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Subutai

Metal Face DOOM
Member
Oct 25, 2017
937
At the very least, it seems, this was a decent shooting. IMO this should always be what a gun owner does, call the cops first and if you can, announce yourself to them that you have a gun which you would think 9 times out of 10 they would leave at that point. It should only be used as a last resort.
 
OP
OP
F34R

F34R

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,990
Gun owners are responsible until they're not. They are all human and fallible. Your kids are at a greater risk of accidental gun death than mine are. Your kids are more likely to use a gun for suicide than my kids. All on the merit of having them in the house.

Also, a quote from a Coates blog from 2012 "But the fear (of home invasion) is also easily out of proportion to the threat. I had the Chicago police run the number on homicides. In 2011, precisely one homicide listed "burglary" as the motive. Nationwide, there are about 100 burglary-homicides every year. When you compare that to more than 18,000 gun suicides, the conclusions seem pretty obvious."

https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...-the-irrational-fear-of-home-invasion/266613/

There is plenty, but for a start you could get in an actual situation you need to use it and shoot a family member instead.

And just because rules are in place doesn't mean accidents won't happen.

Do you seriously not hear the news of kids killing with their parents guns? That happens way more than this story here.
With what ya'll are saying, I'm ok with that risk.
 

Xe4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,295
Of course there is a fringe use case for firearms. This situation is one of them. Glad she's safe.

But the endless cycle of tragedy perpetuated by american gun culture isn't remotely worth the sporadic incident of them being used for actual good. That's kind of the point. But then again, I live in a country where police would be on my doorstep in <5-10 minutes at all times and guns are extremely rare even among criminals.
Yep. Glad things worked out in this case but it doesn't change the fact that owning a gun is more dangerous than not.

For every case like this you'll have two where an argument escalates to deadly force cause someone had a gun and 3-4 more where someone commits suicide because of easy access to a gun. You just don't see those paraded around every time they happen.

It's an awful situation, so I can't really blame people for owning a firearm for self defense regardless of what the statistics say. I understand the need for self defense but ultimately it floods the market with more guns which makes violence and situations like this worse. It's a never ending cycle that kills tens of thousands every year, and made worse by politicians lobbied by the NRA.
 

Hoo-doo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,292
The Netherlands
With what ya'll are saying, I'm ok with that risk.

I mean, it's the lives of you and your family. Do what you feel. Everyone always thinks they are a responsible gun owner right up until the point where shit happens. Either a lapse of judgement, mental breakdown or an accident.
Statistically you and your family are at an increased risk of getting shot/killed merely by having a gun in the house.
 

smellyjelly

Avenger
Aug 2, 2018
774
I wouldn't let them in. They broke the door down?

I would comply with the demands of an unstable criminal once they broke my door down.

I'm also not concerned with that happening.
sure, it's most likely never going to happen. but just because it's unlikely doesn't mean it won't. shit happens to everyone, every day.

complying with the demands of an unstable criminal? you don't know what their intent is. in this case, it wasn't a robbery. letting a violent criminal into your home, unaware of their intent for you or your family is the most naive fuckin' thing i've ever heard. at some point despite how shitty the situation is, you have to put the well-being of your family above yours and protect them. it doesn't have to be a gun, but it should be something.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
What statistic are you using?

"Having a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Guns kept in the home are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal unintentional shooting, criminal assault or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense. Rather than conferring protection, guns in the home are associated with an increased risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance."

"Research published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that living in a home where there are guns increased risk of homicide by 40 to 170% and the risk of suicide by 90 to 460%."

"Another study in the Annals of Emergency Medicine similarly found that people who keep a gun in their home are almost twice as likely to die in a gun-related homicide and 16 times more likely to use a gun to commit suicide than people without a gun in their home. ((Douglas Wiebe, Homicide and Suicide Risks Associated with Firearms in the Home: A National Case-control Study, 41 Annals of Emergency Medicine 771 (June 2003). "

"The risk of dying from an unintentional gunshot injury is 3.7 times higher for adults living in homes with guns, with handguns in the home posing a particular threat."

From https://lawcenter.giffords.org/guns-in-the-homesafe-storage-statistics/
 

Xe4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,295
What statistic are you using?
Basically any peer reviewed study ever done on the issue. It's why Republicans are so desperate to stop the CDC from doing gun violence research

To steal a post I made a while back:

This paper, published in the New England Journal of Medicine explains:
In 2005, the most recent year for which mortality data are available, suicide was the second-leading cause of death among Americans 40 years of age or younger. Among Americans of all ages, more than half of all suicides are gun suicides. In 2005, an average of 46 Americans per day committed suicide with a firearm, accounting for 53% of all completed suicides. Gun suicide during this period accounted for 40% more deaths than gun homicide.
Why might the availability of firearms increase the risk of suicide in the United States? First, many suicidal acts; one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies; are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour.

Second, many suicidal crises are self-limiting. Such crises are often caused by an immediate stressor, such as the breakup of a romantic relationship, the loss of a job, or a run-in with police. As the acute phase of the crisis passes, so does the urge to attempt suicide. The temporary nature and fleeting sway of many suicidal crises is evident in the fact that more than 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt, including attempts that were expected to be lethal (such as shooting oneself in the head or jumping in front of a train), do not go on to die by suicide. Indeed, recognizing the self-limiting nature of suicidal crises, penal and psychiatric institutions restrict access to lethal means for persons identified as potentially suicidal.
Third, guns are common in the United States (more than one third of U.S. households contain a firearm) and are lethal. A suicide attempt with a firearm rarely affords a second chance. Attempts involving drugs or cutting, which account for more than 90% of all suicidal acts, prove fatal far less often.

The empirical evidence linking suicide risk in the United States to the presence of firearms in the home is compelling. There are at least a dozen U.S. Case control studies in the peer-reviewed literature, all of which have found that a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of suicide. The increase in risk is large, typically 2 to 10 times that in homes without guns, depending on the sample population (e.g., adolescents vs. older adults) and on the way in which the firearms were stored. The association between guns in the home and the risk of suicide is due entirely to a large increase in the risk of suicide by firearm that is not counterbalanced by a reduced risk of nonfirearm suicide. Moreover, the increased risk of suicide is not explained by increased psychopathologic characteristics, suicidal ideation, or suicide attempts among members of gun-owning households.

But the effect on public health does not end with suicides, as seen by this paper and others:
The association between higher household gun ownership rates and higher overall homicide rates is robust. Regressions were driven neither by either the most populous states nor by the states with the most extreme rates of gun ownership. Overall, the results obtained when we analyzed all 50 states and the 40 least and 40 most populous states were equivalent to those obtained when analyses excluded the 10 states most extreme in [firearm suicide rates] (i.e., the 5 states with the highest [firearm suicide rates] and the 5 states with the lowest [firearm suicide rates]). The firearm homicide association remained significant even when state-level analyses controlled for rates of poverty, urbanization, unemployment, per capita alcohol consumption, and violent crimes other than homicide (i.e.,aggravated assault, forcible rape, and robbery).

In fact, the cross-sectional association between rates of firearm ownership and homicide victimization was so stable over time that regressions across states in any given year produced point estimates that were within 8% of the point estimate obtained when all 10 years of data were analyzed. The association between household firearm ownership rates and homicide rates held for virtually all age groups and was particularly strong for adults aged 25 years and older
Case-control studies suggest that the presence of a gun in the home substantially increases the risk of suicide and homicide among women and among adults. These findings are consistent with those of others, suggesting that the purchase of a handgun is associated with an increased risk of suicide and homicide among adults and an increased risk of suicide among adolescents. Cross-sectional and interrupted time series studies suggest a link between the availability of guns and rates of suicide and homicide among adults and with the rate of unintentional firearm deaths among children and adults.
Case-control studies of household gun ownership and violent deaths provide useful, individual-level information about context; interrupted time series studies help control for many unobserved time-invariant confounders. These studies, however, have been geographically limited. In addition, case-control studies have not accounted for the risk associated with gun availability in the larger community. For example, case-control studies have been unable to take into account how having gun-owning neighbors might deter would-be murderers from preying on members of a community or, alternatively, how an armed neighbor might turn an otherwise nonlethal argument into a fatal one.
...
If, as has been suggested for adolescents and adults generally, suicides and homicides among women are commonly impulsive acts, the easier it is to find lethal means, such as firearms, the more suicides and homicides there might be. On the other hand, if the choice of firearm has less to do with the availability of the weapon than with the strength of the intent, persons determined to kill others or themselves will work harder to get a gun where guns are less available or will substitute other lethal means. Consistent with some, but not all, previous studies among US adults, we found that not only firearm-related suicide rates, but also overall suicide rates, were significantly associated with state and regional gun levels. The increase in overall suicide rates associated with greater firearm availability, together with our finding of a small but significant inverse relationship between nonfirearm suicide rates and relative gun availability, suggests that substitution of equally lethal means for guns appears to occur, but does so incompletely.

The increased rate of homicide in states with high gun levels was accounted for primarily by significantly elevated firearm homicide rates (Table 2), although the rate of nonfirearm homicide was also elevated to a lesser extent. The disproportionately high level of firearm related (compared to nonfirearm-related) homicide in states (and regions) where guns are more available suggests that where there are more guns, regardless of the baseline level of nongun homicide, violence is more likely to turn lethal.
http://link.springer.com.nmt.idm.oclc.org/article/10.1093/jurban/79.1.26

Guns also constitute by far the largest cause of homicide in America and have a disproportionate effect on minority communities.

A paper published by the NCBI states:
Homicide is seven times as common among U.S. non-Hispanic Black as among non-Hispanic White youth ages 15 to 24 years. In 83% of these youth homicides, the murder weapon is a firearm. Yet, for more than a decade, the national public health position on youth violence has been largely silent about the role of firearms, and tools used by public health professionals to reduce harm from other potential hazards have been unusable where guns are concerned. This deprives already underserved populations from the full benefits public health agencies might be able to deliver. In part, political prohibitions against research about direct measures of firearm control and the absence of valid public health surveillance are responsible. More refined epidemiologic theories as well as traditional public health methods are needed if the U.S. aims to reduce disparate Black-White youth homicide rates.
 
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Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,033
Lol I'm for gun control, heavily, but this post has to be some sort of a joke, right? Swing a bat at an intruder and you'll be faced with three possible outcomes

1) They grab the bat from you because it's a melee weapon, and use it against you

2) They shoot you in the face

3) You land a single good blow, ok, now what? They're on the ground reaching in their pockets, are you gonna bash their brains in?

As someone who has seen people get hit with baseball bats full force and whose brother was knocked out by a golf club, your scenario isn't realistic.

If they get hit in the face with a bat, they likely aren't getting up. Besides being concussed, odds are an orbital or jaw is broken.

Now, if they have a gun, you probably won't get the chance to hit them. I'm not saying that bats are superior to guns in any way for defense but one good hit is all you need with a bat. They aren't going to be doing much after that in most circumstances.
 
OP
OP
F34R

F34R

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,990
I mean, it's the lives of you and your family. Do what you feel. Everyone always thinks they are a responsible gun owner right up until the point where shit happens. Either a lapse of judgement, mental breakdown or an accident.
Statistically you and your family are at an increased risk of getting shot/killed merely by having a gun in the house.
I understand that point of view, and I've taken plenty of things int account regarding that. The guns aren't accessible by my kids. They aren't loaded, and the ammo is in a different safe. If that guy was at my house, like in the video, I'd have time to retrieve the gun, ammo, and be ready if he got in before the police arrived.

I'd rather that, than be at their mercy when they get in.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
What do the statistics look like for people who lock their firearms in biometric safes that make them impossible for literally anyone else to access, including and especially kids, I wonder?

Higher than those without guns, due to human failure. Forgetting to lock safely, alcohol/other impairment, accidental firing after unlocked, failure to correctly identify a threat, etc...

Are the odds of successfully fending off a burglar reduced at all when properly stored? People using paranoia to justify those risks might also be less likely to do things that would render their gun less useful in said circumstance.
 
OP
OP
F34R

F34R

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,990
It's clear you have a pro-gun stance.

What were you attempting to highlight exactly by sharing this thread?
It's not simply "pro-gun". This thread shows a responsible person, calling 911, warning someone, and only using the weapon when there was a legitimate danger to her life and her kids. What's wrong with that?
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
I understand that point of view, and I've taken plenty of things int account regarding that. The guns aren't accessible by my kids. They aren't loaded, and the ammo is in a different safe. If that guy was at my house, like in the video, I'd have time to retrieve the gun, ammo, and be ready if he got in before the police arrived.

I'd rather that, than be at their mercy when they get in.
I takes me a second to bust into your place. You wouldn't have time to ready yourself. This intruder was an idiot. She had time to boil a bucket of water and burn his damn face off.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
It's not simply "pro-gun". This thread shows a responsible person, calling 911, warning someone, and only using the weapon when there was a legitimate danger to her life and her kids. What's wrong
with that?

Nothing wrong with that. Are you saying you honestly had no further point to make?
 
OP
OP
F34R

F34R

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,990
"Having a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Guns kept in the home are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal unintentional shooting, criminal assault or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense. Rather than conferring protection, guns in the home are associated with an increased risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance."

"Research published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that living in a home where there are guns increased risk of homicide by 40 to 170% and the risk of suicide by 90 to 460%."

"Another study in the Annals of Emergency Medicine similarly found that people who keep a gun in their home are almost twice as likely to die in a gun-related homicide and 16 times more likely to use a gun to commit suicide than people without a gun in their home. ((Douglas Wiebe, Homicide and Suicide Risks Associated with Firearms in the Home: A National Case-control Study, 41 Annals of Emergency Medicine 771 (June 2003). "

"The risk of dying from an unintentional gunshot injury is 3.7 times higher for adults living in homes with guns, with handguns in the home posing a particular threat."

From https://lawcenter.giffords.org/guns-in-the-homesafe-storage-statistics/

Basically any peer reviewed study ever done on the issue. It's why Republicans are so desperate to stop the CDC from doing gun violence research

To steal a post I made a while back:

This paper, published in the New England Journal of Medicine explains:


But the effect on public health does not end with suicides, as seen by this paper and others:


http://link.springer.com.nmt.idm.oclc.org/article/10.1093/jurban/79.1.26

Guns also constitute by far the largest cause of homicide in America and have a disproportionate effect on minority communities.

A paper published by the NCBI states:

Yeah, I understand that information. I'm not too worried about it.
 

Terminus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,874
Higher than those without guns, due to human failure. Forgetting to lock safely, alcohol/other impairment, accidental firing after unlocked, failure to correctly identify a threat, etc...

Are the odds of successfully fending off a burglar reduced at all when properly stored? People using paranoia to justify those risks might also be less likely to do things that would render their gun less useful in said circumstance.

Undeniably so, yet nevertheless far, far lower than any statistic that includes the scores of unbelievably irresponsible people who do dumb shit like just keeping a handgun in the side table or letting their kids know the combination to the gun safe.

It truly is not difficult to keep something locked in a box at home except for brief interludes where it is transferred directly to a smaller locked box that remains on your person at all times until you arrive at a designated place for taking the thing out of the locked box.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
I understand that point of view, and I've taken plenty of things int account regarding that. The guns aren't accessible by my kids. They aren't loaded, and the ammo is in a different safe. If that guy was at my house, like in the video, I'd have time to retrieve the gun, ammo, and be ready if he got in before the police arrived.

I'd rather that, than be at their mercy when they get in.

Chances are if someone wanted to break into your home you would not have time to ready your firearm because you've stored it the way you have.

Undeniably so, yet nevertheless far, far lower than any statistic that includes the scores of unbelievably irresponsible people who do dumb shit like just keeping a handgun in the side table or letting their kids know the combination to the gun safe.

Idd.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
It's not simply "pro-gun". This thread shows a responsible person, calling 911, warning someone, and only using the weapon when there was a legitimate danger to her life and her kids. What's wrong with that?

This was model use, absolutely. But it perpetuates an unsafe culture in the name of something incredibly rare that most people will never have to worry about. I view it in the same light as Trump holding up an illegal immigrant who murders someone as justifying some of his disgusting stances. It happens, and that sucks, but you shouldn't let that fear, that outlier, influence you. People (NRA in this case) will attempt to use that outlier to push their own agenda, regardless of overall harm to society by doing so.

I would certainly say your kids are at less risk than most gun owner's kids, given the precautions you've outlined. You've also made your gun less useful in an emergency, by your own admission, which is a trade off many gun owners refuse to make, because of that fear, and the sense of power and control that often accompanies gun ownership.
 

Xe4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,295
Yeah, I understand that information. I'm not too worried about it.
You do you. But it's important when discussing stories like these to not loose sight of the big picture. Cases like these are a significant minority when compared to situations where a gun was responsible for an innocent person dying based on a large plethora of evidence.

Humans (myself included) are unfortunately bad at weighing risk though. We tend to overestimate the risk of dying from deaths we think of as scary and significantly underestimate the risk of dying in activities we aren't as afraid of.
 
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OP
OP
F34R

F34R

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,990
Chances are if someone wanted to break into your home you would not have time to ready your firearm because you've stored it the way you have.



Idd.

This was model use, absolutely. But it perpetuates an unsafe culture in the name of something incredibly rare that most people will never have to worry about. I view it in the same light as Trump holding up an illegal immigrant who murders someone as justifying some of his disgusting stances. It happens, and that sucks, but you shouldn't let that fear, that outlier, influence you. People (NRA in this case) will attempt to use that outlier to push their own agenda, regardless of overall harm to society by doing so.

I would certainly say your kids are at less risk than most gun owner's kids, given the precautions you've outlibed. You've also made your gun less useful in am emergency, by your own admission, which is a trade off many gun owners refuse to make, because of that fear, and the sense of power and control that often accompanies gun ownership.

Right. If it's a quick entry, I won't be able to use those tools. I'll have them if I can though.
 

BWoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
38,273
Has anyone done an analysis of number of mass shootings versus "good guy with a gun" scenarios?

It's gotta be at least 100 to 1.

Is that really worth it?
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
Undeniably so, yet nevertheless far, far lower than any statistic that includes the scores of unbelievably irresponsible people who do dumb shit like just keeping a handgun in the side table or letting their kids know the combination to the gun safe.

It truly is not difficult to keep something locked in a box at home except for brief interludes where it is transferred directly to a smaller locked box that remains on your person at all times until you arrive at a designated place for taking the thing out of the locked box.

Yeah, from my link earlier (I left it out, as I was focusing on responsible owners risk):

"Unsafe storage practices are also a key contributor to gun violence death and injury, particularly among vulnerable populations like children. A 2018 study found that approximately 4.6 million American children and minors are living in homes with at least one loaded and unlocked firearm. Another study similarly reported that "[o]f the homes with children and firearms, 55% were reported to have one or more firearms in an unlocked place," and 43% reported keeping guns without a trigger lock in an unlocked place."

Which really should be grounds for losing your kids. Insane.
 

Bdub79

Member
Oct 25, 2017
432
You know I'm all for strict gun control but I gotta say papers explaining that something fucked up is more likely to happen why having a gun at your house seems a little try hard. I mean...duh.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
You know I'm all for strict gun control but I gotta say papers explaining that something fucked up is more likely to happen why having a gun at your house seems a little try hard. I mean...duh.

Yeah. I think it comes down to feeling more in control, despite not actually being so. Same reason some people get more scared on airplanes than in cars. You feel like you have more control over whether you die or not when encountered with a terrible situation. Eventhough you don't actually.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
Has anyone done an analysis of number of mass shootings versus "good guy with a gun" scenarios?

It's gotta be at least 100 to 1.

Is that really worth it?

This argument doesn't help though.

It's unrealistic to even call for banning all guns, and really only adds to the noise.

You need to begin with realistic campaigning for enhanced gun regulations. THIS is how you help prevent school shootings, by getting involved and actually trying to help steer in the right direction.

A gun ban would be great, but it's never going to happen in present day America.
 

Merv

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,460
Someone who kicks in your door and still doesn't back off when confronted with a gun is exactly the type of person you shoot.
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
I mean just because it is a straw man doesn't mean it's applicable. The rape victim needing an abortion is the other straw man that gets used but it's still valid

I don't think you understand what a strawman is. A strawman isn't a hypothetical situation, it's misrepresenting someone's argument in order to argue successfully against the misrepresentation instead of what they actually said.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
I mean just because it is a straw man doesn't mean it's applicable. The rape victim needing an abortion is the other straw man that gets used but it's still valid


Even if you ignore the use of quotes it's still a presentation of a slippery slope fallacy.

Not only did nobody in the thread say or suggest that phrase (at that point - although at least one person accurately noted that the claim is actually true in more sensible places) it doesn't follow at all that you are safer even against criminals with a gun. In fact statistics suggest the exact opposite - and strongly indicate that an accident or suicide with the same weapon is far more likely than successfully defending yourself in a life threatening situation.

And I am not even including the mistaken identity or intention scenarios.
 

Deleted member 15440

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,191
It's not simply "pro-gun". This thread shows a responsible person, calling 911, warning someone, and only using the weapon when there was a legitimate danger to her life and her kids. What's wrong with that?
what's wrong is that people like you use fringe cases where everything happens to turn out fine in order to justify a legal and regulatory regime that gives us widespread paranoia, higher suicide and accidental shooting rates, mass murder on a scale unknown to the rest of the developed world, and broad justification for abusive policing
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
It must be a US thing as a house alarm is standard in houses since the 90's where I live.

Alarms cost about €399. Not sure what a gun costs in comparison.

I didn't bother with a house alarm in the UK, ever since I called the police because a neighbour's one was going off and they said "we don't come out to house alarms". Which I kinda get because the vast majority of the time they go off by accident.

Visible cameras and evidence of a dog are far better deterrents.
 
OP
OP
F34R

F34R

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,990
what's wrong is that people like you use fringe cases where everything happens to turn out fine in order to justify a legal and regulatory regime that gives us widespread paranoia, higher suicide and accidental shooting rates, mass murder on a scale unknown to the rest of the developed world, and broad justification for abusive policing
Um, I didn't create this thread to justify anything. I also 100% am against abusive policing. Not sure where you even came up with that idea. Outside of this discussion forum (maybe one other from years ago), I don't discuss guns at all except with my immediate family, unless it was work related. I've been involved in three forums since 2009 that I've talked about anything outside gaming. Playstation Universe, Gaf, and here. Before 2009, the only thing I talked about was gaming, computer programming, and web development.

Before that, since 2000, I only talked about guns when I spoke with kids about them, how to report things when they see them, etc. I've never tried to justify anything gun related for someone else.
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
I think there's a seductive danger to applying population level statistics to every individual. America as a whole is obviously better off without guns, but I believe that this situation would have been worse for this individual had she been unarmed.

We could also say the same of alcohol, but it is easier to defend our personal choice to drink when prohibition has already failed.
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,275
I think there's a seductive danger to applying population level statistics to every individual. America as a whole is obviously better off without guns, but I believe that this situation would have been worse for this individual had she been unarmed.

We could also say the same of alcohol, but it is easier to defend our personal choice to drink when prohibition has already failed.
I agree. Good post.

Some don't understand how common break ins like this occur in rural areas.
 

KayonXaikyre

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
Gun as a concept are fine but there just needs to be more restrictions on them for mental health, the ability to acquire, some sort of license or training required to use, and other things to make them way way safer in general. This situation was pretty much the best use case for a gun owner. It turned out this way because the woman actually trained with the weapon, respects the power of the gun and what it can do to another human, was in good mental health and made good decisions, and actually did all she could to avoid using the gun in the situation she had. Hell she didn't even kill him. We could only dream that this is the most common way guns get to be used.
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
I think there's a seductive danger to applying population level statistics to every individual.

As this thread shows it's the opposite way around. There's a danger in ignoring population level statistics on the individual because of the Dunning-Kruger effect. We also shouldn't be crafting policy around anecdotes.

Some don't understand how common break ins like this occur in rural areas.

What happens in Australia?
 

Deleted member 15440

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,191
Um, I didn't create this thread to justify anything. I also 100% am against abusive policing. Not sure where you even came up with that idea. Outside of this discussion forum (maybe one other from years ago), I don't discuss guns at all except with my immediate family, unless it was work related. I've been involved in three forums since 2009 that I've talked about anything outside gaming. Playstation Universe, Gaf, and here. Before 2009, the only thing I talked about was gaming, computer programming, and web development.

Before that, since 2000, I only talked about guns when I spoke with kids about them, how to report things when they see them, etc. I've never tried to justify anything gun related for someone else.
aren't you a cop