My Little Visual Novel Can't Be This Homophobic (Or How Queerness Continues To Be the Butt of the Joke in Japan)

[Weltall Zero]

Nah if the original game is shitty it should not be censored in the American release to give cover to them. People should know what kind of things they are supporting. If you want to support the homophobia that is happening in Japan than go right ahead but fixing it in localization only makes you feel better about yourself. It does not help the queer people being affected in Japan

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This is an interesting point that I hadn't thought about: toning down the homophobia so that it gets more sales in the west may be a bad thing, since that money goes to the original, homophobic creators anyway.

Of course this assumes that homophobia is a deal breaker and actually results in less sales, which given the current gamer zeitgeist may be wishful thinking... :/

 

[Menx64]

Japanese people use the english word "normal" as their version of "straight" when pressed for their sexuality. I've seen it multiple times and it never fails to piss me off.

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If you believe Normal is used in that context only in Japan... You are in for a rude awakening...

 

[Aters]

At the same time, Japan make more gay games than the rest of the world. It's really weird.

 

[L Thammy]

At the same time, Japan make more gay games than the rest of the world. It's really weird.

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Honestly, I don't think it is weird. Japan's a country with over a third of the population of the US. People-wise, it's a big place, so it's not hard to imagine that there are a lot of niche markets for things that mainstream society might frown on. It's also long had its own form of indie industry (that's what "doujin" means) which these mechanically simple story-focused games can thrive in and which allows small, individual creators to get their content out there.

 

[Gradon]

I was interested in this game, not anymore. I'm fed up of games treating us like this.

In regards to the subject of fixing these bullshit scenes in localisation I actually find it humorous as hell some of you would consider that 'censorship'. It's called localisation for a reason, and many other scenes unrelated to homophobia are altered in lots of games.

I would rather those scenes removed or altered because continuing to sell a localised version with the original intent intact let's your customers know you pretty much agree with it or don't see any problems with it.

 

[Deleted member 8861]

I'm not sure if it's better to leave it in and open the author/developer to criticism at the cost of signal boosting bigotry, or to cut it out and keep it from spreading at the cost of changing the author's voice/shielding them from criticism.

I also feel it isn't really up to me to decide.

Both of the examples you mentioned in the OP are from the characters being homophobic. Not like you don't have all the right to be disgusted, or believe the writers may share the same trashy ideas (from what you told us, I can totally see it here) but I will never agree with this type of censorship. Does that mean you can't have characters with flawed views on society in your work?

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When characters say disgusting and harmful shit like this, it being left untouched by the rest of the plot and the cast generally sends the message that the writer thinks these are acceptable things to say.
There are far clearer and far less damaging ways of portraying your characters as problematic if you don't plan to address their issues.

 

[Jebusman]

Both of the examples you mentioned in the OP are from the characters being homophobic. Not like you don't have all the right to be disgusted, or believe the writers may share the same trashy ideas (from what you told us, I can totally see it here) but I will never agree with this type of censorship. Does that mean you can't have characters with flawed views on society in your work?

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When those flawed views are never challenged, nor the holders of those views ever see any sort of reprisal for their positions, it's not OK.

All that serves is to normalize that behavior as an acceptable position to have.

If someone wants to write a homophobic character, you either make them the villain (and ensure the villain gets his comeuppance), or you make sure it's directly addressed and confronted. Letting it just slide isn't OK.

 

[Sub Boss]

Those lines are pretty bad, honestly its not just a prlblem with japanese games but with media in general, gays have been the butt of the joke since tv started

 

[Dracon]

I just wanna say that I dont like that this thread addresses particular cases but it is still calling out the whole Japan.

 

[sph3re]

Those lines are pretty bad, honestly its not just a prlblem with japanese games but with media in general, gays have been the butt of the joke since tv started

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The issue is that they are much more frequently the butt of the joke in Japanese media than other media.

 

[Sub Boss]

The issue is that they are much more frequently the butt of the joke in Japanese media than other media.

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True it could be even worse in Japan

 

[Leo]

What garbage. I hope this kind of shit gets called out until developers understand that it's not okay to make fun and ridicule their audience.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Thanks for saving me some cash, Shizu.

 

[hibikase]

At the same time, Japan make more gay games than the rest of the world. It's really weird.

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That output is mostly targeted at straight women though.

 

[Mars People]

Stuff like this should never be changed or censored in localisation.
People should see it and be made aware of it, then choose if they are ok with supporting it.
If problamatic content is covered up, how can it ever be addressed or improved?

 

[metalslimer]

Nah, as a gay man id have been 100% happy with the predators being removed wholesale from Persona 5. It existing in a localization is doing nothing but hurting us because no one gives a shit enough to change.

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I see you're point in that highlighting bigotry does more harm if people dont care enough. In an ideal world it would not be signal boosted while people would also be informed of the kind of views the creator held. These are kind of conflicting ideas though so it creates this catch 22 that I dont know how to solve

 

[Akronis]

What a shitty world we live where this is the character that's supposed to make the audience go "oh yeah, that's just like me, i identify with this guy!"

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yeah pretty much this lol

 

[Yukari]

At the same time, Japan make more gay games than the rest of the world. It's really weird.

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Most Yaoi Game/manga target fujoshi same with Yuri that target Otaku.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

At the same time, Japan make more gay games than the rest of the world. It's really weird.

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That content is produced primarily for a straight audience, both male and female. Japan is sort of OK with homosexuality as straight fantasy, but not so much as an actual practiced identity. That's a generalization obviously and doesn't hold true for everything, but it does explain the contradiction somewhat.

 

[L Thammy]

Stuff like this should never be changed or censored in localisation.
People should see it and be made aware of it, then choose if they are ok with supporting it.
If problamatic content is covered up, how can it ever be addressed or improved?

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I can understand this sentiment, but it probably shouldn't be left without comment, either. An approach like Tom & Jerry to its historical racism might be better:

 

[TinfoilHatsROn]

So let me get this straight: In addition to being homophobic, one of the main characters is a straight up pedo? Fastest 'nope' of all time. I'll take my money elsewhere.

I for one am shocked that a game that uses this as it's official description of it's main character

Sekai Owari

• Voiced by: Tomokazu Sugita
• Age: 24
• Birthday: September 11, 1992
• Height: 178cm
• Weight: 70kg
• Blood Type: O
• Favorite Things: Everything erotic, sake, horse racing
• Special Skill: Can tell a woman's bust-waist-hip measurements just by looking at her
• Role: Main programmer

Founder and main programmer of the game development company "Judgement 7." He is expected to be the representative of Judgement 7, but due to his perverted personality, he is not very well respected by the other members. He is actually a skilled programmer who creates a super perverted program that no ordinary person can create.


is toxic and shitty.

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Oh my fucking god, I'm actually laughing. I would think this is just satire but nope.

ROLE: MAIN PROGRAMMER got me more than I care to admit.

Fucking lol.

 

[Theswweet]

One of the early game plot points is gathering materials to create the "climax blade" to kill a tentacle monster. These items include: a "long, dark pole", "bananas", "cream", and "at least a C-cup or larger bra". There's more than just the homophobia and pedophilia that makes the VN, uh, questionable.

 

[Astrogamer]

The issue is that they are much more frequently the butt of the joke in Japanese media than other media.

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This is mainly because this subsection of the anime and game industry like to hone in on the nerd subculture. The games like this are only doing like 5-10k lifetime in Japan. They are extremely niche. The reason we keep hearing about them is because localizing these nerd power fantasies seems to pretty profitable. hell, one of the big anime of the last season, Rising of the Shield Hero, has a premise that is incel justification and only got made because of Crunchyroll.

 

[L Thammy]

This is mainly because this subsection of the anime and game industry like to hone in on the nerd subculture. The games like this are only doing like 5-10k lifetime in Japan. They are extremely niche. The reason we keep hearing about them is because localizing these nerd power fantasies seems to pretty profitable. hell, one of the big anime of the last season, Rising of the Shield Hero, has a premise that is incel justification and only got made because of Crunchyroll.

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I'm not a big anime guy, but my understanding is that despite being niche, these sort of things are still being pumped out on the regular in a way niche genres typically aren't. Being marketed squarely at nerds makes a lot of money because nerds won't just watch your anime, they'll buy all your merchandise as well. It's the late night version of toyetic series like Gundam.

 

[Deleted member 2669]

Nah if the original game is shitty it should not be censored in the American release to give cover to them. People should know what kind of things they are supporting. If you want to support the homophobia that is happening in Japan than go right ahead but fixing it in localization only makes you feel better about yourself. It does not help the queer people being affected in Japan

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I did always feel like it was a double edged sword. Probably the only winning move in this case is for them to not localize the game at all.

 

[Solarc]

Personally, I'm on team "don't change it" for reasons that have already been expressed on this thread, I'm curious what a poll on this would end up looking like.

 

[P-Tux7]

It does not help the queer people being affected in Japan

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Thank you. I want to see problematic elements getting patched in the Japanese version too, not just the localization. It's like cutting off the head of a dandelion, instead of pulling it out at the roots - it will just grow again.

 

[P-Tux7]

It's tiresome, but most people seem not to care (we still get daily posts gushing about Persona 5, which is downright hateful trash)

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I wonder what would happen if I pointed this out to every thread or post in a non-Persona 5 thread that compliments Persona 5.

 

[Zafir]

I for one am shocked that a game that uses this as it's official description of it's main character

Sekai Owari

• Voiced by: Tomokazu Sugita
• Age: 24
• Birthday: September 11, 1992
• Height: 178cm
• Weight: 70kg
• Blood Type: O
• Favorite Things: Everything erotic, sake, horse racing
• Special Skill: Can tell a woman's bust-waist-hip measurements just by looking at her
• Role: Main programmer

Founder and main programmer of the game development company "Judgement 7." He is expected to be the representative of Judgement 7, but due to his perverted personality, he is not very well respected by the other members. He is actually a skilled programmer who creates a super perverted program that no ordinary person can create.


is toxic and shitty.

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Hate to say it, but yeah.

I was initially interested in the VN but as soon as I saw that character profile I was out.

 

[LossAversion]

I really wish this would change. Even setting aside how disrespectful it can be, none of these "jokes" are ever even funny at all. Like the two gay characters in Persona 5, "ooohhh look at us, we're gay, you better watch out! Look at these handsome young boys, ooooohhh"... yeah... hilarious...

Sylvando from Dragon Quest XI was such a breath of fresh air.

 

[Velezcora]

It's disappointing how whenever discussion over problematic content in Japanese games arises on this forum, most people ignore the very much real marginalized LGBT movement in Japan.
Now I'm not blaming anyone in particular here but it's been pretty disgusting at times. People not wanting to think about these people just so they can easily dismiss the entire country as nothing but a bunch of toxic bigots.

OP's suggestion of removing this kind of stuff in localisation feeds into this. I know this isn't the message you're trying to spread, but it kind of feels like people in this thread are okay pretending this stuff isn't a reality in Japan. As long as they get to play their video games. Which is dumb.
Japan's LGBT community is real.

THEY NEED OUR SUPPORT.

LGBT people across the world need to know they're valid and they deserve equal rights and social acceptance. Especially when they live in a country with a very conservative overall bent.

So I think it's more important that we don't hide from this bitter reality. Maybe we could hide from it by having it removed from all localised properties but Japanese citizens can't.
It's very much real. So let's keep putting the spotlight on this stuff. Pointing this out and finding ways to support LGBT advocates in Japan.

I'm grateful OP made this thread because now we know, and knowing is half the battle.

 

[P-Tux7]

It's disappointing how whenever discussion over problematic content in Japanese games arises on this forum, most people ignore the very much real marginalized LGBT movement in Japan.
Now I'm not blaming anyone in particular here but it's been pretty disgusting at times. People not wanting to think about these people just so they can easily dismiss the entire country as nothing but a bunch of toxic bigots.

OP's suggestion of removing this kind of stuff in localisation feeds into this. I know this isn't the message you're trying to spread, but it kind of feels like people in this thread are okay pretending this stuff isn't a reality in Japan. As long as they get to play their video games. Which is dumb.
Japan's LGBT community is real.

THEY NEED OUR SUPPORT.

LGBT people across the world need to know they're valid and they deserve equal rights and social acceptance. Especially when they live in a country with a very conservative overall bent.

So I think it's more important that we don't hide from this bitter reality. Maybe we could hide from it by having it removed from all localised properties but Japanese citizens can't.
It's very much real. So let's keep putting the spotlight on this stuff. Pointing this out and finding ways to support LGBT advocates in Japan.

I'm grateful OP made this thread because now we know, and knowing is half the battle.

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Yeah, if you change sexism/homo/transphobia in the localization but not in the original, you aren't doing all you can for women and LGBT people.

 

[Deleted member 48828]

If you believe Normal is used in that context only in Japan... You are in for a rude awakening...

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I don't think you understand what I said. They literally call themselves "normal" because they don't have a shorthand for "straight" that isn't demeaning. Also, I'm gay and lived in America my entire life, I think I fucking know how it's been used here.

 

[deepFlaw]

Both of the examples you mentioned in the OP are from the characters being homophobic. Not like you don't have all the right to be disgusted, or believe the writers may share the same trashy ideas (from what you told us, I can totally see it here) but I will never agree with this type of censorship. Does that mean you can't have characters with flawed views on society in your work?

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This really isn't what you're describing.

This kind of joke isn't uncommon in Japanese media (which is not to say homophobia is absent from American media either, but this specific framework is something I'm familiar with) and it is definitely something the player is supposed to laugh along with. And specifically here, in these examples nothing would indicate you're supposed to find it anything other than amusing. These aren't villains saying something cruel, or even a low point for some characters to lead into character development, it's just people you're intended to like spouting offhand homophobia like it's nothing.

Plus even if you want to depict a bigoted character, you then have the responsibility to make it clear - I'm not saying it has to be bluntly/directly, just in some reasonable manner - that it's indeed meant to depict them as such. And that kind of nuance isn't really present here at all...

 

[Yukari]

I for one am shocked that a game that uses this as it's official description of it's main character

Sekai Owari

• Voiced by: Tomokazu Sugita
• Favorite Things: Everything erotic, sake, horse racing
• Special Skill: Can tell a woman's bust-waist-hip measurements just by looking at her

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Gin's san is that you ?

 

[Jon Carter]

I work in localization, though in movies and TV, and changing the original intent is a huge no-no. What you're suggesting is not simply adapting the work for different audiences.

 

[RM8]

I understand the logic behind the otaku market demanding tacky sexual content, but I don't get why they also demand homophobia in their media. Anyway, gross all around, I'll go back to ignoring the existence of these dumb non-games.

 

[Deleted member 3700]

No, I don't think the localization should be edited out. Editing this out is censorship. Rather it should be presented as original as possible so that thread like this can be created to inform people as well as allowing discussion on (1) why this is bad and (2) what we can do. As a consumer, I would like to know what I am getting myself into.

I understand the logic behind the otaku market demanding tacky sexual content, but I don't get why they also demand homophobia in their media. Anyway, gross all around, I'll go back to ignoring the existence of these dumb non-games.

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Most people don't "demand" homophobia but rather homophobia is very much a social norm in many Asian countries, many often strengthening and sustaining by conservative political leaders. I would say the environment is getting better over time but it is still difficult gay people.

 

[King Metal Zel]

Just like in the US and other western countries this type of "joke" often develops from viewing homosexuality as a choice people can chose to engage with rather than a sexual preference one is born with.

(The below is based on my own base assumptions regarding how I believe language can influence thought and that we think in language so make what you will)

Japanese has two words that are commonly used to describe an interest or preference; 興味 (Kyoumi) and 趣味 (Shumi). Kyoumi is used broadly to just express interest. この映画を興味ある。(Kono eiga wo kyoumi aru-> I'm interested in this movie). By contrast, Shumi is used to express preference in something, most usually a hobby. 趣味はゲームです。(Shumi ha gemu desu -> My hobby is gaming).

While I won't claim to be an expert on Japanese culture or whatever, I find that whenever these homophobic "jokes" appear in Japanese media "Shumi" appears to be the word of choice. 俺はその趣味をじゃねー！ (Ore ha sono Shumi jya ne-! -> I don't have that hobby/preference) whereas works that are more respectful of homosexuality will use "Kyoumi". 私はあなたに興味あるの。(Watashi ha anata ni kyoumi aru no -> I'm interested in you). "Shumi" is also what I hear when characters are having a panic attack about whether they might be homosexual as well. まさか俺はその趣味を…⁈ (Masaka ore wa sono shumi wo...?! -> Don't tell me I also have that preference/hobby...?!)

Anecdotal, yes, and I'm hardly fluent but I find it an interesting coincidence that "Shumi" is often used when portraying homosexuality as negative or unwanted considering the term's more common association with "hobbies". I can't help but think that might play a part in why it's thought of in that manner by way too many people (way too many people = any number greater than zero).

 

[Yata]

This really isn't what you're describing.

This kind of joke isn't uncommon in Japanese media (which is not to say homophobia is absent from American media either, but this specific framework is something I'm familiar with) and it is definitely something the player is supposed to laugh along with. And specifically here, in these examples nothing would indicate you're supposed to find it anything other than amusing. These aren't villains saying something cruel, or even a low point for some characters to lead into character development, it's just people you're intended to like spouting offhand homophobia like it's nothing.

Plus even if you want to depict a bigoted character, you then have the responsibility to make it clear - I'm not saying it has to be bluntly/directly, just in some reasonable manner - that it's indeed meant to depict them as such. And that kind of nuance isn't really present here at all...

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As much as I agree with many points you and other users have mentioned, that isn't clear.

The description for the character who says the second example mentioned in OP is:

Founder and main programmer of the game development company "Judgement 7." He is expected to be the representative of Judgement 7, but due to his perverted personality, he is not very well respected by the other members.

Of course, context matters, but this character clearly isn't supposed to be a good person.

Also, bigoted characters can still be likeable.

 

[deepFlaw]

As much as I agree with many points you and other users have mentioned, that isn't clear.

The description for the character who says the second example mentioned in OP is:

Founder and main programmer of the game development company "Judgement 7." He is expected to be the representative of Judgement 7, but due to his perverted personality, he is not very well respected by the other members.

Of course, context matters, but this character clearly isn't supposed to be a good person.

Also, bigoted characters can still be likeable.

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...I'm sure Shizuka could speak to this, but I'm pretty sure "not very well respected" there means "he's used for jokes", not "he's meant to be a bigot".

 

[Shizuka]

As much as I agree with many points you and other users have mentioned, that isn't clear.

The description for the character who says the second example mentioned in OP is:

Founder and main programmer of the game development company "Judgement 7." He is expected to be the representative of Judgement 7, but due to his perverted personality, he is not very well respected by the other members.

Of course, context matters, but this character clearly isn't supposed to be a good person.

Also, bigoted characters can still be likeable.

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He's portrayed as the pervert with a big heart. He's nasty, but he means well.

Not that it actually makes you think of the character in any high regards, but that's how the game wants to portray the character. There are scenes where he'll step up as the leader and protect the team.

If he was a horrible character that was unredeeming and the game wants you to hate him, sure. But that's not how it goes.

 

[devSin]

I wonder what would happen if I pointed this out to every thread or post in a non-Persona 5 thread that compliments Persona 5.

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There were some people who tried. You wouldn't get any traction. At best, a couple would say "yeah, it's bad, but the game is so good!"

Nobody cares.

 

[P-Tux7]

I'll go back to ignoring the existence of these dumb non-games.

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Let's not pretend that just because it has a stupid plot and jokes, it's not a game. It has audio and visual elements, and there is a degree of player input to pick route choices.

 

[geckcellent]

Both of the examples you mentioned in the OP are from the characters being homophobic. Not like you don't have all the right to be disgusted, or believe the writers may share the same trashy ideas (from what you told us, I can totally see it here) but I will never agree with this type of censorship. Does that mean you can't have characters with flawed views on society in your work?

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personally i don't support censorship of problematic content in any form, but i also think it has to be handled respectfully AND there's a difference between the narrative/writer promoting bigotry and a character IN the narrative promoting bigotry. stuff like this unfortunately falls under the former.

characters with worldviews and prejudices are always gonna exist (as they should!), but if they're important to the narrative & intended to be portrayed as a 'good'/protag-aligned character, i'm gonna be a lil 'eeeeh pass' if their chara growth doesn't involve a redemption/reversal of those prejudices.

 

[geckcellent]

Caligula Effect apparently had some crazy homophobia too

Since I don't play much else besides Yuri and a few Otome games, don't know what its like in other genres, but that's rather sad, but not unexpected. Isn't most Japanese media whether they are JRPG's (Final Fantasy is pretty progressive comparatively speaking) or VN's use this kinda of joke homophobia? Atlus games are notorious for this stuff. I don't see how it's going to change unless culture attitudes shift in Japan.

You should try reading something from the Yuri genre. The last ten years there's been many examples of Yuri VN's that have focused on the LGBTQ community including Kindred Spirits, Tokyo Necro, and Seabed.

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it's not really an atlus problem so much as it is a katsura hashino issue imo. the guy directed catherine and has been in charge of persona since p3 (p1 and p2 were handled by shoji meguro) and he's blatantly homophobic, so i'm not really surprised how bad the jokes about LGBT in p5 and to a slightly lesser extent p4 and p3 were. i was actually talking about this with a friend the other day and we were like Holy shit LMAO ryoji is just straight kaworu nagisa #fuckingseriouslyhashino

we've always been salty about p5 being a spiritual successor to p2, but after thinking about p3 just being nge but aggressively straight we were like,, wow! fuck! p5 is to p2 as p3 is to nge! p2 (innocent sin in particular) will always be one of the most iconic LGBT friendly games and there's like zero doubt hashino was trying to play off the vibe that earned p2 its dedicated cult following, but uh., yeah.. nooooo.. tatsujun is so integral to the main plot it's like cmoooon hashino, you wanna rip off p2 but the only LGBT in there is in the form of predatory caricatures?? cMOoOOon

like ann is literally a lisa ripoff but badly written and subject to 100x the narrative sexualization (despite ykno.. her entire arc being about subverting it??!?)
can't believe the gays wrote aggressively heterosexual teen boys better than the het smh .. i could go off on this for ages but anyway LMAO i'm always gonna be team eikichi mAN

 

[takoyaki]

The review by Shizuka is up

PSX Brasil (Portuguese) - 4/10

Empty, generic and even offensive, Our World is Ended misses the mark and wastes your time and money as a gamer. Well, at least it's pretty.

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Sounds like other reviewers had similar issues with this game:

N3rdabl3 - 5.3/10

It's hard to overstate, however, just how much the obsession with lewd content spoils what would otherwise have been a decent game. With its unflinching focus on breasts and porn tropes – and, most disgustingly of all, the sexualization of children – Our World is Ended reduces itself to a creepy, fetishistic tale of grown men obsessing over the bodies of teenage girls. It's the first game I've played that I'd describe as "revolting", and it should be avoided.

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Nintendo World Report - 3.5/10

As it stands now, it's impossible for me to recommend Our World Is Ended. The older version of the game we're getting is missing a lot of quality of life improvements. Little things in the text set off my editor senses. The plot quickly derails and is so overbearing with the focus on fanservice that I wanted to scream. Maybe PQube should try again with the Judgment 7 version next year, but I'm not holding my breath for it.

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JPGames DE (German) - No Score

You would have to be a fan of nonsense, unnecessary insults and sexist remarks to get some enjoyment out of Our World Is Ended. If you prefer a more serious story that builds up suspense and follows a normal narrative structure, you'll have to look somewhere else instead.

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[bytesized]

I really would support banning these games, developers and its defenders from this forum to be honest.

This shit is worse than most of the things people get regularly banned for around here, it only makes sense.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

Most Yaoi Game/manga target fujoshi same with Yuri that target Otaku.

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Fujoshi is just a nickname for girls who ship guys which people on 2ch inventend and then the girls picked it for them. It literally means rotten girl. Otaku is a name used for both male and female.

Also, the main target of yuri are female and they're the biggest group. Even if the disparity is more 55% female and 45% male in comparison to BL where the disparity is much bigger going to like 80% at worst.

 

[Hakunon]

I had the game on my radar at some point mostly because of the art but I have a huge VN backlog and no time for shit like this. Also, is this supposed to be the male version of a 1000 year old loli dragon?