Mortal Kombat and the Consistency of Violence

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
10,442
This is something that's been bothering me ever since Mortal Kombat really came into its own on 3D and I think in finally talking about it with people I figured out why.

A pre-emptive clarification to folks who aren't going to read my OP yet again that I understand Mortal Kombat is not to be taken seriously. The depravity of the violence is so physically impossible and so punctuated by visual and auditory gags at every turn that it all ceases to really be morally concerning. I mean hell, my mom played it back when her hands were good; who cares, right?

But even then ever since X-Ray moves came into the picture and the rendering of bone and blood got photorealistic I couldn't help but always cock my head and even cringe at the whole show. I'd habitually joke with friends at the character reveal trailers for 11 that "Alright, there has to be a limit." And I was wondering whether or not this was it. "Am I getting...old?!" Am I becoming the enemy I fought in my teens; an old fuddy-duddy with conservative sensibilities towards insensitive media?! Am I fated to be a product of my time?! Oh no!

But no, I don't think so (yet). While Ermac's intestinal Fatality in the last one makes me gag I don't really have this drive to censor Mortal Kombat. Indeed, I was mad when the DC crossover neutered it. I instead have a drive to fix it for the betterment of humanity. The problem?

The effects of the violence are inconsistent and it's confusing to me.

Yes, I expect my gore-fests to be held to the highest of standards. Don't you just throw any ol' murder spree at me.

Here's what I mean. The old Mortal Kombat games had a distinctive line between normal damage-dealing moves and the actual Fatalities. Every normal or special would either knock a character into the air, cause them to stumble backwards, stand there dizzy, or fall over spread eagle like a Home Alone character. Some blood would splatter too of course. Gotta have the blood. It didn't actually matter what the move was or whether weapons were involved. What mattered was the effect on the character. A stumble or a fall? Obviously not fatal.

Then, there was the Fatality. The victor approaches the victim and suddenly something different happens. They light on fire, or get decapitated, or they're plunged into a spike pit, or they blow up. It's something really flashy and different from the rest of the normal moves in part because of the effect on the body. Like...that fool is dead. Like... dead dead. Yeah, I know, an uppercut that sends you two stories upwards should in reality just decapitate you instead, but...their skin is gone. They're dead. Holy crap.

In short, old school Mortal Kombat was consistent, and it contextualized the violence better by having a distinct line between what was and wasn't fatal through the consequences on the characters.

Now? Who needs even that level of internal logical when you've got radical computer-generated imagery son! Let's send this spear through this character's eye and skull as a basic special in the middle of the fight! But then let's have a Fatality that...sends something through a character's eye and then...they die from it? Wait... what?

Why? What's the difference? Why did this flashy move not kill them but this one did?

There's this sort of Uncanny Valley-ness to the whole thing as a result and it doesn't work as well to me. Originally I thought it was because of the disparity between the realism of the gore and the impossibility of the moves themselves. Now, that kind of weirds me out too, not so much in a pearl-clutching sense but rather in the fact that I don't know how I'm supposed to feel about a head getting sliced up in midair being simultaneously framed like a Renaissance painting. It's confusing and weird.

But no, that's not it. I lean towards being able to allow violence in this manner, but I think it loses its kick, or even becomes stupid, when honestly the X-Ray moves are kind of the same thing?.... I mean, I lightly bruised my ribs before from capoeira practice and couldn't move easily. You zoom in with an X-Ray camera breaking literally all of the ribs in multiple places and expect me to believe the character is going to get up ready to keep going, especially when I know 30 seconds later that character is going to go through some sort of ridiculous set of moves and die from it that time?

New school Mortal Kombat has less consistency in regards to what will and won't kill the characters because it relegates flashy, cringe-inducing moves to both mid-game specials and game-ending Fatalities while using a more photorealistic visual style that naturally invites a higher bar of suspension of disbelief, thus causing a dissonance in how the violence is supposed to work within the universe.

My fix? Just... take out X-Ray moves I guess (will never happen). Or have the X-Ray moves actually gimp a player for a little bit (also will never happen, and will cause rage a la Smash Bros. tripping). Granted, this is all a topic about what is ultimately a little issue in the grand scheme. But yeah, I wrote all this to tell y'all Mortal Kombat finally became dumb to me. Not because it was ever particularly intelligent or high brow. But because, either due to technological limitations, conscious effort, or both, it had a set of rules for its violence that were more clearly defined than they are now simply because the developers are more in love with the ability to have higher graphical fidelity.

So yeah. Just had to get that one out.

Uh. I don't know how to end this, so uhm.... I'll just say Jax is the best!
 

Musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,926
Yeah, you're not wrong the inconsistency with what proves to be "fatal" is really all over the place with the last few games.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
9,766
Similar thesis to this previous thread. I don't like the absurd violence in general, so I suppose that line doesn't affect me much. A straight up fatality is just as stupid to me as seeing someone clearly die during a super, get back up and dust themselves off. I can't take any of it seriously.
 

Gunslinger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,401
X-rays Or fatal blow is MK version of supers. It’s on other fgs too. Think about ryu in vs games or sf games. His shinku Hadoken is just a massive beam of plasma which should melt his opponents but they just shrug it off like it’s nothing. These are just fighting games and they are not meant to be realistic. Same in old MK when scorpion stab someone with a spear or Liu Kang Throw a fireball but they shrug it off.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,209
It's just there to be cool. It's not supposed to be realistic. Most video games have characters that keep on being fine after things that would horribly maim them in real life, if not kill them. You can get shot like 20 times in some shooters and keep on sprinting.
 

Toriko

Member
Dec 29, 2017
5,017
I agree. The x Ray moves are silly, time consuming and deter from actually making the fatalities special.
 

DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,485
Completely agree.

Half of the X-rays (or whatever their MK11 equivalents are called) involve something sharp going through someone's head and coming out the other side, and it always weirds me out when they keep fighting.

Like, the moment that you accept the fact that sharp objects can penetrate someone's skull and go straight through the brain, and that they can die from this in Fatalities, I'm just left wondering why they don't always die from it.
 

BackwardCap

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,906
Interesting that the super moves aptly named "Fatal Blows" are not actually fatal. Even if it completely deplete your opponents health, you still need to FINISH THEM! so it's weird.
 

Toriko

Member
Dec 29, 2017
5,017
X-rays Or fatal blow is MK version of supers. It’s on other fgs too. Think about ryu in vs games or sf games. His shinku Hadoken is just a massive beam of plasma which should melt his opponents but they just shrug it off like it’s nothing. These are just fighting games and they are not meant to be realistic. Same in old MK when scorpion stab someone with a spear or Liu Kang Throw a fireball but they shrug it off.
I think the OP is saying with more realistic dismemberment it stands out. Shooting a fireball and the opponent getting up in old Mk games was not jarring. However throwing a spear multiple times through the eye and ribs and showing them break in slow motion only for the character to get up is jarring. It completely kills the impact not just of the move but also of the fatalities.
 
OP
OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
10,442
These are just fighting games and they are not meant to be realistic.
. It's not supposed to be realistic.
Realistic =/= consistency.

Imagine for a moment you have a photorealistic Wile E. Coyote cartoon. Literally realistic looking coyote trying to get a realistic Roadrunner and using all of the same malfunctioning gadgets and stuff. So long as the realistic coyote suffered consistent consequences, it would be fine. A little weird, but fine.

Now, imagine a normal, traditionally-animated Chuck Jones Wile E. Coyote cartoon where he falls off a cliff like normal in one scene, then the next time he falls from that same height in the same consequences he's a garbled mess of bone and blood, or at the very least he dies and you see his ghost rise to heaven. You would say "What the fuck?"

It's not the visual style that's the issue (although it does take away some of the impact). It's the consistency of the rules established that either makes or breaks an obviously fictional work.
 

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
Even if we're meant to believe every character is as durable as Marv from Sin City or Max Payne—who can canonically survive being shot with a gun ten times or more—the special moves exceed even their limits and I would agree they definitely lessen the impact of fatalities a lot of the time.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,497
Columbia, SC
Shit started to become inconsistent when MK4 added bone breakers. Couple of them are straight up moves that should outright kill the victim like completely breaking a person's neck.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,373
I've heard similar points made with the increase in violence on other fronts, such as x-rays and fatal blows, taking away from the impact of fatalities. It's a fair way to feel about it. To me, so far, NRS as proven to still be creative in their depictions of over the top violence, with their fatalities still coming with the shock factor as they're continuing to out do themselves with every iteration. Some fatalities are a hit or a miss, and perhaps you make a point when I look at Jade shoving a pole through someone's eye socket, cut them in half with intestines hanging out and all I think is "meh".

Perhaps there is a limit. Especially now that we've hit the level of visual fidelity as you have said. The next MK game could very much run into this issue. But who knows. The creative spirit of thinking up how many different ways we can mutilate the body proves to be impressive to me still.
 

Hailinel

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
32,719
X-rays Or fatal blow is MK version of supers. It’s on other fgs too. Think about ryu in vs games or sf games. His shinku Hadoken is just a massive beam of plasma which should melt his opponents but they just shrug it off like it’s nothing. These are just fighting games and they are not meant to be realistic. Same in old MK when scorpion stab someone with a spear or Liu Kang Throw a fireball but they shrug it off.
The point is that the old games didn't feature graphic, obviously fatal skull-smashing, back shattering, gut-tearing attacks depicted in insanely graphic detail. They may as well be Fatalities.
 

Aftermath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,756
i look at it like it’s a more supernatural or comicbooky game now, or rather cartoony especially since they have moved away from the digitising from the first three, oh How I loved the look of that HD remake of those until they pulled the plug.

Now MK is just well kind of like itchy & scratchy or tom & jerry, or a loony tunes game, i.e when the characters get the equivalent to a anvil in the face or a dynamite stick blow them up, they just immediately get back up and get back on with it and i’m fine with that cartoony over the top extremeness, afterall you see similar sorta zanieness like I said on the simpsons for example where itchy has ripped the entire skeleton out of scratchy for example and thats on a kids show.

And I am talking about the X-rays there too.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,348
Agreed. The fatal blows look too much like fatalities and not like super moves. They should have been more in line with how they were in Injustice.
 
OP
OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
10,442
Now MK is just well kind of like itchy & scratchy or tom & jerry, or a loony tunes game, i.e when the characters get the equivalent to a anvil in the face or a dynamite stick blow them up, they just immediately get back up and get back on with it and i’m fine with that cartoony over the top extremeness
Again, the unrealistic violence isn't really bothering me because MK was always impossible. The uppercuts alone were ridiculous (and amazing).

What bothers me is that there is no clear-cut line delineating what is and isn't supposed to truly hurt or kill a character. It's just a jumbled mess.

Even Tom and Jerry and Looney Tunes cartoons had rules regarding characterization, the effects of certain gags, and even the frame-by-frame timing of gags that the animators had to follow in order for the cartoons to make sense, not be horrifying, and not have the protagonists be thoroughly unlikeable. Their production was actually fascinating in that regard.

New school Mortal Kombat doesn't appear to have that level of care with regards to how violence works in its universe. You get killed when you get killed; there's no bite to them anymore because there are no rules anymore. When everything is fatal, a Fatality isn't all that special.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Moderator
Oct 28, 2017
7,281
I think the violence could work if whatever energy it is that the characters use actually could power up/move body parts by themselves even if they're broken like what happens in some action anime. Then they'd die from fatalities due to being exhausted already. But that clearly doesn't happen considering the story cutscenes where wounds seem to work like one would expect.
 

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
There's also the matter that the games have made fatalities so much more elaborate to compensate that sometimes I think they're just too nonsensical. Like why would some of the characters actually create the skin and gore art pieces they do in their fatalities?

I think it'd be awesome to more often return to the basic, klassic fatalities and make them as gross as possible with modern graphics. Depict the most brutal, realistic possible results of simple stuff like Kano's heart rip and Scorpion's fire breath with all the burnt flesh, gushing internals, and screams of agony that might entail.
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,116
Don't know what you're expecting. It's a video game where you fight the undead, gods, robots, insects, etc. You're also shooting fireballs, acid, bullets, Spears, etc into people and they shrug it off like it's nothing.

Just seems dumb to me to complain about x-rays/fatal blows. Like the other thread where that YouTuber was complaining about fatalities lmao
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,373
I feel like the x-rays of MK9 were actually a nice balance for MK's supers. At least some of them were, anyway. Some involved simple attacks with fists and kicks, that although involved displayed the breaking of bones, you could at least tell yourself that they're simply exaggerations of those attacks to create the impact a super should have.

Kung Lao kneeing you in the face and you see your skull crack, I feel like you can make yourself think it's an exaggeration of taking a knee to the face. Kung Lao shoving his buzzsaw hat into your skull and watching it shred through it in what is just the super? That's when lines begin to blur too much. MKX was when the x-rays started getting overboard, until MK11 dumped them for shit that should just kill you. Like a giant spike the size of your face getting shoved into your skull that happens in multiple fatal blows.
 

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
17,914
Honestly, that and how fatalities keep getting longer and more complex is diminishing their impact. Many fatalities in MK11 just don't flow well, because they're forced to overdo them to try to make it obvious this isn't a fatal blow.
 

DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,485
I feel like the x-rays of MK9 were actually a nice balance for MK's supers. At least some of them were, anyway. Some involved simple attacks with fists and kicks, that although involved the breaking of phones, you could at least tell yourself that they're simply exaggerations of those attacks to create the impact a super should have.
Those still had problems.

I always gave MK9 the side-eye when Sub-Zero would freeze and rip out a dude's liver in Round 1 and then freeze and rip out the same liver that magically grew back later.
 

DoubleTake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,881
You're completely right and from a purely gameplay and balancing standpoint I really do not like Fatal Blows. The Krushing blows are fine mechanically but, to your point, are indeed dumb when fatalities exist. I think you answered the question. MK's violence has always been seen as over the top and "whatever' and so this has allowed the devs to go ham and do crazy shit because "hey its just crazy MK violence". The inconsistency doesnt bother me too much but you are right. Especially about Jax.
 

rawhide

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,867
The very fact that they're called "Fatal Blows" should tip you off to the fact that they're lampshading the absurdity of the violence. They get it, you don't.
 

TheStebe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
945
London
I think the more realistic graphics have become the more netherrealm goes to the plain of bonkers and crazy ott violence thats not to be taken seriously when as before a simple head rip with its spine seemed absolutley disgusting since we never seen anything like that in a game before.

Its i think how can we get more creative without making it too realistic even though it sure as hell is with all the bits coming out from everywhere
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,373
Those still had problems.

I always gave MK9 the side-eye when Sub-Zero would freeze and rip out a dude's liver in Round 1 and then freeze and rip out the same liver that magically grew back later.
Well, like I said in the post , "at least some of them were, anyway". A balance is possible. It's just that NRS doesn't quite care to achieve it because it has proven that people like this shit cranked up to 11 and beyond.
 
OP
OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
10,442
The very fact that they're called "Fatal Blows" should tip you off to the fact that they're lampshading the absurdity of the violence. They get it, you don't.
Lampshading an already ironic and over-the-top franchise is...just dumb. Only Jack Thompson took MK seriously.
 

OldDirtyGamer

Member
Apr 14, 2019
1,594
That would be another option. Just bring that back.

And Animalities. I want Polar Bear Sub-Zero back, goddammit!
Brutalities are in the game. I would have loved full fan service. Anamalities, Babalities, Friendships. All that. Actual secrets during fighting. Remember all the rumors that used to come from MK? Make em real.

Not just grind the game to get koins and hope for something cool in the Krypt.
 

TubaZef

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,702
Brazil
I agree with the op that it's confusing to have moves that look fatal but aren't, the ones in MK11 could pretty much just be fatalities.

However, they are consistent with the tone of the game, everything is over the top for comical reasons and I think the x-rays (or whatever they are called now) in 11 fit the game much better than the ones in X and 9 which were mostly just really strong punches and kicks that could break bones.
Ed Boon has said in interviews that they always try to make fatalities the more over-the-top they can and one big reason is that people won't try to recreate them, making x-rays more exaggerated could be related to that. Not that people had tried to replicate x-ray moves but they were too tame and realistic in previous games.

Easier solution here is indeed to remove x-rays and turn them into fatalities or brutalities, but then you would be removing one big feature from the game. It's a game design and art-direction problem, not something easy to solve.
 
Last edited:

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,907
JP
Maybe if they were aiming for realism, but they're not. An uppercut still sends you 4 meters into the air while you lose a liter of blood.
 
OP
OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
10,442
Brutalities are in the game. I would have loved full fan service. Anamalities, Babalities, Friendships. All that. Actual secrets during fighting. Remember all the rumors that used to come from MK? Make em real.

Not just grind the game to get koins and hope for something cool in the Krypt.
I think in the era of datamining, rumors and secrets from those old arcade machines are done. People would just ruin it. But yes, bring back those weird Fatalities too!

Maybe if they were aiming for realism, but they're not.
Good thing I didn't ask for realism.
 

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
If you're going to lampshade you can't be suspending belief at max volume all of the time. You at least need to dial it back to like a 7 or an 8 sometimes, but the violence in modern MK is always at like a 9 or a 10. Staying at one or two decibels isn't clever.
 

TubaZef

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,702
Brazil
Brutalities are in the game. I would have loved full fan service. Anamalities, Babalities, Friendships. All that. Actual secrets during fighting. Remember all the rumors that used to come from MK? Make em real.

Not just grind the game to get koins and hope for something cool in the Krypt.
They already made them real, a lot of the characters started as fake rumors that the team decided to put in the game. Sadly I don't see that happening nowadays.
But yeah, I miss Friendships, they would be amazing with current 3D technology.
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,512
Again, the unrealistic violence isn't really bothering me because MK was always impossible. The uppercuts alone were ridiculous (and amazing).

What bothers me is that there is no clear-cut line delineating what is and isn't supposed to truly hurt or kill a character. It's just a jumbled mess.
There is a line:

Fatalities will always remove or separate body parts.

In the MK universe, punctures and broken bones do not kill. Characters only die when body parts are removed.
 
OP
OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
10,442
There is a line:

Fatalities will always remove or separate body parts.

In the MK universe, punctures and broken bones do not kill. Characters only die when body parts are removed.
Someone already said there's a special move that removes your liver though. x.x
 

Vilam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,254
Yeah, no - I don't care about logic in Mortal Kombat. I just want to see cool looking gruesome moves. The more the better.
 

Acido

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,067
I remember that bothering me a little when they introduced the X-rays, but I got over it. Something you should consider is that fighting games have a very important audience in streamers and competitive tournaments. And in those cases you're almost never going to see fatalities take place because they're not necessary to win. So what did Netherrealm did? Implement them in the actual fights. I am ok with it now because they've replaced the shock of pure violence with just clever design. They still surprise you with the camera work, with comedy, with lore... I think fatalities are still special, and they don't need it to be consistent with the actual fights at all.
 

Cyberclops

Member
Mar 15, 2019
1,196
While the fatal blows are a bit excessive, I feel like the fatalities are at least consistently more excessive. The key difference is that in a fatality, the opponent's body is irreversibly maimed (limbs cut off, dissolved, etc). Also, Scorpion's been shoving spears through stomachs and Sub-Zero's been flash freezing people since the first game.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,928
I don’t know. Honestly I think it’s mainly the absurd lack of logic that defines the violence that allows me not to be disgusted by it. The only reason I don’t feel like a sadistic asshole playing and enjoying these games that at a quick superficial glance might seem like torture porn for lunatics is truly because it’s all clearly moronic nonsense.
 

SinkFla

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,377
Pensacola, Fl
Every response you've given to someone else telling you in their opinion the answer to your question is coming off very dismissive, OP.

I mean, even back during the early mk days do you really think anyone would survive a spear burrowing through their neck/torso and being violently pulled 20 feet at an impossibly high rate of speed? Or to be frozen to a point where you're a human glacier in under a second?

I don't really understand the inconsistencies you perceive. Are all attacks/supers equally lethal? Well no, because they want different characters and their movesets to stand out.

Plain and simple (and in my opinion):
The violence even from early MK to now actually is fairly consistent within the confines of its own universe. You know what isn't consistent? Kano balls. Only motherfucker in Earthrealm who can blanka ball his way to victory.