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Mother of three shoots intruder...

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
3,190
As this thread shows it's the opposite way around. There's a danger in ignoring population level statistics on the individual because of the Dunning-Kruger effect. We also shouldn't be crafting policy around anecdotes.



What happens in Australia?
The best policy is obviously no guns for anyone. The point was that sometimes an individual can have a positive outcome from a policy that hurts the nation as a whole. This situation was statistically improbable but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. People can't point to broad statistics to say that this person was better off unaramed during the break-in that was occuring. Those statistics are too generalized.

On that same token, it doesn't hurt any policy arguments against guns to say that the gun most likely helped the victim in this situation. The big picture remains the same.
 

Thunder

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
314
And this is why I'm for guns , heck if I lived there I would own a shit ton.
 

Oheao

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,674
London, Ontario, Canada
I'd much rather have a gun too in this situation, it'd be much less hazardous than trying to use a knife or something else along those lines where you would have to be close-range.
 

Blade Wolf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,758
Taiwan
I am not a big gun right supporter but sometimes I do believe guns can save lives in the right hands, even if those hands belongs to civilians.
 

mikeys_legendary

The Fallen
Sep 26, 2018
1,245
Good thing mama bear was able to defend her cubs.

I won't argue that gun control is necessary. I support the creation of legislation that closes the three day loophole and the gun show loophole. I agree with rigorous mental assessment by a psychiatrist as well.

But taking away my second amendment right, no way.
 

Subpar Scrub

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,022
Maybe she should have invested money into security doors instead of a gun, then nobody would have been shot.

Edit: holy shit there’s a lot of posters I’ve never seen before in here. Where are you people in every other thread where innocent people get shot?
 

Mona

Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,134
The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic. There's a certain cold objectivity, if she and her children were killed it would probably be fewer women and children killed than by guns yesterday.
these were my thoughts as well.

there are people who's lives are saved by NOT wearing their seatbelts, that doesn't mean everyone should stop wearing theirs

making people wear their seatbeats by law is literally killing certain individuals who would otherwise live, but we all accept that trade because we understand that many many more are being saved

its the same calculation we're getting to with autonomous cars, alot less lives are going to be lost, but the lives that will be lost are ones that would otherwise live if autonomous cars weren't the norm

we live out the trolley problem far more frequently than i think people realize
 
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Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,679
A guy high on PCP isn't going to be stopped by a bullet, let alone a bat, when you experience guys high on PCP breaking through police handcuffs........yeah
Is this the real life?

Bullets don't stop things, nor do bats.

Bullets applied to the proper area and bats applied to the proper area definitely do, drugs be damned. What you mean is a guy high on PCP isn't going to be stopped by PAIN. You slap a tweaker, he goes apeshit. You pop a guy in the vitals or head or hit him in the spine, he's going down. He's not going to just rush you down in full-on "fuck you I'm on DRUGGGGSSSS" mode, he's going to be on the ground, dead, dying or unable to move or feel his body below the waist. Because when you fire to diminish or mitigate a threat, you fire until the threat is gone, not until you feel you've done enough to dissuade the attacker to stand down.
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
12,578
Remember that you can disagree with one another without resorting to accusations of trolling or dishonesty. Please keep it civil and avoid strawman and slippery slope fallacies.
 

Terminus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,874
User banned (3 days): ad hominem attacks, violating mod-post
Even if you ignore the use of quotes it's still a presentation of a slippery slope fallacy.

Not only did nobody in the thread say or suggest that phrase (at that point - although at least one person accurately noted that the claim is actually true in more sensible places) it doesn't follow at all that you are safer even against criminals with a gun. In fact statistics suggest the exact opposite - and strongly indicate that an accident or suicide with the same weapon is far more likely than successfully defending yourself in a life threatening situation.

And I am not even including the mistaken identity or intention scenarios.
Imagine building a career upon the glorification of gun violence and then having the sanctimonious audacity to police gun control discussions. Wouldn’t that be wild?
 

Nicktals

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,370
sure, it's most likely never going to happen. but just because it's unlikely doesn't mean it won't. shit happens to everyone, every day.

complying with the demands of an unstable criminal? you don't know what their intent is. in this case, it wasn't a robbery. letting a violent criminal into your home, unaware of their intent for you or your family is the most naive fuckin' thing i've ever heard. at some point despite how shitty the situation is, you have to put the well-being of your family above yours and protect them. it doesn't have to be a gun, but it should be something.
Missed this. I wouldn't let them in. They knocked the door down.

Showing a firearm immediately escalates any situation to deadly. It's entirely plausible (and I'd argue likely) that someone breaking into your house wants to take something of value. The odds of someone breaking in solely to murder you, unprovoked, are astronomical. You let catastrophic situations like that rule your actions, that's your choice. I dont. I think complying gives my family and I the best chance for survival in that incredibly unlikely hypothetical.

What was the intent in this case? And yes, shit happens. People die. All the time. If 1:100,000,000 deranged killer is how I go, then so be it. A gun has no positive effect on the likelihood of me not dying in that fashion.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,343
Missed this. I wouldn't let them in. They knocked the door down.

Showing a firearm immediately escalates any situation to deadly. It's entirely plausible (and I'd argue likely) that someone breaking into your house wants to take something of value. The odds of someone breaking in solely to murder you, unprovoked, are astronomical. You let catastrophic situations like that rule your actions, that's your choice. I dont. I think complying gives my family and I the best chance for survival in that incredibly unlikely hypothetical.

What was the intent in this case? And yes, shit happens. People die. All the time. If 1:100,000,000 deranged killer is how I go, then so be it. A gun has no positive effect on the likelihood of me not dying in that fashion.
The specific intent is unknowable, but as those potential outcomes do include assault and murder, we allow people to react as though they are such.

People are not psychics and should not be expected to be.
 

Stinkles

343 Industries
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
15,328
Imagine building a career upon the glorification of gun violence and then having the sanctimonious audacity to police gun control discussions. Wouldn’t that be wild?
edit. Not even remotely regretful of how I originally responded but I'd be derailing a derail. If you or anyone else wants to know what I said before the edit just DM me.

I'm not interested in having unrelated personal battles in a conversation.
 
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Vilix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,283
Texas
At least once a week, in the greater Houston area, a person is killed by a home intruder. I’m glad that this person was able to protect her family.
 

Nicktals

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,370
The specific intent is unknowable, but as those potential outcomes do include assault and murder, we allow people to react as though they are such.

People are not psychics and should not be expected to be.
I never said they were, or should be. Wtf are you talking about?

Allowing the most extreme outlier scenario to justify our actions is dangerous and irresponsible.
 

Subpar Scrub

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,022
Imagine building a career upon the glorification of gun violence and then having the sanctimonious audacity to police gun control discussions. Wouldn’t that be wild?
This is a bit much, don’t you think? Working on a futuristic Sci-fi game where you shoot aliens with lasers isn’t really equivalent to the deaths of real people, unless you also believe that the production team of Game of Thrones can’t rally against rape or violence without being “sanctimonious”.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,181
Maybe she should have invested money into security doors instead of a gun, then nobody would have been shot.

Edit: holy shit there’s a lot of posters I’ve never seen before in here. Where are you people in every other thread where innocent people get shot?
sending their thoughts and prayers
 

Draconis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
221
Frigging hell...

Some of the people in this thread. Everyone who is arguing that she shouldn’t have had a gun and should have used a bat or something else is effing mind boggling to me.

She was protecting herself and her KIDS! She warned the dude as well and told him flat out she was armed in hopes of de-escalating the situation.

As inflammatory as this comment may seem, and I apologize upfront for it but still feel I have to say...it’s like everyone who is saying she is in the wrong would have been perfectly fine with her and her kids being killed. Or worse.

Deep down I don’t think anyone really feels that way, but, frigging hell...come on!

I’ve had enough training and have heard enough stories about people hopped up on drugs having bones broken and they STILL come at you like it was nothing!! They just shrug it off.


This woman was protecting her house and her CHILDREN!!! Hell, here in my state we still have cops looking for a girl where her family was killed and she just up and vanished at the hands of an intruder. And 911 was called...


The heck is wrong with some people...I don’t even...


I’m sorry, but if someone crosses the threshold of my domain with clear intentions of harm to me and my loved ones, all bets are off. Period. I would do everything in my power to protect them.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,343
I never said they were, or should be. Wtf are you talking about?

Allowing the most extreme outlier scenario to justify our actions is dangerous and irresponsible.
If someone breaks into your home, we allow the use of lethal force in response to the entry because of the potential life-threatening danger represented by the action.

On the flip side, this is also why if they start running away from your house, you will be charged if you shoot at them while they're fleeing on your lawn.

What would be dangerous and irresponsible would be to expect someone living in the house to have to gamble on the intent of the person barging into it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
174
Man people here reaaaally hate the idea of a situation where guns led to a positive outcome.

I hope I never become so radicalized.
 

Terminus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,874
edit. Not even remotely regretful of how I originally responded but I'd be derailing a derail. If you or anyone else wants to know what I said before the edit just DM me.

I'm not interested in having unrelated personal battles in a conversation.
I saw, and please know that we agree on far more than we disagree with respect to gun safety. But acting like “ban all guns” isn’t an extremely common refrain is willful ignorance at best.

This is a bit much, don’t you think? Working on a futuristic Sci-fi game where you shoot aliens with lasers isn’t really equivalent to the deaths of real people, unless you also believe that the production team of Game of Thrones can’t rally against rape or violence without being “sanctimonious”.
I’ve lost count of the number of kids I’ve met over the years who decided to try shooting IRL because of Halo and Call of Duty. Power fantasies transcend genre.
 

Stinkles

343 Industries
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
15,328
Frigging hell...

Some of the people in this thread. Everyone who is arguing that she shouldn’t have had a gun and should have used a bat or something else is effing mind boggling to me.

She was protecting herself and her KIDS! She warned the dude as well and told him flat out she was armed in hopes of de-escalating the situation.

As inflammatory as this comment may seem, and I apologize upfront for it but still feel I have to say...it’s like everyone who is saying she is in the wrong would have been perfectly fine with her and her kids being killed. Or worse.

Deep down I don’t think anyone really feels that way, but, frigging hell...come on!

I’ve had enough training and have heard enough stories about people hopped up on drugs having bones broken and they STILL come at you like it was nothing!! They just shrug it off.


This woman was protecting her house and her CHILDREN!!! Hell, here in my state we still have cops looking for a girl where here family was killed and she just up and vanished at the hands of an intruder. And 911 was called...


The heck is wrong with some people...I don’t even...


I’m sorry, but if someone crosses the threshold of my domain with clear intentions of harm to me and my loved ones, all bets are off. Period. I would do everything in my power to protect them.
This woman appears to have been 100% in the right here and she did everything she should have and was legally in the right. Anyone who suggests that her specific personal reaction was anything other than appropriate in this circumstance is wrong.

But there is a reasonable conversation to be had about the reason she herself had to assume he might have a gun and the very real phenomenon exceptions being presented as the rule. She was brave and calm and in my opinion right to do what she did, but it's also important and ok to talk about how we get this country to a safer and saner situation with guns so that her kids will have less reason to think they need guns.

Part of that is going to be common sense gun safety so that the statistics reduce risk in the first place.

On the flipside, holding this woman personally responsible for the general problems with guns is victim blaming.
 

Cheesy

Member
Oct 30, 2017
429
Man people here reaaaally hate the idea of a situation where guns led to a positive outcome.

I hope I never become so radicalized.
I'm all for gun control but I support people being able to protect their lives as well. You can't rely on the police 100% (especially if you're not white), and a lot can happen in the time it takes for them to arrive. It sucks that somebody died but I also wouldn't wanna take the risk of whoever busted into my house hurting or killing me or a loved one either.
 

Stinkles

343 Industries
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
15,328
I hope my post didn't get Terminus banned since I should have just ignored it in the first place like a big boy. It's not perma is it?
 

nemoral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,071
Fiddler's Green
It's an edge case. The numbers are pretty clear, but they never excluded, and no one has ever seriously forwarded the argument that no one ever defends themselves successfully with a gun. But for gun interactions, it is clearly an outlier. Obviously it's good that she and her children didn't suffer whatever fate the guy had in mind. None of that actually changes the dangers of handguns. Argument by anecdote is rarely useful.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
1,524
This woman appears to have been 100% in the right here and she did everything she should have and was legally in the right. Anyone who suggests that her specific personal reaction was anything other than appropriate in this circumstance is wrong.
I agree. I don't like guns by any measure but she did everything she could. She even tried to de-escalate and she called the police. I wish she didn't have to do this but I understand why. My problem with guns isn't for situations like this. I lament that the situation occurred and a life was lost but she did everything correctly according to the law.
 

Draconis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
221
This woman appears to have been 100% in the right here and she did everything she should have and was legally in the right. Anyone who suggests that her specific personal reaction was anything other than appropriate in this circumstance is wrong.

But there is a reasonable conversation to be had about the reason she herself had to assume he might have a gun and the very real phenomenon exceptions being presented as the rule. She was brave and calm and in my opinion right to do what she did, but it's also important and ok to talk about how we get this country to a safer and saner situation with guns so that her kids will have less reason to think they need guns.

Part of that is going to be common sense gun safety so that the statistics reduce risk in the first place.

On the flipside, holding this woman personally responsible for the general problems with guns is victim blaming.

Honestly there’s a lot you could spin off from this whole topic, into a whole wide range of debates. Such as the issues of mental health, drug abuse, proper gun ownership etc.

You and I don’t disagree. We both feel she was justified and acted appropriately given the situation. She herself was worried about owning a Gun, and I don’t blame her. Every time I am around a Firearm I have an insanely healthy dose of respect for what that weapon can do.


What I take issue with, is people’s hatred of firearms being so blinding, that they don’t stop to think what could have been. What might have been and what could have happened to that woman and her children.


That’s what bothers me. The lack of empathy for the sheer ordeal she found herself in.

Discussions are fine to have, yes. But others acting as though this woman clearly had alternatives, when her door was kicked down after the guy was warned, and the recent events in my state where an intruder murdered a girls family after breaking in...

Yeah, I just have no idea how people internalize such callous disregard and instead focus on their own agenda.


*Sighs*

Anyways, I’ve said my peace. Take care all, I’m bowing out as I have a long drive ahead of me.
 

Xe4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,306
Guys, pretty much no one is saying this woman is in the wrong or that this situation was an example of bad firearm ownership. I have nothing but respect for the way she handled the situation, and wish her the best.

What I have an issue with is stories like these being constantly played to drum up fear and support for the "good guy with a gun" narratives. To make it seem like these events are far more common than they actually are.

If stories about two people getting into a fight that gets one of em shot were played up as often as shit like this, the entire discussion around gun control would be different.

That's my issue.
 

Musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,664
I'm sure this will get paraded by the right as an example on how wrong the Dems are when it comes to gun control. Except that this seems to be the type of person Dem's and the left are okay with having a gun.
Probably because they completely side step the fact that most people just want more common sense gun laws to help keep guns out of the wrong hands but they always try to re-frame it as THEY ARE COMING FER YER GUNS!
 

ObbyDent

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,242
Los Angeles
I don't think you realize what the role of the police are. It's to maintain a monopoly on violence/force to maintain the status quo, so they're going to be armed to ensure that they have a hold on that.
Buddy you do realize other countries don't have cops with guns right? That's reserved for the specialists that go in during times of a big crisis. guns aren't needed for every fucking little thing that happens.

Like I said

Fuck the police. Ban all guns
 

Oheao

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,674
London, Ontario, Canada
Buddy you do realize other countries don't have cops with guns right? That's reserved for the specialists that go in during times of a big crisis. guns aren't needed for every fucking little thing that happens.

Like I said

Fuck the police. Ban all guns
I found a list I believe:
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/in-what-countries-do-police-not-carry-guns-974879

Those countries also historically have had better labour rights for working class people. De-arming the police is not going to come from the top, it has to come from the bottom, and that's pretty difficult to do if they don't have guns.