• Light/Dark
  • Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

NBA Playoffs 2019: End of Lebrongelion | OT | Cus Crisis (Space Jam 2 Now Hiring, Apply Inside!)

Status
Not open for further replies.
TTG

TTG

Banned
Apr 16, 2019
1,631
That's a well informed post jdstorm.

mjp2417 said:
OKC has had 8 1st round picks, including 3 lotto picks, over the last 7 years if we assume they shadow drafted Sabonis. They have 2 good rotation players, one maybe, and 5 non-NBA players to show for it. Also, none of their 2nds have hit during that span. That's not the worst draft record in the league, but it's also not good.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's why criticizing drafting, especially low 1st rounders etc. is a non starter for me. It's easy enough to pick out stretches of time where certain teams do well and where teams miss on high picks, but this kind of thing just has too many variables.
 
Atomic Playboy

Atomic Playboy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,902
Portland, OR
TTG said:
That's why criticizing drafting, especially low 1st rounders etc. is a non starter for me. It's easy enough to pick out stretches of time where certain teams do well and where teams miss on high picks, but this kind of thing just has too many variables.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, if you want to single out "bad" drafting, the Blazers are head and shoulders above the rest of the league. They passed up Jordan for Sam Bowie, and they passed up Durant for Greg Oden. But they also got some serious side-eye for drafting Lillard so high, and that's worked out pretty well.
 

jdstorm

Member
Jan 6, 2018
7,565
mjp2417 said:
OKC has had 8 1st round picks, including 3 lotto picks, over the last 7 years if we assume they shadow drafted Sabonis. They have 2 good rotation players, one maybe, and 5 non-NBA players to show for it. Also, none of their 2nds have hit during that span. That's not the worst draft record in the league, but it's also not good.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

So that puts the 3 lotto picks as Adams, Sabonis and Payne right. That's 2/3 success

Other picks (looked it up)

Archie Goodwin: Traded Draft night for Andre Roberson. All NBA Defense 2nd team Success

Alex Abrines: Above league average shooter (rare for OKC) good ball handler, improving defender. Currently out of the league due to illness/personal reasons. At pick 32 that has to be considered a success. Current issues not withstanding.

Mitch Mcgary. Draft success, developmental failure

Josh Huestis: Couldn't shoot but was a good defender, it's mindblowing that he didn't get more minutes given how short they were at SF. He was actually reasonably productive his final year in OKC when Melo demanded that he play. Was signed by San Antonio this offseason despite having a broken foot. So clearly they see something as well. Grading Failure. TBD talent, definitely development.

Cam Payne: Stunted development, had but hasn't shown much elsewhere. Failure.

Sabonis. 27th in the NBA in BPM this season. Success.

Ferguson: Productive NBA player. Still young but showing flashes. Only developed because another starter got hurt. Grade too early, moderate success.

That makes them 6/8 on those picks by my count via draft and 3/8 after talent development. The draft rate is actually pretty good. Talent development was ass. As is their training staff.

Edit: also Abrines was a 2nd round hit but generally OKC didn't either have the roster space or motivation to develop those guys.

When your teams the past few years are

Westbrook Augustin Waiters Roberson Durant Ibaka Kanter Adams

Westbrook Semaj Oladipo Abrines Roberson McDermott Grant Sabonis Kanter Adams (All developed except Semaj who was a bad G league player)

Westbrook Roberson George Melo Adams Felton Abrines Huestis/Ferguson Grant Patterson

Melo was bad and they had no bigs (Which is why they lost to Utah) that team was better then their record

Westbrook Ferguson George Grant Adams
Bench Schroeder + Shit

OKC lost a lot of wing depth and their coach chose not to develop it. They are Currently playing Raymond Felton at SF these playoffs.
 
Last edited:
mjp2417

mjp2417

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,365
jdstorm said:
So that puts the 3 lotto picks as Adams, Sabonis and Payne right. That's 2/3 success

Other picks (looked it up)

Archie Goodwin: Traded Draft night for Andre Roberson. All NBA Defense 2nd team Success

Alex Abrines: Above league average shooter (rare for OKC) good ball handler, improving defender. Currently out of the league due to illness/personal reasons. At pick 32 that has to be considered a success. Current issues not withstanding.

Mitch Mcgary. Draft success, developmental failure

Josh Huestis: Couldn't shoot but was a good defender, it's mindblowing that he didn't get more minutes given how short they were at SF. He was actually reasonably productive his final year in OKC when Melo demanded that he play. Was signed by San Antonio this offseason despite having a broken foot. So clearly they see something as well. Grading Failure. TBD talent, definitely development.

Cam Payne: Stunted development, had but hasn't shown much elsewhere. Failure.

Sabonis. 27th in the NBA in BPM this season. Success.

Ferguson: Productive NBA player. Still young but showing flashes. Only developed because another starter got hurt. Grade too early, moderate success.

That makes them 6/8 on those picks by my count via draft and 3/8 after talent development. The draft rate is actually pretty good. Talent development was ass. As is their training staff.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Including the Roberson trade is fair, but Mitch McGary stunk and was out of the league after 2 years, Josh Heustis is a G-Leaguer, and Abrines is a fringe rotation player at best. Like I said, not the worst draft record in the league following that crazy run of draft success, but also not particularly good.
 

jdstorm

Member
Jan 6, 2018
7,565
mjp2417 said:
Including the Roberson trade is fair, but Mitch McGary stunk and was out of the league after 2 years, Josh Heustis is a G-Leaguer, and Abrines is a fringe rotation player at best. Like I said, not the worst draft record in the league following that crazy run of draft success, but also not particularly good.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Mcgary played good minutes year 1 and had great stats. He was averaging 15/12 per 36. There just wasn't a place in their rotation for him behind Kanter, Adams, Ibaka and Collision. So he didn't play and destroyed his trade value.

Josh Huestis is a guy who when healthy can single cover first option wings

And I would call finding a rotation player at 32 a success. That's pretty rare all things considered
 
HeavenlyE

HeavenlyE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,800
Atomic Playboy said:
He's more likable because he's simultaneously better at basketball and more humble. Every single advanced metric has Lillard over Westbrook. PER: 23.78 vs. 21.14. EWA: 18.0 vs. 13.3. VA: 541.3 vs. 398.0. Dame had 0 other All-Stars on his team, and Portland finished 53-29; Russ had Paul George (who is better than Westbrook, incidentally), and they managed 49-33. And, without Nurkic (the second-best player on Portland by every metric outside of scoring), Westbrook has led his team to a 1-3 start. He has been outplayed by Lillard in every single game this series. So, yeah, people are saying they'd rather have Dame because he's "likable."

tenor.gif
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes I'm talking careers, like how Harden and Giannis both had better seasons this year but people still call Lebron the best player in the world

Westbrook has been consistently better than Dame over the last 5+ years
 
Atomic Playboy

Atomic Playboy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,902
Portland, OR
HeavenlyE said:
Yes I'm talking careers, like how Harden and Giannis both had better seasons this year but people still call Lebron the best player in the world

Westbrook has been consistently better than Dame over the last 5+ years
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And how do you feel about his prospects going forward? I mean, I was all-in on Westbrook in his MVP season, and I stanned for him to win the award because who the fuck averages a triple-double? Now he's done it three times, and it's become clear that running up amazing stats isn't actually bringing his team wins, especially against stronger competition (like you might see in the postseason). Meanwhile, Lillard has had his struggles, especially in the postseason, where the Blazers have enjoyed consecutive sweeps. But he has also continued to grow and change his game up. Does he go out looking for triple doubles? Nope. Does he win basketball games? Increasingly, yes. Do you really think that Westbrook is the better player going forwards? Do you really think Westbrook has been the better player in this series, or in this season?
 
mjp2417

mjp2417

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,365
jdstorm said:
Mcgary played good minutes year 1 and had great stats. He was averaging 15/12 per 36. There just wasn't a place in their rotation for him behind Kanter, Adams, Ibaka and Collision. So he didn't play and destroyed his trade value.

Josh Huestis is a guy who when healthy can single cover first option wings

And I would call finding a rotation player at 32 a success. That's pretty rare all things considered
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Per 36 numbers for non-rotation (i.e. mostly garbage time) players have pretty much zero value. And Huestis kinda guarding Giannis one time holds as much value as Mario Hezonja dunking on Giannis one time. Abrines at 32 is fine, but if that's all you have to show for a near decade's worth of 2nd round picks that's not great. You know your recent draft record is kinda spotty when you are trying to convince the world that one guy who is long out of the NBA, one guy currently in the G-League, and another who has averaged 16 mpg for his career were good picks.
 

jdstorm

Member
Jan 6, 2018
7,565
mjp2417 said:
Per 36 numbers for non-rotation (i.e. mostly garbage time) players have pretty much zero value. And Huestis kinda guarding Giannis one time holds as much value as Mario Hezonja dunking on Giannis one time. Abrines at 32 is fine, but if that's all you have to show for a near decade's worth of 2nd round picks that's not great. You know your recent draft record is kinda spotty when you are trying to convince the world that one guy who is long out of the NBA, one guy currently in the G-League, and another who has averaged 16 mpg for his career were good picks.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You are being a bit redundant on the 2nd round picks. The team was loaded so they didn't bother with seconds. Although Ish Smith and Alex Caruso say hi.

As for Mcgary. His year 1 minutes are actually a reasonable sample because OKC struggled with injuries all year and he actually played some solid minutes and has a 24 game sample of 10+ mostly non garbage time minutes.

With Huestis his first 3 healthy years in the D-League he was an elite defender and when bought into the NBA he did an above average job. The best evidence for this was OKCs starters with different SGs vs GSW. OKCs starters with both Roberson and Huestis has a positive net rating against GSW. Others (Butler, Ferguson and Abrines) not so much

Edit: I'm also not denying that these guys didn't have a huge impact on the NBA. I'm just saying from what we've seen it's not solely based on talent but rather OKCs development process built on if their stars personally like you.

A good example of this is Jeremy Lamb. When he first arrived in charlotte he had no expectations because he almost never played in OKC. He eventually became a solid SG after getting a real chance
 
Gotdatmoney

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,500
Cornbread78 said:
Hopefully, they both give him the works because the dudes a punk
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Embiid is just a natural clown. We all know this. I dont really mind his antics though laughing during that apology really was poor form. Really doesnt matter what Simmons was doing, if you cant keep a straight face during an apology you honestly are better off juat saying nothing.

I hope that part of his personality grows up. But I mean, the antics give us something to talk about and he can back it all up on the court.
 
battousai

battousai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
893
Westbrook, what are you doing?! Making 3/5 in his first few minutes emboldened him to keep chucking and that did not help OKC one bit. PG getting into early foul trouble was unfortunate, but OKC not using Steven Adams more cost them the game.

I'm hopeful for a win in Portland, but Russ needs to stop shooting so much. Seriously, he's been looking for his shot as soon as he crosses halfcourt and it's infuriating to watch because it clangs out at weird angles and wastes Adams' positioning under the rim. Russ has also has been driving less, which is one of his strengths and would help space the floor better for OKC.
 
Jarate

Jarate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,614
My favorite thing on earth is watching the Sixers turn into a villain team so suddenly.

GMs should not be fucking harassing refs after the game in their private locker room, especially in a game where the refs ejected Jimmy Butler. Sean Marks is a fucking clown, imagine if fucking mark cuban or even danny ainge did this shit. Hes lucky no one cares about his franchise that cant even make headway in a market dominated by a sports franchise like the knicks

They arent going to call Embiid for a flagrant 2 for doing normal basketball plays really hard. Like, are we complaining about Embiid getting all ball and smacking jarret allen on the follow through?
 

Deleted member 9932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,711
Jarate said:
My favorite thing on earth is watching the Sixers turn into a villain team so suddenly.

GMs should not be fucking harassing refs after the game in their private locker room, especially in a game where the refs ejected Jimmy Butler. Sean Marks is a fucking clown, imagine if fucking mark cuban or even danny ainge did this shit. Hes lucky no one cares about his franchise that cant even make headway in a market dominated by a sports franchise like the knicks

They arent going to call Embiid for a flagrant 2 for doing normal basketball plays really hard. Like, are we complaining about Embiid getting all ball and smacking jarret allen on the follow through?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Everybody loves to root for the underdog. Sixers will also get more fans like this in later rounds.
 
Consequence

Consequence

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,975
Watching the POR-OKC game last night, I was really surprised at how many below average players were on the court when the bench units were out there. I know that both teams have had injuries that have them digging deeper into the rotation but maaan, bunch of guys who don't do much well were playing.
 
ViewtifulJC

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
Consequence said:
Watching the POR-OKC game last night, I was really surprised at how many below average players were on the court when the bench units were out there. I know that both teams have had injuries that have them digging deeper into the rotation but maaan, bunch of guys who don't do much well were playing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There's a small army of anonymous tall white dudes on the blazers that always amuses me.
 
Booki

Booki

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,865
Brooklyn
Consequence said:
Watching the POR-OKC game last night, I was really surprised at how many below average players were on the court when the bench units were out there. I know that both teams have had injuries that have them digging deeper into the rotation but maaan, bunch of guys who don't do much well were playing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
All of the good bench players are starters on teams like the Clippers or being paid big money on the Heat.
 
ViewtifulJC

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
They really paying Dennis Schroeder $15 million a year to be Gerald Green with Clint Capela hair for 25+ mins a game
 

Deleted member 5359

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,326
Would Westbrook be better if he'd had two or three years of coaching from a Dean Smith or Coach K? Would he be less selfish and more of a team player?

The reason I ask is because Russ plays the way I imagine Jordan would have played without Dean Smith having coached him. Jordan's even said as much, that Phil was "lucky" that Jordan was previously coached by Smith because it prepared him so well.
 
Last edited:
Peter Ian Staker

Peter Ian Staker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,454
Jarate said:
My favorite thing on earth is watching the Sixers turn into a villain team so suddenly.

GMs should not be fucking harassing refs after the game in their private locker room, especially in a game where the refs ejected Jimmy Butler. Sean Marks is a fucking clown, imagine if fucking mark cuban or even danny ainge did this shit.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You had Embiid and Simmons on your team and you traded for Butler.
Each one of those guys is more unlikeable than the next. This was the only it would go.

Also Mark Cuban would totally be harassing refs. Dude can't go 5 minutes without mentioning how the refs fucked the Mavs over in the 06 finals.
 
Jarmel

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,338
New York
Quick question, why is Lou Williams coming off the bench? Isn't he considered the best player on the Clippers?
 
Steve Winwood

Steve Winwood

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,589
Simmons is an aloof, standoffish dude who refuses to even try shooting in games.
Embiid is mouthy and arrogant, I like him but I completely understand finding him grating.
Butler engineered a coup through the media and tanked his own team to try to force a trade.
Tobias Harris is the most overrated basketball player in the NBA. Somehow we've all just accepted that this league-average starter is getting maxed. He has the vague outlines of a player who's twice as good as he actually is. He symbolizes the squandering of the Hinkie war chest.

likable players on the team: Mike Scott, JJ Redick, Boban
 
spyder_ur

spyder_ur

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,436
Not every team can be as likeable as the Boston Celtics, the only team to have won 4 games in this NBA playoffs.
 
Peter Ian Staker

Peter Ian Staker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,454
Blade Runner said:
How is Simmons unlikeable?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He just comes off like a douche.
Steve Winwood said:
Tobias Harris is the most overrated basketball player in the NBA. Somehow we've all just accepted that this league-average starter is getting maxed. He has the vague outlines of a player who's twice as good as he actually is. He symbolizes the squandering of the Hinkie war chest.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't find Tobi unlikeable. Not his fault good wings are at a premium right now.
 
CopperPuppy

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
Steve Winwood said:
Simmons is an aloof, standoffish dude who refuses to even try shooting in games.
Embiid is mouthy and arrogant, I like him but I completely understand finding him grating.
Butler engineered a coup through the media and tanked his own team to try to force a trade.
Tobias Harris is the most overrated basketball player in the NBA. Somehow we've all just accepted that this league-average starter is getting maxed. He has the vague outlines of a player who's twice as good as he actually is. He symbolizes the squandering of the Hinkie war chest.

likable players on the team: Mike Scott, JJ Redick, Boban
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Can't help but cringe when I hear someone call a player "mouthy"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.