.

Edit: Here are some helpful links-

Digital rights management | Copyright Protection, DRM Solutions & Strategies

Digital rights management (DRM), protection of copyrighted works by various means to control or prevent digital copies from being shared over computer networks or telecommunications networks. In response to the explosion of digital content, copyright holders have sought greater protection from...

www.britannica.com

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Click to shrink...

I can assure you MVG knows what DRM is and if he is wrong in this instance why call him a moron? Just point out the inaccuracies in a helpful explanatory manner and hey maybe he'd see it and issue a correction. Calling him a "moron" or other needless name-calling is bullying behavior and belittles whatever point you were trying to make in the first place. Honestly nobody should be reading your post past the word "moron".

 

[raketenrolf]

DRM or not, his point is you can't do anything with your X1 discs if you are offline, while for example on a PS5 you could at least play a barebones PS4 version or whatever is on the disc.

And considering most physical Xbox games currently are smart delivery games with X1 content on the disc.. means it's not optimal for people with a bad connection or basically worthless when it comes to preservation (if it isn't being made available offline at some point).

 

[Deleted member 46489]

I can assure you MVG knows what DRM is and if he is wrong in this instance why call him a moron? Just point out the inaccuracies in a helpful explanatory manner and hey maybe he'd see it and issue a correction. Calling him a "moron" or other needless name-calling is bullying behavior and belittles whatever point you were trying to make in the first place. Honestly nobody should be reading your post past the word "moron".

Click to shrink...

You're right. I apologize for my words. MVG isn't a Moron. The video, unfortunately, remains moronic.

Part of the problem is that a lot of people involved in the games industry don't understand legal terms or legal concepts, especially around copyright. Which is why we keep getting all these fan-remakes or fan-games with years of work that get shut down by the original IP holder and get surprised Pikachu face. And while I sympathise with such teams, I also feel a little bit of online research could've saved them years.

MVG being a youtuber and a developer unfortunately doesn't automatically give him an understanding of what DRM is. If he had that understanding, he wouldn't be wrong in this one instance.

He likely had a general idea of the way the term is used popularly, and thought it would be applicable in this case.

You can be an incredible and wonderful person and yet create something really stupid. That's just human. So again, you're right, I shouldn't have made a personal attack. That was wrong of me.

But I have zero qualms about labelling the content as I did.

 

[eraFROMAN]

A person who doesn't know what DRM is and makes a video with a false premise is a Moron. I'm saying that super calmly, there's no aggression.

Also, the way you've used that word, I don't think you know what irony means.

Edit: Here are some helpful links-

Digital rights management | Copyright Protection, DRM Solutions & Strategies

Digital rights management (DRM), protection of copyrighted works by various means to control or prevent digital copies from being shared over computer networks or telecommunications networks. In response to the explosion of digital content, copyright holders have sought greater protection from...

www.britannica.com

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Click to shrink...

Log off, seriously. MVG works in the industry and knows his shit, much more so than you EVER will.

On topic:

Yeah, the DRM in the Xbox ecosystem is quite heavy; if the console can't do its calls home, whether to DL the rest of the code or to simply authenticate, its pretty awful to use. I HOPE they address this before it becomes a problem when servers are closed, etc, but as it is, BC and everything like that is at the mercy of the Xbox's internet connection.

 

[Deleted member 20831]

Both the consoles have at least one issue for any vintage gamer, PS5 has the CMOS batter replacement issue where it needs to ping Sony servers for data related to trophy timestamps.

 

[jsnepo]

a small price to pay for the superior BC implementation

 

[Meatwad]

You're right. I apologize for my words. MVG isn't a Moron. The video, unfortunately, remains moronic.

Part of the problem is that a lot of people involved in the games industry don't understand legal terms or legal concepts, especially around copyright. Which is why we keep getting all these fan-remakes or fan-games with years of work that get shut down by the original IP holder and get surprised Pikachu face. And while I sympathise with such teams, I also feel a little bit of online research could've saved them years.

MVG being a youtuber and a developer unfortunately doesn't automatically give him an understanding of what DRM is. If he had that understanding, he wouldn't be wrong in this one instance.

He likely had a general idea of the way the term is used popularly, and thought it would be applicable in this case.

You can be an incredible and wonderful person and yet create something really stupid. That's just human. So again, you're right, I shouldn't have made a personal attack. That was wrong of me.

But I have zero qualms about labelling the content as I did.

Click to shrink...

Thank you, that was well put.

 

[Deleted member 46489]

Log off, seriously. MVG works in the industry and knows his shit, much more so than you EVER will.

On topic:

Yeah, the DRM in the Xbox ecosystem is quite heavy; if the console can't do its calls home, whether to DL the rest of the code or to simply authenticate, its pretty awful to use. I HOPE they address this before it becomes a problem when servers are closed, etc, but as it is, BC and everything like that is at the mercy of the Xbox's internet connection.

Click to shrink...

I'm a lawyer who works in the digital space. So unfortunately, you're wrong on that front. I do confess my ignorance about a lot of other things, and he likely knows much more than I do about game development and related stuff. Which is cool.

Just because you share his incorrect understanding of DRM doesn't make it correct. It just makes two people wrong. And it's okay to be wrong. I'm wrong about things all the time. I was wrong right now when I made a personal attack on him. And I apologized. I hope you have a swell day. Cheers.

 

[T0kenAussie]

I gotta say this emergent parasocial relationships thing is equal parts fascinating and frustrating for me. Seems like it's really ratcheted up in all areas of the internet

 

[gothi]

I also have siblings who I wanted to gift my Series X but now not sure. I may have to get them a PS5 since the internet isn't so good where they live. It would be a pain having to deal with DRM and third party games that have weird rules.

Click to shrink...

If the console is set as the 'home' console then the flakey internet issue mostly goes away. A lot of the issues MVG highlighted are caused by losing internet when your Xbox is not set as your 'home' console, that's an unusual situation unless you are game sharing (in which you are aware of the limitations already) or have upgraded from an Xbox One and forgotten to set your new console as your 'home'.
If the internet was down you'd still have issues trying to install BC games or Smart Delivery games that only have the Xbox One version on disc but as time goes by that will be less of an issue.

The issues you called out with third party games exist on PS5 as well, there's no getting away from them.

 

[Irrotational]

The "registration" step involving package header decryption and download of updated metadata is not a new step - this happens to every game on Xbox One and Series X|S; the new aspect is that for back-compat games on Series X|S, we also do a one-time connection to download various compatibility settings and also ensure that the game is patched to a min version (the back-compat team famously spent hundreds of thousands of hours validating every game, but it is not possible to also validate and ensure every version of every game works). This connection is not an attempt at DRM as it'd be a very useless form if it were (unlimited offline play is allowed after registration), but is for technical reasons to ensure a guarantee of compatibility (that we take very seriously).

Apart from this additional step for BC games only, the licensing model on Series X|S has not changed since Xbox One (where it was also essentially the same as on PS4 and PS5).

Having said that, this thread and the video has helped underline that we could be doing a better job in a couple of aspects:
- The error messaging for a variety of licensing errors are too generic and unhelpful. The video showcases multiple different error codes (so I can tell what is actually happening), but the human-readable messages are bad and don't inform or help the user understand the issue. We had already been working on revamping these and this highlights the importance of that effort.
- What is actually a check for the right set of compatibility settings is causing users to hit scenarios where they are not able to play even though they expected otherwise; users shouldn't need to know or care about what "registration" does or when it occurs. There have been discussions internally today on how we could improve this situation without making the compatibility experience worse, and whilst this is not a promise, we have heard and understand the frustration in this feedback and are looking for what we can do to improve the scenario.


I hope a little transparency helps and we really appreciate the feedback (both positive and negative) as it helps us build a better product that better suits the needs of our users.

Click to shrink...

I hope you don't mind me tagging you to say a big thanks to you and the team for all your efforts. The new quick resume group and menu and functionality is a great example of iteration and improvement!

With regards to the offline error messages, you mentioned the codes and knowing what they mean. In the short term is there an official list of the codes and what they mean or how they can be fixed on the support pages?

That way we can start pointing people at it if they're stuck?

Or maybe the solution is always, "sorry, you need to be connected to the internet". Which would be helpful to know at least .

 

[Recycled_SDcard]

Finally they've managed. Using the "backdoor" it seems.

 

[Grazzt]

Log off, seriously. MVG works in the industry and knows his shit, much more so than you EVER will.

Click to shrink...

You seem to take this very personally. Are you ok?

 

[Captain Tuttle]

Lol okay. I liked the first new Doom so this one should be good as well.
I think MSFT as the platform holder should enforce certain rules that Ubisoft has to follow as a third party developer for their platform. I dont think its fair to set such conditions for a user to play offline. But again there's nothing I can do. I think they need to really look into offline play as a whole or the console experience without internet. It will resolve everything to do with DRM etc if they looked at it that way. Users just want to start a game without any interruptions. If they buy a disc game for next gen, they want to insert and play. In the unlikely case that there is a hiccup with the internet, I don't want my console bricked and I can't play offline campaigns. I also have siblings who I wanted to gift my Series X but now not sure. I may have to get them a PS5 since the internet isn't so good where they live. It would be a pain having to deal with DRM and third party games that have weird rules.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure the PS5 is the same way. It's an Ubisoft thing.

I'll gladly be wrong though

 

[Praedyth]

I've just seen the video and remembered there's a thread here. I think this is a big problem that we won't notice until like decades into the future. I was concerned about that when I heard about Smart Delivery on physical games. The OG Xbox One is capped at 50GB discs but the One S/X and Series S/X can do the 100GB discs, so it was kinda expected the OG Xbox One would hold back the game version. I remember discussing with friends on why someone would buy a PS5 disc vs a cheaper PS4 disc (+ digital upgrade) and that's the reason, you would just get the next-gen version in a offline manner. I can see decades in the future people resorting to PS5 discs to get the next-gen version of some cross-gen games.

Does it matter for Xbox gamers? I doubt. I can't see this threatening the preservation of any big exclusive that can only be played on Xbox, so I think they get a pass. I also think most Xbox players consider this a decent trade off for better BC.

Hopefully Microsoft will change its mind, but I don't have much faith since this was their dream since the infamous Xbox One reveal.

 

[Edge]

Can we edit the thread name? That has nothing to do with DRM.

 

[rntongo]

Well in the name of game preservation that's kinda the point. You won't have the internet or servers to connect to.

for the principal of the thing I understand your frustration, but again that's the way Ubisoft coded their game. You probably should stay away from their games going forward as I think they all work that way.

Click to shrink...

Yeah guess I'll stay away from their games for now tbh. Not worth it

I'm pretty sure the PS5 is the same way. It's an Ubisoft thing.

I'll gladly be wrong though

Click to shrink...

Could be the case tbh. Seems its a Ubisoft thing

If the console is set as the 'home' console then the flakey internet issue mostly goes away. A lot of the issues MVG highlighted are caused by losing internet when your Xbox is not set as your 'home' console, that's an unusual situation unless you are game sharing (in which you are aware of the limitations already) or have upgraded from an Xbox One and forgotten to set your new console as your 'home'.
If the internet was down you'd still have issues trying to install BC games or Smart Delivery games that only have the Xbox One version on disc but as time goes by that will be less of an issue.

The issues you called out with third party games exist on PS5 as well, there's no getting away from them.

Click to shrink...

Yeah it just sucks the way some of these companies are moving forward. There's little consideration for people without good internet access. I live in a large metropolitan area in the US and have had two internet outages. Even with my console set as the home console I have to deal with third party devs like Ubisoft. Its such an annoying thing. But I think the best thing for me is to simply not buy/play their games. Crazy because I remember them being one of the best companies out there when they were making Prince of Persia, Splinter Cell, etc.