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Rival

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
385
Midlands
You'd think of all the possible villains in games, Nazis (along with demons) would be the safest bet to use, without offending anyone.

I understand people being upset with Russians and people from the middle east being increasingly annoyed with being picked as villains, but I can't fathom how anyone other than the most deranged individuas could be upset about the light in which Nazis are depicted
 

MrOblong

Member
Oct 27, 2017
264
I think some of the alt-right frustration here is that it's specifically a cool-looking game (and its marketing) which is challenging their beliefs- one they'd otherwise like to play which introduces conflict into their previously pampered media consumption. A significant proportion of these retrograde folk play games, at least amongst the younger set, and Gamergate demonstrated that there is an ultra-sensitive aversion to games inviting and representing other people than gaming's assumed dominant demographic.

Imagine, then, when that cool game's marketing campaign goes beyond simply including others and actively dunks on you... it must feel like a punch to the face!
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,997
I've been in love with shooting Nazis since I first played Wolf 3d on my buddy's computer back in '92, '93. Having been a console kid, that shit blew my mind.

When it launched on SNES it was one of the few games I bought with my own money, at launch. Shitty port or not, I stayed home "sick" from school for 2 days just having an amazing time playing it.

Hell, only reason I haven't bought Wolf 2 yet is I'm waiting on the Switch release. I've loved the marketing.

There's something wholesome, nostalgic, and kinda heartwarming about killing Nazis as BJ to me.

It is kind of mind blowing that people have a problem with it these days. Any good example you folks know of I can read online?
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,638
The problem is that Nazis have become like the boogeyman. Some sort of mythical monster without any sort of grounding in the "real world".

They have lost their very real threat.

I think this hits on one of the core issues on just how Neo-Nazism has been able to entrench itself so brazenly in American society right now.

In transcending into this ultimate evil, it's become all too easy, especially for the alt-right, to draw the line in the sand. Do you want to exterminate the Jews? Do you want to haul them on trains to concentration camps? No? Then you can't possibly be a Nazi, know matter what you do. Incidentally, maybe you'd like to hear this debate on how the Holocaust may have had good intentions behind it....
 

shimon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,578
Only in 2017 is this even remotely an issue.

The first Wolfenstein game came out a few years ago and no one batted an eye.

giphy.gif


Yeah WTF happened in 2017? This is nuts...
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,247
There's a very important scene Spielberg included in Saving Private Ryan where our heroes murder surrendering Czech soldiers in cold blood and then laugh about it. This is one of the less glamorous elements of D-Day in particular. A fair number of the people the Americans and their allies killed a Normandy were not Nazis. They weren't even Germans. They were conscripts from captured territories.



I think it's very dangerous to start glossing over the unpleasant realities of World War 2 in order to convince ourselves were were the super duper good guys and "The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi" is anything other than a destructive insanity that will eventually result in you lining up civilians and shooting them because, you know, they were probably Nazis. There's that very bleak sequence in Call of Duty: World At War where Reznov instructs you to kill unarmed Germans. You can either shoot them or burn them alive. It's a very unpleasant scene. Reznov is blinded by pure hatred for Nazis. It doesn't matter whether these people were Nazis. That is where war crimes come from.

Notice that enemies in Wolfenstein never surrender? You have no choice but to kill them or they will relentlessly seek to kill you. If Wolfenstein's enemies got down on their knees and begged for mercy, Perfect Dark-style, I think that would raise certain uncomfortable emotions in the audience that would not play well. The gleeful Nazi killing would suddenly start feeling a little... off. Datadyne in Perfect Dark is a really bad company. Its soldiers are fragile, even through they're responsible for a lot of bad things. "I'm just doing my job," they beg. "Please... don't!" they sob. Sometimes they literally throw their weapons away unprompted and beg to live. Various games have featured similar mechanics over the years. None as elegant as PD, though, IMO.

Killing enemies who only seek to kill you and cannot be halted any other way is inherently justifiable. It plays well, tonally. Killing unarmed enemies in cold blood... that jars the power fantasy. I am pretty confident that enemies never surrendering in Wolfenstein games is a deliberate design trait that serves to make the player feel better about killing.

I'd contrast Wolfenstein and Metro. In Metro: Last Light, you fight neo-Nazis of a kind. Bad, bad people. But you're not forced to kill them. The game is going for a very different tone, probably because Artyom, your character, committed genocide himself, and there's an underyling theme of forgiveness that, to be honest was probably cribbed directly from Ender's Game.


I think this is a good post. It's not like you're running around killing Wehrmacht soldiers or soldiers that are surrendering, Nazis were evil, horrible people, especially the people at the top. But a regular conscript more or less forced to fight for the Axis in the later part of the war, I don't really think they were evil monsters, and in game where the gore and killing is over the top the depiction of Nazis are usually over the top.

And to take offence to killing Nazis in Wolfenstein is really silly, I mean they are more or less evil incarnate. They are portrayed as being theatrical, bombastic and insane more or less. The real danger with real Nazis is that they look just like ordinary people.
 

Cake Boss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,068
Would rather shoot up Nazis, white supramicists and the KKK instead of Aliens in my video games. Think about it, these Aliens are misunderstood and just want to live peacefully in our planet.
 

Lmo2017

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,110
To the east of Parts Unknown...
We got bored of WW2 games while video games were the prime media consumption for youth. We basically stopped telling them Nazi's suck for almost a decade.

Time to get back to the classics. Obviously history class isn't cutting it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
521
Don't try to understand the racist, for the racist is really fucking dumb.

For real... it would be headache inducing. Most of their beliefs center about paranoia regarding people of color anyhow.

Because we now live in a world where its "us vs them" mentality. Some people have this complex that says if one group is getting attention it means they are getting less attention or feel attacked regardless of any evidence. Thus, just the idea of killing Nazi's now triggers a lot of people thinking its an anti white game. Its a sad state of affairs.

The worst part is this will probably keep getting worse. I know people who have flat out come out as racist, done real easily and with no regard to whom they offend.

maybe they are stupid enough not to realize that Nazis killed millions of white people and that they would have killed them as well (when conquering their country, if resisting and not being a collaborator).

Well stated! Lack of knowledge about history in general, some of these idiots are nothing more than typical Hollywood movie style Nazis who love having swastikas all over their clothes and couldn't even tell you a single fact about the Nazi party or their beloved fuhrer.

It's not a white thing. Every race has its racist dickheads. The vast vast majority of Europeans are anti Nazi, even people I know that I'd class as alt-right in the UK bristle at the idea of being a Nazi. Nazi love is definitely a US thing. Probably because they didn't have to experience it.

Reading through this thread @ reddit does show it to be mainly white people being offended about a game where you kill nazis, though. Or posters there stating that wishing to inflict violence on Nazis makes you look weaker than them in an argument : https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/799zz2/wolfenstein_ii_is_the_video_game_thats_pissing/

And the comments on YouTube for that video are even worse. ..
 
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PapaDoc

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49
The issue isn't the fact that they are killing nazis, that would be fine if it was just that, but the push for communism as well as created the parallels to the Trump campaign is the issue.
 

nillansan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,520
Denmark
The issue isn't the fact that they are killing nazis, that would be fine if it was just that, but the push for communism as well as created the parallels to the Trump campaign is the issue.

What is the issue? There's no issue. I applaud Bethesda and Machine Games for taking a somewhat aggressive stance against the uprising of white supremacists. We could have used a lot more of that during the height of gamer gate.
 

nillansan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,520
Denmark
If Wolfenstein's enemies got down on their knees and begged for mercy, Perfect Dark-style, I think that would raise certain uncomfortable emotions in the audience that would not play well. The gleeful Nazi killing would suddenly start feeling a little... off.

I wouldn't hesitate for second, fuck all this complicity hand waving bullshit. The only good nazi is a dead one. Their presence and their continued emergence is a direct threat against my existence.
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,135
Alberta
I'm a big fan of something I heard once but don't remember where...basically 'Nazis have funny uniforms, funny accents, easily recognizable symbology and colour scheme, and are hated by everyone that's a halfway decent person - what's not to love about making them villains?'
 

Sesha

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,810
It's also ironic considering how quick the far right is to cry about political correctness. We always knew they only wanted censorship of and hushed tones from everybody else but themselves, but I just never thought I'd see them being upset about super evil video game nazis.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Certain groups of white people believe that games where you kill Nazis means its an anti white game... but why? (I'm Hispanic so I really don't understand that) ; and seeing as Nazism hurt many European countries, should they not be AGAINST it?

Especially since kind of the point of BJ is that is supposedly their ideal but hates them with a passion. Sort of how most of Norway was trying WWII.
 

Machine Law

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,106
I take issue with any game celebrating the killing of people, but if its gonna happen anyway I'd say Nazis are the least offensive option.
 

New Donker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,355
This has been the biggest head scratcher for me.

If you're offended by the games marketing campaign around a Nazi killing game, you might want to step back and re-evaluate yourself.

And no, the developer is not cucked or propogatint a 'liberal agenda.'
 

Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,290
Propaganda against hate is good propaganda. If Wolfenstein is making a political statement, it's one I wish was more common.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
I used to roll my eyes at nazis (or nazi-like factions) being used as the token villains for seemingly every piece of media, mostly just because it seemed lazy to me to use such a universally hated group (or so I thought) as a villain instead of actually taking the time to create a group of villains from scratch that the player (/viewer/reader) would feel justified in killing.

Now, I don't feel that way anymore. Bring on the nazi killing.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,997
NYC
For a world full of dark times, the rise of Nazi Germany was one of the darkest. Don't care if it's 10 years removed from it's fall or a 1,000, it's always gonna be satisfying to paint the floor with them in the video game world.

As far as the recent resurgence and how the term has maybe evolved. I'll leave that up to law enforcement and the FBI. You may be able to practice those beliefs freely as long as they are within the confines of the law, but you know your ass is on some sort of watch list, just waiting to have the hammer thrown down. It's just silly to make an argument that a group like that symbolizes white people as a whole or to try and politicize it. Like it just doesn't compute.

Our law enforcement structure is not concerned with the rise of white supremacy & related Neo-Nazism.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
I'm always curious about what sort of hypocritical correlation there is to this demographic of people currently upset. For example, how many of these people calling foul against Wolfenstein are also up in arms about the toning down of teenage girl sexualization in Japanese video games when they come west because "bubububububBUT CENSORSHIP"? Or how many of them were against the industry and consumer outrage towards that game Hatred?

I know I'll never have the answer to those questions, but I'd certainly be very curious to know.
 

Bricktop

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,847
You don't. It's a ridiculous notion.

There are a million reasons to purchase Wolfenstein 2.

Supporting a clever advertising campaign isn't one of them.

Pretty much. If you're buying the game simply to support "killing Nazis is a good thing" you're not much smarter than the people complaining about the game. You've been duped by a marketing campaign and journalists signal boosting a few idiots on 4chan, which in turn gets signal boosted again by people on forums.

I've been following this story since day one and I've literally never seen the sentence "killing Nazis is bad" from anyone other than those trying to make this story a thing. In fact, the overwhelming majority of complaints have absolutely nothing to do with the Nazi aspect of the game at all.

The amount of attention people are giving this story is so disproportionate to the initial pushback it's become kinda absurd. People are literally working themselves up into thinking that people believe killings Nazis is a controversy...It's not.

Well played Bethesda, you hooked a lot of fish with this bait.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
A problem would be the use of stereotypical images of enemies in all forms of American entertainment, which results in the unreflected idea that Americans are de facto always the good guys.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,969
The problem is that Nazis have become like the boogeyman. Some sort of mythical monster without any sort of grounding in the "real world".

They have lost their very real threat.
I honestly think that's why Wolfenstein hits a nerve as well; for a video game, but really for mass media in general, it digs just a little bit deeper into the Nazis besides just "they wanted to conquer the world" and looks at what ethnonationalist fascism is really composed of
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,962
North Carolina
Its nuts people fine issue with it. Its a game about killing Nazi's from World War 2, and in this games case beyond because they won. I don't see people getting upset at fictional books about killing nazi's.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,969
I've been following this story since day one and I've literally never seen the sentence "killing Nazis is bad" from anyone other than those trying to make this story a thing. In fact, the overwhelming majority of complaints have absolutely nothing to do with the Nazi aspect of the game at all.
Eh, there's been some
DMN1C1GXUAAxKhg.jpg:large
 

CarlosX360

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
73
California
It's absolutely a political issue when the President is making public statements about their being good people on both sides.
I think a lot of people misunderstood Trump a lot of the times, especially this. While there may have been white supremacists, but I took it like "these fine Americans."

But, hey. The media will just spin his comments as controversial. Meh. I ignore the media in all of its forms.

*sigh*
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
I'm glad their marketing team really leaned into the political climate, but it is depressing how far Nazism has come in modern times.

I should really finish that first game...
Yup. When they started developing the game I bet they didn't think that it'd have any relevance to the political climate.
 

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,157
i didnt read the article admittedly, but wolf's marketing wasnt controversial because it had nazis as the bad guys.

it was controversial because it was kinda sorta likening trump supporters to nazis. (bit of a strecth, i know).

trump supporters have terrible politics in my opinion, but they are not nazis.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
i didnt read the article admittedly, but wolf's marketing wasnt controversial because it had nazis as the bad guys.

it was controversial because it was kinda sorta likening trump supporters to nazis. (bit of a strecth, i know).

trump supporters have terrible politics in my opinion, but they are not nazis.

Perhaps you should consider reading the article?
 

RoninStrife

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,002
I hope games like Wolfenstein continue to highlight this. Theres good and bad. Nazi's are bad, no gray areas here no matter how the alt right propaganda machines spin it.

The alt-right seems to glamorise such an evil regime and thats where games should do their bit as an art and entertainment platform that reminds us how brutal and evil the nazi regime was.

The Wolfenstein franchise by Machine Games has been doing just this and I must admit, the nazi regime was evil in every measure of the word.

Games must be a part of the protest against them and their beliefs.

Against anything and everyone wanting hate to embed itself as part of our social norms.
 
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nillansan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,520
Denmark
As far as the recent resurgence and how the term has maybe evolved. I'll leave that up to law enforcement and the FBI.

That is a naive stance to take. To echo jon bones sentiments, given the bias within law enforcement and how authorities treat people of colour, we can't rely nor entrust them to actually protect us against radicalised white men.

Pretty much. If you're buying the game simply to support "killing Nazis is a good thing" you're not much smarter than the people complaining about the game.

I don't agree. It is worth supporting Machine Games and Bethesda for speaking out against the emergence of white supremacy be it a part of a marketing campaign or not. I admire them for it, game development companies taking a stance against bigotry is something that was sorely missed during the height of gamer gate.

I've been following this story since day one and I've literally never seen the sentence "killing Nazis is bad" from anyone other than those trying to make this story a thing. In fact, the overwhelming majority of complaints have absolutely nothing to do with the Nazi aspect of the game at all. The amount of attention people are giving this story is so disproportionate to the initial pushback it's become kinda absurd. People are literally working themselves up into thinking that people believe killings Nazis is a controversy...It's not.

I am not sure if you are trolling or you've been living under a rock for the past couple of weeks.
 

dpunk3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
376
Massachusetts, USA
I was always questioning why people actually made this into a big deal. 10-15 years ago, a game about killing Nazis would have been just any other game. Then the fucking Cheeto came into office and all of a sudden we can't kill Nazis? Fuck that.
 

Dog of Bork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,988
Texas
People getting mad at the marketing for this game need to take a moment to reflect on why they're getting mad. Yes, they're twisting Trump's slogan. Yes, they're referencing recent news of attacks on alt-righters. But they do so because the alt-right and neo-nazis rally behind said slogans and public figures.

Maybe those people should be less concerned about the marketing for a video game and more concerned with why their platform attracts such shitbags in the first place.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,978
I was always questioning why people actually made this into a big deal. 10-15 years ago, a game about killing Nazis would have been just any other game. Then the fucking Cheeto came into office and all of a sudden we can't kill Nazis? Fuck that.

Not wanting to be wrong by association. Even if you don't feel you're a Nazi, the fact that Nazis and white supremacists support Trump, and Trump doesn't condemn them means, on some level that you're all part of the "same team," or at least, both against libtards and SJW cucks. So it's that "You attack one of us, you attack all of us," mentality. You may not hate minorities, but you're sided with people who do, so you HAVE to support them, or else admit you were wrong, and for some people, that's a fate worse than death.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478

CarlosX360

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
73
California
C'mon son, at least try.
I try, but everywhere it's like you can't escape controversial bullshit like this headline. This is the reason why I backed off away from journalism. I used to want to write for Gamepro, EGM, and the likes, but then the internet has become a cesspool of "Trump is Nazi!" When it's not really true.

Everything has become more about making people believe something, rather than actual journalism. It's fucking stupid, and honestly, it's pissing me off.

I'm with the people that think that "Why the fuck is this even controversial now?"
 

Not

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
US
People who defend Nazis because Nazis were "human beings" and then turn around and grumble about "white genocide" (miscegenation) and dismiss Black Lives Matter and crow that all Muslims deserve vetting due to the existence of extremists

are bad people
 

dpunk3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
376
Massachusetts, USA
Not wanting to be wrong by association. Even if you don't feel you're a Nazi, the fact that Nazis and white supremacists support Trump, and Trump doesn't condemn them means, on some level that you're all part of the "same team," or at least, both against libtards and SJW cucks. So it's that "You attack one of us, you attack all of us," mentality. You may not hate minorities, but you're sided with people who do, so you HAVE to support them, or else admit you were wrong, and for some people, that's a fate worse than death.
Going by this, the fact that people who aren't Nazis are defending them is the biggest red flag I have seen to date.