What difference does it make to his constituents if he's going to vote for the damn bill either way..?
This is true. My main point was rooted in hatred of that stupid Manchin Cycle image and the fact that focusing only on counted votes means we tend to dismiss the negotiation involved before things reach the floor.
Agreed on all counts, but I do still think he plays games.
www.theatlantic.com
You’re right, the only things “team player“ about Manchin are him voting Schumer for leader and him willing to negotiate with Dems. But the default/alternative is Senator Capito from WV who will do neither and vote against almost all Dem bills regardless of negotiation. Heck, Murkowski even submitted an amendment that she worked with Manchin on and got it passed into the bill yet still voted against the final bill.
The worst Democrat is still better than the best Republican.
He can point to it later. Just like Bernie can point to himself fighting to get the $15 back into the bill via amendment, but in the 180° opposite bad way.
so y'all are gonna give leeway to a dude who was being a transphobic piece of shit and dropped the mother of all n bombs in a thread about transphobia. we don't need this Transphobic piece of shit on our forum. Please reconsider I beg of you staff. This doesn't look good at all boss attack has been given many chances on this site and has been banned many times this is not the right choice going forward and hurts the future of the forum. I genuinely worry about the future of era and almost invalidates all of the fightings I had to do for change. I apologize for criticizing this decision but this is a line that should have never crossed where the use of such a vile and hateful word has been used. Please do not do another black chamber this is all I will say on the matter staff please direct message me should you wish to speak to me my dms are always open. This should be a permanent ban.
Also changed the ban reason from-
So, wait, you think there's a real possibility that the first time he sinks a bill is going to be the COVID stimulus/assistance bill that provides millions of Americans with overwhelmingly supported $1400 checks and tons of social safety nets? The one with, what, a 70% approval rating nationwide (checks have 72% approval in WV)? Lol fuck no that is political suicide.
But Manchin can do the exact same thing and still vote for the bill. He can still have the clout of saying he fought for a compromise, even if he didn't get it. But I also don't see how this even helps him in WV. I don't think his constituents are going to give a shit how they got their 1400 dollar checks when it's at (from what I can see) almost 3/4ths approval in WV. How it was done is going to be the last thing on their minds, sounds like they'll just be happy they're getting checks.
This got only got 1 month and had the racism and transphobia tags removed? What is going on..?
How? If there is no fear of him voting against the dems, why not treat him with respect, listen to him, but ultimately overrule him if his demands end up hurting Americans?
Because a nominal give in to demands here means we get considerations on something bigger down the road.
Do you really believe that lol
Yes.
Lmao this isn't good faith. There isn't anything bigger down the road, caving is the only thing Dems can do right.
Caving for literally no fucking reason with no upside and every downside is good faith negotiations? When it's clear as day this clown is going to crawl back and vote for a bill that anyone in their right mind needs to?
HR1.
? If you're confident he will be a team player and vote with dems, caving to him on covid doesn't help here. He's not going to magically cave back because, oh yeah, the dems gave me a bunch of power last time
He could have voted with the GOP on other amendments to make a point, or been less complaint on future votes.
I feel like you would rather shoot the hostage than try and negotiate their release.
Thanks for the article, btw. All we can do is hope, though. And if Manchin fucks us, then we have a large helping of crow while the country disintegrates. Let me say that I fully understand folks' cynicism -- what has Joe Manchin done to earn the benefit of the doubt?
I'm not going to tell you not to be upset or angry.
that is not a sufficient explanation as it doesn't explain in what way these negotiations are good faith. you cant assume every dem operates in good faith unless you think what Manchin voting for an anti trans bill was in good faith. so please explain why these negotiations are in good faith.
Which amendment could he have voted for that would have made a difference? You keep talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't claim he's a team player and simultaneously claim he might suddenly not vote with dems on a major bill.
The fact that you think an apt comparison is a hostage situation says everything.
His voting history, the article I linked and his comments and party talks with him point towards that.
I'm not even joking when I say that Harry Enten is probably writing that piece as we speak, and I will definitely read it closely.
I totally get that. I'd promise WV a brand new military base, and I'd personally drive down and salute Fort Manchin if it meant HR1 passed. I think it's arguable that Manchin plays games, and his character sheet literally says: "Level 20 Politician."
Look this is how the sausage is made.
Yes, Sinema is the one I am genuinely unsure of.
You just ignored my entire post. I guess this is pointless..
If people are genuinely afraid of him swinging right and voting for a bunch of republican shit, at least say that. I keep being told he's a reliable team player, a democrat for a reason, though. When that is clearly bullshit
This is negotiating surfinn. The democratic party is a good faith based group who tries to build a consensus. They all understand that senators have different views and needs. We are not a narrow minded cult of personality. We are a big tent.
www.theatlantic.com
You still haven't addressed your contradiction of claiming he's a reliable dem vote, a "dem for a reason", yet are worried he'll fuck dems over down the line on major bills. At least just be honest instead of trying to have it both ways, which is nonsense. Manchin is the fucking opposite of good faith, and if you're relying on him returning goodwill down the line, you're a fool
You can be a team player because your side respects you and helps you out.
Let me try to restate what I think TheHunter is saying.
