My family's white hairstylist came out as "trans-black": Latin America is weirdly racist

[Masoyama]

Fair warning: This is a story from Costa Rica, told to me by my sisters. Don't make it about racism in USA, its a discussion on how it expresses itself in Latinamerica.

I just learned today that the guy who styles the hair of my mom, sisters, aunts, etc. has been identifying lately as black. He has started tanning more and even got dreadlock extensions. I was pretty sure the guy was just trolling, but his argument seems to be that he always felt black and that he knows he is not being exploitative because he is gay and knows what it is to be a minority. The guy is either trolling or not, but thats besides the point, his actions are so evidently racist but people around him don't see it like that, they think its "cute" or something.

Now, this story made me think about other situations in my home country and others where racism is being expressed in very awful unique ways. A few examples that crossed my mind:

- Refusing to call the guy the runs the corner store anything other than "China Man" or "Little Chinese Man" if you want to be friendly with him.

- Openly using someones skin color and race to identify who you are talking to in a meeting: "Black guy what do you think", "Would you agree with that brown guy", etc

- Someone got mad at me because I suggested we go to an Indian restaurant instead of a "Hindu restaurant" and was adamant that refering to food from India as Indian was racist.

- Widespread support of Trump and his immigration ideas, specifically their hatred of the types of people that have decided to attempt crossing into the US. Sometimes even saying that they don't go far enough and that we are being stupid for not implementing family separation at our border.

Pretty sure I can come up with many more. Living outside Latinamerica for the past 7 years has really opened my eyes. I know we have other Latinos here, I think recognizing it is present and also recognizing how it is different from racism in other parts of the world matters.

 

[PSqueak]

Oh boy, it's always hard to tell people why claiming to be "trans racial" is completely different from claiming to be Transgender.

The simpliest i can summarize my point of view of the issue is that Gender identity is a form of Self Expression, the way you express your gender is unique to you regardless of who you are or what you identify as, no woman or man, Cis or otherwise, express their gender the same way, as such whatever gender you identify you will express it differently and unique to you.

In contrast, Racial identity is NOT self expression, the social construct of race is based not on individuals but on large demographic groups, claiming to be trans-racial would mean rather than expressing yourself you're engaging in not only cultural appropiation but also acting on your [most likely wrong] perception of the chosen racial demographic, which is absurdly offensive and will inevitably lead to act out stereotypes and in essence black (or whatever race) face.

There is no such a thing as being "trans racial".

 

[Austriacus]

A lot of it is self hatred born from a rejection of our own culture after centuries of opression and control by the spanish. In regards to calling individuals by their "race" as "nicknames" (negro, Chino, etc) i believe its from the colonial practice of just having races be their own social class( you could literally buy white status in the spanish colonies).

Identity and our relation with it in south america is very complicated and unique.

 

[Masoyama]

A lot of it is self hatred born from a rejection of our own culture after centuries of opression and control by the spanish. In regards to calling individuals by their "race" as "nicknames" (negro, Chino, etc) i believe its from the colonial practice of just having races be their own social class( you could literally buy white status in the spanish colonies).

Identity and our relation with it in south america is very complicated and unique.

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I did not know that part. I knew you could not be considered full blooded if you were not born in Spain but I did not know you could "upgrade" your purity.

 

[SHAQ]

I just learned today that the guy who styles the hair of my mom, sisters, aunts, etc. has been identifying lately as black. He has started tanning more and even got dreadlock extensions.

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Cringe.

 

[Zoc]

Wait, so this guy is actually totally white? Not mixed at all?

 

[PSqueak]

A lot of it is self hatred born from a rejection of our own culture after centuries of opression and control by the spanish. In regards to calling individuals by their "race" as "nicknames" (negro, Chino, etc) i believe its from the colonial practice of just having races be their own social class( you could literally buy white status in the spanish colonies).

Identity and our relation with it in south america is very complicated and unique.

Click to shrink...

Mexican here, you just reminded me how in my previous job our boss nicknamed a specific coworker "el negro", but the twist is, our boss was the darkest skinned person in the whole area.

 

[Platy]

It is even weirder coming from a latin american because for example I am totally white here where I live, but the second I go to the usa and open my mouth I am more of a mexican than a white person, even if my skin is milk white

Mexican here, you just reminded me how in my previous job our boss nicknamed a specific coworker "el negro", but the twist is, our boss was the darkest skinned person in the whole area.

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It is common in brazil to see the blackest of blacks dudes be nicknamed "german"
Always found that weird

 

[Masoyama]

Wait, so this guy is actually totally white? Not mixed at all?

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Latino white, so think of closer to Italian and Spanish than German or Norwegian. But yeah, all white.

Mexican here, you just reminded me how in my previous job our boss nicknamed a specific coworker "el negro", but the twist is, our boss was the darkest skinned person in the whole area.

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Stuff like that kills me. Its not that hard to just use someones name, and somehow 90% of people see no problem doing it.

 

[Olaf]

Was MJ "transracial"?

 

[Akira86]

Was MJ "transracial"?

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no?

 

[HStallion]

Nomesayin?

 

[Tlaloc]

A lot of it is self hatred born from a rejection of our own culture after centuries of opression and control by the spanish. In regards to calling individuals by their "race" as "nicknames" (negro, Chino, etc) i believe its from the colonial practice of just having races be their own social class( you could literally buy white status in the spanish colonies).

Identity and our relation with it in south america is very complicated and unique.

Click to shrink...

This pretty much sums it up op. colonialism has fucked up Latin America. Colorism is also a pretty big thing and it exists in the US too among Latin Americans. I honestly don't know how to where to begin to fight this, its so deeply entrenched. Hell indio is used as a deregatory term, imo we would be better served reclaiming and embracing our indigenous roots.

 

[Austriacus]

I did not know that part. I knew you could not be considered full blooded if you were not born in Spain but I did not know you could "upgrade" your purity.

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Yea this is why they had so many subdivisions and names for all goddam blood proportions of people (mulato, pardo, etc)

Mexican here, you just reminded me how in my previous job our boss nicknamed a specific coworker "el negro", but the twist is, our boss was the darkest skinned person in the whole area.

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Here in Peru we say something along the lines of "siempre hay alguien que te puede cholear". Dude was trying to establish the racial pecking order with him at the top preemptively so that people dont call him names behind his back.

 

[Masoyama]

This pretty much sums it up op. colonialism has fucked up Latin America. Colorism is also a pretty big thing and it exists in the US too among Latin Americans. I honestly don't know how to where to begin to fight this, its so deeply entrenched. Hell indio is used as a deregatory term, imo we would be better served reclaiming and embracing our indigenous roots.

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Yeah in costa rica Indio is commonly used as an insult to mean uneducated or uncultured.

 

[New Username]

I am not convinced that the conversation about this person as an individual or about broader issues around identity and expression is helped by passing along second hand gossip the OP's parents told him about someone they don't know especially well. That most of the anecdotes about other people and practices seem to have a similar quality just sets it off on a worse foot. That it's second or third hand could be even worse.

Separate from this thread, the conceptualization of color and race in Latin America, the Caribbean, and Brazil does give rise to interesting questions that are worthy of discussion, and many people in those areas do have real tension about their racial identity which they need to negotiate.

The film Blindspotting, currently in theatres, had what I think was good commentary on racial context and identity issues of people who don't readily fit in their racial context (and the intersection of those issues with class and gender, frankly) in an American frame without the charged label "trans-racial" or the freakshow mentality of e.g. Rachel Dolezal.

To the extent that the story is a true story about a troll, I think we're best served by ignoring the troll. To the extent broken telephone is obscuring or sensationalizing the details, that's bad for this conversation. And I think there are real issues that can be talked about in the context of Latin America or anywhere else without poisoning the conversation with bad framing, imho.

 

[Pwnz]

Such a weird thing to believe. Especially for Latin America. My wife is half Mexican and her 23andme basically lit up the whole map. Most people there are mixed between iberian, French, Italian, native, English, east Asian, African, etc.

 

[hodayathink]

Was MJ "transracial"?

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Paris Jackson said MJ raised her telling her she was a black girl/woman.

 

[Rushersauce]

Not only that, it's sexist and mysoginistic as fuck.
See: Regaeton

 

[Veelk]

Sorta tangential thought:

If Trans-racialism(?) is a real thing, why is it that we mainly see it from white people wanting to be other ethnicities?

We don't hear about the black people who are truly white people inside.

 

[Masoyama]

I am not convinced that the conversation about this person as an individual or about broader issues around identity and expression is helped by passing along second hand gossip the OP's parents told him about someone they don't know especially well. That most of the anecdotes seem to be "dumb things someone said once" rather than anything that actually supports the framing of the thread just sets it off on a worse foot. That it's second or third hand could be even worse -- it's possible this is a "La-a" type myth where the OP has been told a story "by his sisters" but that they were actually told by others and so on and so on.

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I want to address this. This is a guy we all know for a while, sometimes we develop relationships with people like massage therapists and hair stylist that become more than just someone that gives you a service because of how many of us there are in the family (100+ people at Christmas parties for example).

This is someone that has a close-ish relationship with my family, I knew him 7 years ago before I left and my sisters consider him a friend. I just did not want to get into the whole thing in the OP. I mean I have picture of the guy in dreads talking with my sister and stuff.

 

[PSqueak]

Such a weird thing to believe. Especially for Latin America. My wife is half Mexican and her 23andme basically lit up the whole map. Most people there are mixed between iberian, French, Italian, native, English, east Asian, African, etc.

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This is what makes racial issues hard to contextualize in Latin America, we're so mixed there was never gonna be hardcore segregation to the level of the USA or other countries.

Sure, biases based on skin tone and the whole name calling thing (which by the way also happens if you're too white skinned) and it's a problem, but when your population is this mixed that's why a lot don't find it offensive and just varying degrees of uncomfortable.

 

[Masoyama]

This is what makes racial issues hard to contextualize in Latin America, we're so mixed there was never gonna be hardcore segregation to the level of the USA or other countries.

Sure, biases based on skin tone and the whole name calling thing (which by the way also happens if you're too white skinned) and it's a problem, but when your population is this mixed that's why a lot don't find it offensive and just varying degrees of uncomfortable.

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The mix also depends country by country. We are usually very white, and we actually use brownness as a way to identify (rather poorly) when someone is from another country in latin america.

 

[rstzkpf]

Does this guy know any black people irl? I know a lot of gay guys don't date black people so I'm curious about if he does.

Sorta tangential thought:

If Trans-racialism(?) is a real thing, why is it that we mainly see it from white people wanting to be other ethnicities?

We don't hear about the black people who are truly white people inside.

Click to shrink...

There was a black guy in one of my classes in college that had blue contacts, weaved (waved?) hair, and always dressed super prep.

It was extremely unsettling.

 

[baden]

I mean the situations you described were from different people or from the "trans-racial" person, but idk, you will hardly find a lot of support for Trump in latin america so is weird that you try to generalize it, and the hindu thing well, it sounds funny but it just may be a misunderstanding, in latin america indians are the ones from the americas, hindues are the one from India, i don't know why you think that says something about racism in latin america.

 

[Masoyama]

I mean the situations you described were from different people or from the "trans-racial" person, but idk, you will hardly find a lot of support for Trump in latin america so is weird that you try to generalize it, and the hindu thing well, it sounds funny but it just may be a misunderstanding, in latin america indians are the ones from the americas, hindues are the one from India, i don't know why you think that says something about racism in latin america.

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All are from different people over 10 years of my adult life between me entering college and leaving for the US to start grad school. The Trump thing I guess depends on your country. I know Costa Ricans are very xenophobic, and they feel like accepting immigrants from places like Nicaragua and Venezuela has taken us away from the time we were great (relatively) as a nation.

 

[PSqueak]

I mean the situations you described were from different people or from the "trans-racial" person, but idk, you will hardly find a lot of support for Trump in latin america so is weird that you try to generalize it, and the hindu thing well, it sounds funny but it just may be a misunderstanding, in latin america indians are the ones from the americas, hindues are the one from India, i don't know why you think that says something about racism in latin america.

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Because we have known for a long time that calling the natives/first nation people "indians" is wrong, i mean, it's literally taught in school that Colombus calling them indians was a misconception because he thought he had found an alternative route to India, we have known this for literal centuries and for some reason the americas collectively have refused to change their manner of speach regarding this issue.

Meanwhile, Hindu is also not correct to refer to a person from india, since it's actually a word to refer to people who practice Hinduism, which is a religion.

 

[Tbm24]

Guy has some things he clearly needs to work through in some therapy. In any case, the opposite of this happens in DR all the time. With the way people down there convince themselves to shit on hatians, it’s some vile shit.

 

[baden]

Because we have known for a long time that calling the natives/first nation people "indians" is wrong, i mean, it's literally taught in school that Colombus calling them indians was a misconception because he thought he had found an alternative route to India, we have known this for literal centuries and for some reason the americas collectively have refused to change their manner of speach regarding this issue.

Meanwhile, Hindu is also not correct to refer to a person from india, since it's actually a word to refer to people who practice Hinduism, which is a religion.

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That doesn't make it racist though, is weird to say things are wrong when everybody understands what you mean, yes hinduism is a religion, but when somebody says that they mean somebody is from India, not that they belong to the religion. Is like complaining how in english americans refer themselves to well as "americans", is understood by everyone what they mean, every language has its strange quirks.

 

[D65]

Tell this person they're an idiot.

 

[Reeks]

Was MJ "transracial"?

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MJ had vitiligo, a condition where pigmentation of skin becomes blotchy in large areas. They claimed the change was to even out skin tone. MJ still identifoed as being black. As for the facial structure changes and hair are concerned, I actually think it's possible MJ was transgender. Sorry in advance if this is too much of a derail.

 

[Syder]

Was MJ "transracial"?

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He was a black man his entire life and never tried to identify as anything else. Vitiligo is a naturally occurring disease affecting people of all races, it's just more noticeable on People of Colour.

 

[PSqueak]

That doesn't make it racist though, is weird to say things are wrong when everybody understands what you mean, yes hinduism is a religion, but when somebody says that they mean somebody is from India, not that they belong to the religion. Is like complaining how in english americans refer themselves to well as "americans", is understood by everyone what they mean, every language has its strange quirks.

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Oh no, what i mean is, in the example by OP, he was right to call Indian food, well, indian, the person claiming that using the word Indian is racist is in the wrong.

But i would say that willingly keeping calling Natives "indians" even tho we know it's wrong, can be seen as being a little racist.

Funnily enough, i used to get mad at americans for calling themselves so until i was reminded Mexico officially went by "The United Mexican States" so by that logic they had as much right to call themselves Americans as we did calling ourselves Mexican.

 

[Menx64]

Fair warning: This is a story from Costa Rica, told to me by my sisters. Don't make it about racism in USA, its a discussion on how it expresses itself in Latinamerica.

I just learned today that the guy who styles the hair of my mom, sisters, aunts, etc. has been identifying lately as black. He has started tanning more and even got dreadlock extensions. I was pretty sure the guy was just trolling, but his argument seems to be that he always felt black and that he knows he is not being exploitative because he is gay and knows what it is to be a minority. The guy is either trolling or not, but thats besides the point, his actions are so evidently racist but people around him don't see it like that, they think its "cute" or something.

Now, this story made me think about other situations in my home country and others where racism is being expressed in very awful unique ways. A few examples that crossed my mind:

- Refusing to call the guy the runs the corner store anything other than "China Man" or "Little Chinese Man" if you want to be friendly with him.

- Openly using someones skin color and race to identify who you are talking to in a meeting: "Black guy what do you think", "Would you agree with that brown guy", etc

- Someone got mad at me because I suggested we go to an Indian restaurant instead of a "Hindu restaurant" and was adamant that refering to food from India as Indian was racist.

- Widespread support of Trump and his immigration ideas, specifically their hatred of the types of people that have decided to attempt crossing into the US. Sometimes even saying that they don't go far enough and that we are being stupid for not implementing family separation at our border.

Pretty sure I can come up with many more. Living outside Latinamerica for the past 7 years has really opened my eyes. I know we have other Latinos here, I think recognizing it is present and also recognizing how it is different from racism in other parts of the world matters.

Click to shrink...

I am Costa Rican still still living here. I am not really sure what you are saying is true for most people, but just an specific scenario.
While I agree that what the hairstylist is doing is weird, I don't think is racist in any way. But maybe I don't understand and I hope you can explain it to me.
Calling people Chino o Chinito is not racist either. I don't refuse to call anybody for their name but the Chinise people for the most part don't even speak Spanish so it is difficult to talk to them and actually ask for their names. The other thing is calling someone negro. In the USA maybe that's racist, but I have never talk to anyone saying is wrong to call them negros. Negros is not a bad word and I have never talked to anyone saying otherwise.
About Trump? I dunno, maybe because of the Nicaraguan raper caught the other day? But even then I don't think thats a popular opinion by any means.
I am not trying to say what you wrote is false, but just that I don't think we all racist.

 

[FeliciaFelix]

Every country in Latin America has it's own quirk. In Puerto Rico there's the saying "y tu abuela donde esta" (So where is your grandmother?) when somebody tries to be too white. Great-grandma has an 80% chance of being black or descendant of slaves, because the Spanish hooked up, legit married, raped or kept a side chick anything with a vagina. He could have a legit white Spanish wife (and in the later stages, a rich daughter from the criollo class was born here) but 12 babies from side chicks of all colors around town.

Cant say a lot about Natives because the Spanish killed them all. But they made a study and some crazy high Taino gene in the PR population coming from matriarchal DNA but crazy high numbers from Spanish males. So that was a popular combo for a large chunk of time.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

It's always surprising when people don't realize that, at least South America, has countries that are still ass backwards with racist issues.

In Colombia we have parades where people dress up in black face. Hell speaking of black face, there is apparently a whatsapp black guy who is seen as the 'mascot' that I've never seen and one time I knew someone who dressed up as him with black face and all and when I called them out all of a sudden I'm just being hyper sensitive and he didn't dress like that to insult them only to be more original to the costume.

There is abhorrent systematic racism similar to the US. Black people and native blood people are those largely living in poverty and they can't really escape it for the most part. They live in dirt poor poverty in houses made of plastic and sheets of metal, go to substandard schools, and many of the individuals that get jobs in there do so in the service industry. Specifically being live in maids/nannies that work for horrible wages and live in little rooms by the kitchen in the house or apartment.

Folks call each minorities, even if they think they're being cute and endearing, by their skin color or race. "negrita/negrito" "chinita/chinito"

Saying the N word and other insulting terms is fairly common and nobody really bats an eye.

A lot of the country is fairly conservative and religious, so good luck convincing people about LGBT rights. Though this might have changed, not sure I no longer live in colombia.

 

[Deleted member 14636]

- Refusing to call the guy the runs the corner store anything other than "China Man" or "Little Chinese Man" if you want to be friendly with him.

- Openly using someones skin color and race to identify who you are talking to in a meeting: "Black guy what do you think", "Would you agree with that brown guy", etc

- Someone got mad at me because I suggested we go to an Indian restaurant instead of a "Hindu restaurant" and was adamant that refering to food from India as Indian was racist.

Click to shrink...

You are looking at Latin America through North American glasses.

“China man” has history as a perjorative. “Chino”, or “Chinito” does not. To equate “Little Chinese man” to “Chinito” as you are doing to the North American audience of Resetera is intellectually dishonest. While it could literally be translated like that, the context is missing. In Latin America, the diminituve “ito” is a term of endearment. While in north america to call someone little as an adjective ve is an insult. The only way it could be used as an insult is in an sarcastic manner, or adding it to an word that’s already an insult.

The same applies to your other examples. Calling someone “Negro”, or “Moreno” are terms of endearment. So is “Gordo”, “Flaco”, etc.

My father is called “Chino” by his friends. I had a cousin who was “Gordo”, and my one of my mom’s friends called me “Negro” when I was a child (even though I’m kinda pale). No one was offending anyone and we all love eachother. You can’t translate these words literally into english because spanish speaking countries are high context while english speaking countries are low context.

Notice you mentioned “Living in North America has opened my eyes”. What you are doing is measuring a culture’s values using another countries language without proper translation. Remember to always strive to interpret instead of merely translating, as you are doing.

Also, accusing a whole continent of being racist due to your shortcomings in proper translation skill is ignorant as fuck.

As far as the guy thinking he’s black and representing that by using a costume...Yes, he’s wack. But the other stuff you wrote has nothing to with that.

Love yourself.

 

[Stouffers]

Would the opening to Steve Martin’s The Jerk play today? Would he be considered trans-black?

 

[Masoyama]

You are looking at Latin America through North American glasses.

“China man” has history as a perjorative. “Chino”, or “Chinito” does not. To equate “Little Chinese man” to “Chinito” as you are doing to the North American audience of Resetera is intellectually dishonest. While it could literally be translated like that, the context is missing. In Latin America, the diminituve “ito” is a term of endearment. While in north america to call someone little as an adjective ve is an insult. The only way it could be used as an insult is in an sarcastic manner, or adding it to an word that’s already an insult.

The same applies to your other examples. Calling someone “Negro”, or “Moreno” are terms of endearment. So is “Gordo”, “Flaco”, etc.

My father is called “Chino” by his friends. I had a cousin who was “Gordo”, and my one of my mom’s friends called me “Negro” when I was a child (even though I’m kinda pale). No one was offending anyone and we all love eachother. You can’t translate these words literally into english because spanish speaking countries are high context while english speaking countries are low context.

Notice you mentioned “Living in North America has opened my eyes”. What you are doing is measuring a culture’s values using another countries language without proper translation. Remember to always strive to interpret instead of merely translating, as you are doing.

Also, accusing a whole continent of being racist due to your shortcomings in proper translation skill is ignorant as fuck.

As far as the guy thinking he’s black and representing that by using a costume...Yes, he’s wack. But the other stuff you wrote has nothing to with that.

Love yourself.

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Yeah, no, I don't have any issues with translation, interpretation or culture. I am wholly immersed in both sides and am fluent in both. Refusing to acknowledge that latinos are vastly racist and xenophobic is on you, and shielding yourself in "culture" is a great way to be left behind. Cultures have to be changed and adapted, only way to move forwards.

 

[WillyFive]

Was MJ "transracial"?

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MJ had vitiligo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitiligo

He always identified as black.

 

[BLEEN]

Was MJ "transracial"?

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He was pretty much a child/teen, for lack of a better term. Sad, but I def. get the dude. I don't think he ever got to experience truly being an adult.

 

[Pein]

MJ had vitiligo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitiligo

He always identified as black.

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There are pics of him with vitiligo becoming super blotchy too.

 

[Deleted member 14636]

I am wholly immersed in both sides and am fluent in both.

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Living outside Latinamerica for the past 7 years

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Realize how ridiculous you sound making these statements, especially after the claims made in your OP.

Refusing to acknowledge that latinos are vastly racist and xenophobic is on you

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Wow. Tell me, what other things do the monolith known as Latinos do?

and shielding yourself in "culture" is a great way to be left behind. Cultures have to be changed and adapted, only way to move forwards.

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Shielding myself from what?

And I guess "moving forwards" is imitating white culture and mannerisms? The low context communication?

You have been brainwashed. There's no point in engaging you further.

Love yourself.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Paris Jackson said MJ raised her telling her she was a black girl/woman.

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What makes that weird is that people dont believe her and also dont shes white

 

[NoRéN]

I can’t imagine what it must be like for black people to be disliked by people that desperately want your culture and actively try to take it.

 

[Masoyama]

Realize how ridiculous you sound making these statements, especially after the claims made in your OP. Wow. Tell me, what other things do the monolith known as Latinos do? Shielding myself from what? And I guess "moving forwards" is imitating white culture and mannerisms? The low context communication? You have been brainwashed. There's no point in engaging you further. Love yourself.

Click to shrink...

I lived 23 years in Costa Rica, from birth through school and college. Good to know that in some parts of this forum moving away from my country means that I have to abandon all my formative experiences. That sounds super healthy.

You are also implying that being tolerant is moving toward whiteness and therefore latinos should remain xenophobic and racist. Such a backwards view on race and how they mix with others is sad, you seem to indeed "love yourself" at the expense of anyone that is different from you.

 

[SweetNicole]

We're not interested in hosting a discussion on, with the heaviest amount of sarcasm quotes can imply, "trans-racial."