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samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
So when half of the population believes this shit, you gotta hide that message. Even if the people would fall into the unworthy bucket themselves, they still believe in the order and their own place.

So even if working class whites totally dig socialism and Bernie, what they really want is socialism for them, little American flags for others. And how do you deal with people like that?
You offer socialism and don't mention the others as much? Like Bernie did?

Is Pelosi doing this? Is Pelosi telling the "marginal democrats" to go all in all white populism? If you're going to pander to racism either way, because of "political realities", either white centrism or white populism, why not package a bunch of "socialism" into it like M4A, which can provide the ground for expansion of Medicare to non-whites in urban locales?
 

Deleted member 1445

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,140
You are saying that because you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that Pelosi is intently listening to and getting feedback from those reps that flipped seats in 2016. I am saying that she actively encouraged people to promise to vote against her if it'd win them election. And I am saying that your "We know nothing, Jon Snow, so we should just do what I want" take is horribly, horribly off-base and doesn't reflect that we just won 40 seats and have a very strong idea what kind of messaging works and also, what kinds of things can get us into trouble and lose us a winnable election. (Unfortunately, Amy McGrath created the perfect example of the latter.)
How you can think this after you lost to Trump of all people is beyond me. Any Republican really.

You're treating campaigning as if it's a fine tuned science. I'm saying that that's misguided. It's anything but. Trying to focus group your way to voters will only get you so far, and with Republicans + Fox + Sinclair going on, it's just not enough. A really strong counter is required to the onslaught of Republican propaganda and corporate lobbying/influence.
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,466
Tulsa, Oklahoma
https://theintercept.com/2018/06/14/joe-crowley-congress-new-york/









AOC's victory was significant back in 2018, way before she became Fox's new bogeyman, because she primaried a Democratic incumbent whose emblematic of everything leftists resent about pro-business, nepotist, entrenched, machine Democrats.
AOC, Omar and Bernie's stances on issues appeals way more to the average American, but types like Pelosi and the like are doing whatever they can to tarnish their image for their own personal gain.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,474
What does that have to do with anything? It's becoming apparent now that there is a base for these things in the US as a whole. Who would have guessed that common sense has actual appeal? You're calling them progressives as if they're a radical fringe group, but all they're really doing is pointing out some common sense basic ass shit. They're not talking anything crazy, and everything has already been tried and tested in every single first world country.

Also, why would districts like that raise progressive candidates? Perhaps their culture stomps it out of them. That doesn't mean that coherent engaging message wouldn't appeal.
"The culture of those districts is too toxic for progressive candidates to emerge in them, but if they did they could totally win" is one of the most absurd statements i've Ever read
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,222
She isn't wrong, but the takeaway from that election was that a neophyte Democrat took out an establishment incumbent in Joe Crowley.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
AOC, Omar and Bernie's stances on issues appeals way more to the average American, but types like Pelosi and the like are doing whatever they can to tarnish their image for their own personal gain.
Omar makes her identity the center of her messaging so Pelosi's words only hold true for Omar, because she refuses to hide her identity, but AOC and Bernie's messaging appeals far more than Democratic centrist, "trust us, and believe in the system" messaging for those oh-so-important swing districts.

The cornerstone of AOC and Bernie's platform is economic populism, in fact, I see Bernie often criticized in the Democratic Primary thread for exactly this, because they think he talks class too much and not enough about race.

Then Pelosi turns around and says "you can just go all in on social progressivism, we might lose "middle" (white, racist America)!".

So which is it? Should people like AOC and Bernie lean into race or class?
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
What does that have to do with anything? It's becoming apparent now that there is a base for these things in the US as a whole. Who would have guessed that common sense has actual appeal? You're calling them progressives as if they're a radical fringe group, but all they're really doing is pointing out some common sense basic ass shit. They're not talking anything crazy, and everything has already been tried and tested in every single first world country.

Also, why would districts like that raise progressive candidates? Perhaps their culture stomps it out of them. That doesn't mean that coherent engaging message wouldn't appeal.
Because without those districts, we do not have control of the House. They are the marginal battleground districts that determine who controls the levers of power. They are the ones where we most have to rely on non-Democratic swing voters to win elections.

Kara Eastman and Amy McGrath both won the nomination running to the left of their competitor in swing district primary races in 2018. Both lost, and it was a consistent pattern in 2018's results where virtually no one in a competitive general House election won the general after having run an insurgent primary campaign to the left of their opponent. McGrath is being recruited to run for KY-Senate, which I presume is largely to prevent her from running in that House district again. (McConnell is unpopular, but it's still KY and he's still the Majority Leader in the Senate.)
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
The main thing that galvanized votes for the midterms was backlash against the Trump administration. However, progressive candidates like AOC got a lot of buzz which helped increase voter turnout from certain segments, like younger voters.

That is one likely valid theory, but the results of who won and who lost do speak for themselves.
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
She's not dissing AOC but I still find her position ridiculous.

Apparently, po' White folks and those in the middle love running out of insulin or going medically bankrupt.
 

Deleted member 51103

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 20, 2018
174
Portland, Oregon
Oh she talked about HERSELF first and THEN shit on AOC.

Yeah that totally makes up for it. Def not a backstab. :rolleyes:

The centrist dems do NOT want corporate accountability, they want the rich to stay rich and for everything to stay the same.

The democratic party is pathetic with their handling of AOC and Omar. There is a huge amount of support and enthusiasm there, but it works against the political class's interests. Totally spineless.

Business as usual will lose us another election. Business as usual is 40 years of wage stagnation and theft from the middle class. Business as usual is the heroin epidemic, corporate spying, too-big-to-fail banks, 3rd world quality education, families being bankrupted by healthcare costs, the defence industry getting massive handouts every year, climate-denying public works projects, roads to nowhere, and the entire middle class's continued evaporation.
 
The context everyone wants - a really good post

Jexhius

Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
965
For all the people crowing about "a lack of context" for Pelosi's comments I suggest you examine the article in the OP closely. If you read it you'll note that Pelosi's key quote re: a glass of water is presented with barely any context whatsoever. It just mentions that she was speaking at an event - which doesn't tell you much. Is she giving a speech - or responding to question? The article never makes it clear and just dumps her quote up front.

I agree that context is important so I did a little more work. Pelosi's comment is a direct response to an audience question. This context is key in unpacking the meaning behind her words. Unfortunately there's no transcript for this Q&A session, but you can find the question being asked at this timestamp:



I've taken the liberty of transcribing it to the best of my ability, as the question is a little rambling:

Questioner: A few days ago in '60 Minutes' you called for the Democratic party to have a sort of a centre message and you also mentioned that people like AOC were sort of on the margin of the democratic party, represented a few people within the house and within the party.

So I wanted to ask you a sort of double question: First, could it be a missed opportunity for young people that put a lot of faith and hopes in those 'so called' socialists and politics in the democratic party?

If not do you think it will ever be part of the democratic party program in maybe not 2020 but 2024, 2028 is it on-going?

Pelosi: Let me say, you're referencing a comment. When we won this election, it wasn't in mine of Alexandria's - she's a wonderful member of Congress, I think all of our colleagues will attest. But those are districts that are solidly democratic - this glass of water would win with a D next to its name in those districts. Not to diminish the exuberance and the personality and the rest of Alexandria and the other members. But when I said 3 - these were the ones getting a good deal of attention. But the 43 districts—we won 43, net gain of 40—were right down the middle. mainstream, hold-the-centre victories.
So, what's important about this exchange is that the questioned is asking a (somewhat vague) question in reference to Pelosi's '60 Minutes' comments where she downplayed the left-wing of the Democratic party. The questioner wants to know:

- If Pelosi's "missing the boat" as it were by not finding a way to channel the energy of youth who are very interested in pushing for more progressive policies
- Will the party ever adopt those policies - if not soon, but within a decade?

Now Pelosi does the classic politician trick of never answering the question and going off on a huge tangent. She never addresses the questioners point about the energy of young, politically active people. She fails to address where the party will go in the future. Instead, she downplays the significance of AOC's victory with a cunning manoeuvre that throws both herself and AOC under the bus. It doesn't matter if it makes her look bad (it wont) as long as the narrative is that AOC isn't anything special, she doesn't represent a movement, it's business as usual blah blah blah. She's looking to control the conversation which she does easily because it's an event for her and there's no real follow up (or pointed questioning).

It doesn't even matter if what Pelosi is saying is true or not - no-one was asking her if any Democrat could have won AOC's district. No-one was asking her if Democratic strategy needed to appeal to some kind of "centre" voter. They were asking her about the energy of the youthful, progressive, powerful wing of the party which is proposing and extremely popular legislation. Of course she doesn't have an answer for that because she's a centrist who is rapidly losing touch with the future of the party.

Edit: In my opinion the change of thread title is pointless and misleading. It's clear form context that Pelosi was trying to downplay AOC's victory. This is a narrative that she's clearly and repeatedly pushing in the media or wherever she can.

She did it on 60 Minutes.

She did it at this event.

She will do it again and again.

It's a narrative she is clearly and loudly pushing. Don't be fooled.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
Pelosi is a progressive voice in that district

Like... you don't get much more progressive than her

Yes, you do. Watch Pelosi's 60 Minutes interview where she says that the leftist wing of the party "is like five people" and it's her job to hold the ideological center.

Ew.

Their district has the Speaker's chair, one of the 3 most powerful elected positions in the US. Primary her and they lose it. They'll have the slugfest after her inevitable retirement sometime next decade. (Pelosi's also given away most of her campaign cash to other candidates for a long while since she doesn't need to actually campaign at home.)

If we keep the House in 2020 we'll keep the speakership and we'd find someone else to whip votes. She's ripe to be primaried from her left. I see she won in 2018 with almost 87% of the vote. I think we should seriously consider it.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
Do you have some evidence to support this claim?
That the baseline support for left candidates is young voters, not white voters?

Bernie Sanders, for all the claims that he tanked the black vote, drew a dead heat by the end of the primary from black voters under age 45 with Hillary Clinton. Because it's a divide based on age and class, not race.

It's also a lazy fucking attempt to silence people of color who happen to be leftists as if they are completely meaningless despite that every major left candidate that won this election cycle is a minority.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
How you can think this after you lost to Trump of all people is beyond me. Any Republican really.

You're treating campaigning as if it's a fine tuned science. I'm saying that that's misguided. It's anything but. Trying to focus group your way to voters will only get you so far, and with Republicans + Fox + Sinclair going on, it's just not enough. A really strong counter is required to the onslaught of Republican propaganda and corporate lobbying/influence.
Because I was not in a coma for the past 2 years and am not referencing the 2016 Presidential election when talking about the 2018 House elections.

I'm treating campaigning as though we just won 40 seats and control of the House of Representatives with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight where we can see what worked, what didn't, and also get valuable feedback directly from those 40 candidates who won in a combination of WWC Obama->Trump type areas and the very much not WWC areas like every single House district in Orange Country California that were flipped 5 months ago.
 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
Yes, you do. Watch Pelosi's 60 Minutes interview where she says that the leftist wing of the party "is like five people" and it's her job to hold the ideological center.

Ew.



If we keep the House in 2020 we'll keep the speakership and we'd find someone else to whip votes. She's ripe to be primaried from her left. I see she won in 2018 with almost 87% of the vote. I think we should seriously consider it.

Cindy Sheehan already tried that "primary Pelosi from the Left" idea before and failed spectacularly.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,474
Omar makes her identity the center of her messaging so Pelosi's words only hold true for Omar, because she refuses to hide her identity, but AOC and Bernie's messaging appeals far more than Democratic centrist, "trust us, and believe in the system" messaging for those oh-so-important swing districts.

The cornerstone of AOC and Bernie's platform is economic populism, in fact, I see Bernie often criticized in the Democratic Primary thread for exactly this, because they think he talks class too much and not enough about race.

Then Pelosi turns around and says "you can just go all in on social progressivism, we might lose "middle" (white, racist America)!".

So which is it? Should people like AOC and Bernie lean into race or class?
If centrist rhetoric is less appealing to swing districts than regressive rhetoric, why did all the progressives in swing districts lose while plenty of centrists won in similar or harder districts
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,629
It doesn't even matter if what Pelosi is saying is true or not - no-one was asking her if any Democrat could have won AOC's district. No-one was asking her if Democratic strategy needed to appeal to some kind of "centre" voter. They were asking her about the energy of the youthful, progessive, powerful wing of the party which is proposing and extremely popular legislation. Of course she doesn't have an answer for that because she's a centrist who is rapidly losing touch with the future of the party.
Hmm. So that's it then? There's no left for her.
 

daveo42

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,251
Ohio
Maybe run on a platform that doesn't care how far left you go as long as it helps people? Seems like healthcare for all is a big thing people like as is taxing the super rich. But no, we gotta worry about meeting people in the middle because centrism has really helped the party.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
For all the people crowing about "a lack of context" for Pelosi's comments I suggest you examine the article in the OP closely. If you read it you'll note that Pelosi's key quote re: a glass of water is presented with barely any context whatsoever. It just mentions that she was speaking at an event - which doesn't tell you much. Is she giving a speech - or responding to question? The article never makes it clear and just dumps her quote up front.

I agree that context is important so I did a little more work. Pelosi's comment is a direct response to an audience question. This context is key in unpacking the meaning behind her words. Unfortunately there's no transcript for this Q&A session, but you can find the question being asked at this timestamp:



I've taken the liberty of transcribing it to the best of my ability, as the question is a little rambling:


So, what's important about this exchange is that the questioned is asking a (somewhat vague) question in reference to Pelosi's '60 Minutes' comments where she downplayed the left-wing of the Democratic party. The questioner wants to know:

- If Pelosi's "missing the boat" as it were by not finding a way to channel the energy of youth who are very interested in pushing for more progressive policies
- Will the party ever adopt those policies - if not soon, but within a decade?

Now Pelosi does the classic politician trick of never answering the question and going off on a huge tangent. She never addresses the questioners point about the energy of young, politically active people. She fails to address where the party will go in the future. Instead, she downplays the significance of AOC's victory with a cunning manoeuvre that throws both herself and AOC under the bus. It doesn't matter if it makes her look bad (it wont) as long as the narrative is that AOC isn't anything special, she doesn't represent a movement, it's business as usual blah blah blah. She's looking to control the conversation which she does easily because it's an event for her and there's no real follow up (or pointed questioning).

It doesn't even matter if what Pelosi is saying is true or not - no-one was asking her if any Democrat could have won AOC's district. No-one was asking her if Democratic strategy needed to appeal to some kind of "centre" voter. They were asking her about the energy of the youthful, progessive, powerful wing of the party which is proposing and extremely popular legislation. Of course she doesn't have an answer for that because she's a centrist who is rapidly losing touch with the future of the party.

Edit: In my opinion the change of thread title is pointless and misleading. It's clear form context that Pelosi was trying to downplay AOC's victory. This is a narrative that she's clearly and repeatedly pushing in the media or wherever she can.

She did it on 60 Minutes.

She did it at this event.

She will do it again and again.

It's a narrative she is clearly and loudly pushing. Don't be fooled.

Yup, exactly this.
 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
The non stop smear campaigns not just from the right, but from our own party.

If smearing leftists is so easy, then why do you guys think it'll be easy, why do you think Bernie will be able to win such a commanding victory that Red State Democratic Senators and Representatives will be forced by The People to support Medicare for All?

What smear campaigns are coming from the left? And please don't cite examples like this as smear campaigns

In the world of the Online Left, criticizing their patron saints at all from anything but the further left is proof that you're a wishy washy centrist.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,474
Maybe run on a platform that doesn't care how far left you go as long as it helps people? Seems like healthcare for all is a big thing people like as is taxing the super rich. But no, we gotta worry about meeting people in the middle because centrism has really helped the party.
Healthcare for all was one of the focuses of the Democrats messaging though under Pelosi?
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
I cant

i cant handle how cool president Pelosi is

And of course, people (that oppose Trump) will go "that was taken out of context", just like any republican when defending their own bad politicians.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
Do centrist believe in the Overton window at all? They should be happy to have space opened up to look like a centrist who still has goals to run on.

I also think you can't give up on turning those policies from losing ones to winning ones. That's how you eventually back yourself into only being to run on anti republican.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
That the baseline support for left candidates is young voters, not white voters?

Bernie Sanders, for all the claims that he tanked the black vote, drew a dead heat by the end of the primary from black voters under age 45 with Hillary Clinton. Because it's a divide based on age and class, not race.

It's also a lazy fucking attempt to silence people of color who happen to be leftists as if they are completely meaningless despite that every major left candidate that won this election cycle is a minority.
Absolutely. Also that divide among age and class is seen in social issues as well. The older black and hispanic demographic can be very bigoted towards LGBTQ+, for example, but the younger demographic of black and hispanic voters is much more progressive when it comes to gender and sexual identity.
 

The_hypocrite

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,953
Flyover State
For all the people crowing about "a lack of context" for Pelosi's comments I suggest you examine the article in the OP closely. If you read it you'll note that Pelosi's key quote re: a glass of water is presented with barely any context whatsoever. It just mentions that she was speaking at an event - which doesn't tell you much. Is she giving a speech - or responding to question? The article never makes it clear and just dumps her quote up front.

I agree that context is important so I did a little more work. Pelosi's comment is a direct response to an audience question. This context is key in unpacking the meaning behind her words. Unfortunately there's no transcript for this Q&A session, but you can find the question being asked at this timestamp:



I've taken the liberty of transcribing it to the best of my ability, as the question is a little rambling:


So, what's important about this exchange is that the questioned is asking a (somewhat vague) question in reference to Pelosi's '60 Minutes' comments where she downplayed the left-wing of the Democratic party. The questioner wants to know:

- If Pelosi's "missing the boat" as it were by not finding a way to channel the energy of youth who are very interested in pushing for more progressive policies
- Will the party ever adopt those policies - if not soon, but within a decade?

Now Pelosi does the classic politician trick of never answering the question and going off on a huge tangent. She never addresses the questioners point about the energy of young, politically active people. She fails to address where the party will go in the future. Instead, she downplays the significance of AOC's victory with a cunning manoeuvre that throws both herself and AOC under the bus. It doesn't matter if it makes her look bad (it wont) as long as the narrative is that AOC isn't anything special, she doesn't represent a movement, it's business as usual blah blah blah. She's looking to control the conversation which she does easily because it's an event for her and there's no real follow up (or pointed questioning).

It doesn't even matter if what Pelosi is saying is true or not - no-one was asking her if any Democrat could have won AOC's district. No-one was asking her if Democratic strategy needed to appeal to some kind of "centre" voter. They were asking her about the energy of the youthful, progressive, powerful wing of the party which is proposing and extremely popular legislation. Of course she doesn't have an answer for that because she's a centrist who is rapidly losing touch with the future of the party.

Edit: In my opinion the change of thread title is pointless and misleading. It's clear form context that Pelosi was trying to downplay AOC's victory. This is a narrative that she's clearly and repeatedly pushing in the media or wherever she can.

She did it on 60 Minutes.

She did it at this event.

She will do it again and again.

It's a narrative she is clearly and loudly pushing. Don't be fooled.

A corporatist masquerading as a progressive that has fooled all the centrist that want to believe her farts smell of roses. Thanks, I was wondering why she went out of her way to make those comments and the question provides the detail the article lacked.
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,729
LOL at the idea that the Congresswoman from San Francisco is a moderate.

Look at her actual record.

You have to speak a bit differently when you lead a large caucus, some of whose members come from more conservative areas.
 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
So centrist believe in the Overton window at all? They should be happy to have space opened up to look like a centrist who still has goals to run on.

I also think you can't give up on turning those policies from losing ones to winning ones. That's how you eventually back yourself into only being to run on anti republican.

Speaking as somebody who has a political memory longer than a goldfish, I have seen the Overton Window moved.

A "moderate" Democrat today is far to the left of one from 2004 or 2005 - Conor Lamb for instance, was pointed too as "proof" the Democrats couldn't go far too left, while in reality, he was pro-SS expansion, pro-Medicare expansion, pro-LGBT, pro-choice, and the only thing he was moderate on was guns.

Yes, you need people at the left edges pushing things, but those people pushing at the left edges can't expect things to change overnight.
 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
LOL at the idea that the Congresswoman from San Francisco is a moderate.

Look at her actual record.

You have to speak a bit differently when you lead a large caucus, some of whose members come from more conservative areas.

No, all these leftists in this thread would just browbeat the moderate members of the caucus into accepting Socialism in our time, immediately, or they'd support a primary challenge and I'm sure that wouldn't destroy the party at all.
 

SaintBowWow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,085
This is the part people should be taking issue with, not the glass of water comment. She's, once again, peddling the same ol' bulshit that Dems need to tread down the middle instead of going further progressive/left. Yes, because that's worked out so wonderfully these past few years.

Fuck off.

In the part you didn't quote she states that the seats that were won in the 2018 midterms were won by candidates treading down the middle though...