Except he won't be removed. The objective would be to bring everything into the light.
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Nancy Pelosi, leadership team argue over impeachment during a closed door meeting that took place tonight ( Update: Another meeting planned tomorrow )
- Thread starter ElectricBlanketFire
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Except he won't be removed. The objective would be to bring everything into the light.
It's amazing isn't it? Some Democrats are so absolutely pathetic and spineless, that they'd rather just continue this charade than do anything. The party of progress lol...
The sad problem is, is that the alternative is just batshit insane.
100% right! If anything it would help for the future sanity of this country as a whole...but yeah at this point it's probably too late to turn the harder MAGA crowd around. Might help some of those educated suburban white women though. I imagine they'd consider changing their vote if this garbage was ever indicted / impeached.
Yup, bring to light whatever you can and when it inevitably dies in the Senate you can use that to control the narrative going into 2020.
If Trump isn't impeached I'm worried that basically establishes the president as someone who's truly above the law and if that happens I don't think that's anything you can ever reel back in.
you didn't say that before actually. you just knee jerked to the stupid ass "but 4 more years of trump!!!" bullshit that has been so pervasive on this forum. also imagine arguing against beginning the impeachment process because of what it would mean for minorities and women's rights.
Nancy probably doesn't want to risk it, since if Dems beat Trump hes going to be indicted in SDNY immediately after leaving office anyway, and he likely wont be able to be removed fast enough for the actual removal to be a consequence of impeachment.
Problem ends up being... what if Trump wins re-election? Are you going to begin impeachment after he wins again? Because that's going to look a million times more partisan and Fox will scream about Dems being sore losers. I think hes got a billion in one chance at winning, but i dont want to take those odds after 2016, so they should begin impeachment in... oh say 45 minutes if McGahn doesnt show up to Congress.
Problem ends up being... what if Trump wins re-election? Are you going to begin impeachment after he wins again? Because that's going to look a million times more partisan and Fox will scream about Dems being sore losers. I think hes got a billion in one chance at winning, but i dont want to take those odds after 2016, so they should begin impeachment in... oh say 45 minutes if McGahn doesnt show up to Congress.
Look up, I did. And yeah I can imagine that, but I'm getting tired of asking what your actual problem with that argument is.
There's really no reason to argue about this anymore. We're almost at the point where the people arguing against impeachment are doing it in bad faith.
Does Trump deserve to be impeached? That's the only question that should be debated. If you honestly don't think he deserves to be impeached, argue that. None of this, "he deserves it but this thing COULD HAPPEN" crap. If he deserves to be impeached, he should be impeached. End of story.
Does Trump deserve to be impeached? That's the only question that should be debated. If you honestly don't think he deserves to be impeached, argue that. None of this, "he deserves it but this thing COULD HAPPEN" crap. If he deserves to be impeached, he should be impeached. End of story.
Does the current political environment look like progress to you? And you should be afraid of four more years of Trump, I certainly am. Blowback means millions of people will get hurt.
Your argument is it's sinister for Democrats to want people to vote Republicans out of office?
Not an option, we'll be lucky to get impeachment through the House. Mitch McConnell is not going to allow Trump to be faced with those charges in the Senate. The president has been above the law as a political position long than most of us have been alive and it's gotten worse post-Nixon. Watergate, Iran-Contra, George W. Bush's administration - all got away with everything. America shouldn't get away with many, many things - what's frustrating is that the Dems are rarely in a position to fix these things as they should. This is why everyone should vote often and in every election because the Dems need those votes to do these things and they haven't had enough to reform the system as they would like. So they're stuck with what they have, which is their hand tied behind the backs and expected to make miracles happen.
A welcome development but not one which the Dems should rely on to defeat Trump.
Because energising the GOP and creating an atmosphere where Trump gets four more years is strength? Right. Having conviction is not the same as convicting Trump in the senate and the country needs more to hurt Trump than symbolism. Symbolism hasn't hurt the GOP one bit and the action we've needed is vastly outside the options we have available at present because this involves factors above Trump, factors which are deeply embedded in the system itself.
Bullshit.
Nobody's arguing that, everyone wants Trump impeached and in prison for his crimes. There is no argument to be had there. No, that's not the end of story. You want to ignore the context about how we got here because then the answer is simple and easy, politics is confusing and difficult to find the right answers to. Leaders who follow that reasoning are poor leaders since they're not thinking of the full consequences of their actions and millions of lives hang in the balance if they get this wrong. Could you take that pressure? Pelosi does this every single day. It's not a game.
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What is your idea of accountability? Pointing and saying "look at what he just did!" Nothing is stopping folks from doing that now.
Or are you dreaming of a world where republicans hold him accountable by confirming and removing him from office?
This has been happening the whole time. People need to accept that the public understands his crimes just fine and still want to prioritize other things. On several issues, the masses have been willingly setting aside moral responsibility for decades.
It's not bad faith.
It's people who think themselves political pundits in training casting aside Constitutional duty and mandate because of their baseless opinions on how it'll help or hurt their desired electoral outcomes.
It's two entirely different conversations.
Energizing the GOP is baseless scare mongering talking point.
Me walking down the street energizes the goddamn GOP.
You don't impeach, then don't fucking complain when the next demagogue comes into power and abuses the office.
It's not about getting rid of him, it's about putting on the books that everything was done to oust corruption. You expect people to vote for liberal wimps who won't even fucking fight back.
Impeachment is their duty at this point. If Trump doesn't deserve it, then no president ever will.
We all know Republicans will not hold him accountable. That's on them. We can still drag this piece of shit into the light, stain his shitty legacy, and just maybe show liberal voters that the Democratic party isn't full of spineless cowards and guardians of the status quo.
Pelosi, Hoyer, and Durbin need to go.
We all know Republicans will not hold him accountable. That's on them. We can still drag this piece of shit into the light, stain his shitty legacy, and just maybe show liberal voters that the Democratic party isn't full of spineless cowards and guardians of the status quo.
Pelosi, Hoyer, and Durbin need to go.
It's obscuring the fundamental question, does Trump deserve to be impeached. And that makes it in bad faith. If you honestly don't think he should be impeached, that's fine, but back up your argument with actual facts. These tedious and constantly regurgitated ideas based purely on hypotheticals, which history doesn't even back up, serve no purpose. The ruling document of the country calls for impeachment in situations such as this. That's a fact. The president engaged in impeachable behavior. That's a fact. Saying it might energize a base, which needs little motivation to get energized, and despite historic levels of turnout in a midterm in 2018 still resulting in a 10% point defeat to the opposition party, is NOT a fact, it's not a realistic point of contention, and is really just being used to obfuscate the main point.
There is not a single person in this thread arguing FOR impeachment because they think it will result in Trump's removal from office. But there are multiple people arguing AGAINST it, because it won't. They're arguing against no one, first of all. But it also lacks a fundamental understanding of what impeachment is, and why it's to be used.
Can we stop with the "it'll energize his base" takes already? They're already energized and already brainwashed. Trump could molest and torture someone on camera and the GOP base would gleefully vote for him in 2020. There is literally nothing that will change their minds.
Dems need to stop worrying about getting them angry and charged up and start worrying about depressing Dem voters by sitting on their hands.
Dems need to stop worrying about getting them angry and charged up and start worrying about depressing Dem voters by sitting on their hands.
That's fair. Framed that way, it does sound like it's done in bad faith.
Yep.
Thing is, he'll energize them with fear-mongering shit all the same when the general election swings around, complaining about how the dems are busing in illegals to "steal" the election and all that generic playbook shit. So what difference does it really make? There is this inherent belief that the electorate has seen through Trump's facade, but if he isn't impeached by a Republican senate then all of the sudden he is a truthful victim that will sway the public like he couldn't before. It's founded on nothing.
Or, the Democrats could actually inspire the 40% of American voters who didn't show up in 2016 to actually do so. The numbers would tank Trump supporters, but instead, we have this approach where moderates are our only hope to "beat Trump". Why is it the Dems have to reach across the aisle when every single Republican would spit in their face instead, continuing to move the country farther right? When there are active Democrats voting for abortion bills, how can anyone feel inspired to work with the party?
It'll get reeled right back in for the next Democratic President, I assure you.
If you're afraid of the idea of a pushback from proper and future proofing procedures, then you're afraid of progress, and there's nothing really more to that.
It's a duty at this point.
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This so much. People need to realize that these politicians aren't playing by the same rules and laws as us regular folk. It's why they don't give a fuck about ruining lives. Taking health insurance from millions of people? They've got their own good healthcare. The list goes on with all the double standards.
Also all of this is used to distract people from actually doing something to fight back against all the inequality and injustice.
The correct option is the politically tactical option. The duty of getting trump out of office supersedes all other duties.
YUP already lets not forget about the tax breaks for the rich - Pelosi benefits.
Careful there. Pelosi can never do any wrong /s
Jesus the moderate dems are fucking scum.
I haven't seen one fucking shred of evidence that an impeachment of Trump will "rally" his base, his base is fucking rallied.
They will rally over a fucking brown looking potato.
You fuckers opposing impeachment are indeed further helping a racist fascist.
I mean you think trump will be LESS brazen and do less crimes against the US system if the dems just let him play at will?
What the fuck are you people on?!
I haven't seen one fucking shred of evidence that an impeachment of Trump will "rally" his base, his base is fucking rallied.
They will rally over a fucking brown looking potato.
You fuckers opposing impeachment are indeed further helping a racist fascist.
I mean you think trump will be LESS brazen and do less crimes against the US system if the dems just let him play at will?
What the fuck are you people on?!
They think that because the Senate won't vote to impeach (of course, they have a Republican majority), people who would have voted Democrat in 2020 will now suddenly vote for Trump because trying to impeach someone who is pretty fucking guilty only makes that person more popular. Which is stupid, but in this assbackwards country it might actually happen.
I know why they are doing this, it's just a shitty weak justification and bad from an optics and tactics standpoint. Instead of pushing your advantage when you have an opportunity instead of waiting for the stars to align and force your hand. I mean, we have a Republican coming out in support of impeachment, what more do they need?
Yup yup yup.
Not too mention all this concern over 'energizing' his base and yet no seeming concern for what doing nothing does to the very energized group that have been attacking with every election trying to fight against the Trump administration.
Giving more weight to already decided Trump Republicans and some hypothetical voters who will be swayed by Trump tweets instead doesn't seem very logical.
You pulled a number out of your ass to suggest that going forward with impeachment proceedings would result in Trump winning. It was completely made up and ignored the very real possibility that not moving forward with impeachment could hurt Democrats. The majority of Democrats, the people who actually vote and are registered as a Democrat, have favored impeachment since the report came out. Generally, it's bad not to do what the majority of your supporters actually want - especially when it's the right thing to do.
Would you be ok not proceeding with impeachment if it meant Dems lost 5 points? It was a meaningless counterpoint that deserved being called out.
Clearly not because of anti-Trump sentiment. After all, impeaching him will cause us to lose 2020 or something.
Yeah, it annoys me as well
Listen dolts
If impeaching AssClown means he wins reelection, then this entire country deserves to burn from the top down entirely and unequivocally.
It was fucked from the beginning. And no amount of posturing was going to change that.
At least you'd be able to finally accept the majority of people are racist or idiots.
Just out it plain and simple.
If impeaching AssClown means he wins reelection, then this entire country deserves to burn from the top down entirely and unequivocally.
It was fucked from the beginning. And no amount of posturing was going to change that.
At least you'd be able to finally accept the majority of people are racist or idiots.
Just out it plain and simple.
Republicans win the Senate (odds are still in their favor), and Republicans steal another election (done it twice already!). How does it look if Democratic leadership has decided that despite the investigations and accusations, they still won't even do an impeachment inquiry? It sends a message that this was just the usual politicking, and it shows a fair amount of people that the Democrats aren't willing to exercise their Constitutional duty.
Democrats letting too much shit slide has led to the current situation.
Democrats letting too much shit slide has led to the current situation.
Imo that's already been clear for a while, a sitting president absolutely is above the law.
It's a good thing that we elected a bunch of people that apparently are incapable of multitasking.
Another bad faith argument: "People want changes to healthcare and immigration! If dems focus on impeachment, they won't get anything done!"
I think if you put "Impeaching Trump" on there directly it would do a lot better than that.
Are there people seriously thinking impeachment will bump up Trump? Clinton got the bump because Republicans went after him for lying about oral sex. Not whatever this is.
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