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NinjaScooter

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Oct 25, 2017
54,100
You think he'll live up to his 2nd overall pick expectations?

What are those expectations? Historically number 2 picks arent franchise type players. I don't think Lonzo has all star/franchise type potential. He will never score enough for that. But if he can even just get to like a consistent 14-16 ppg on like 45/35 shooting, of he has a chance to be a really good starter for a good team. If he does that he probably won't be considered a bust, even if better players were taken after him (Fox, Tatum, Mitchell) What probably saves him from a narrative standpoint is that the guy picked right before him is Markelle Fucking Fultz.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,888
What are those expectations? Historically number 2 picks arent franchise type players. I don't think Lonzo has all star/franchise type potential. He will never score enough for that. But if he can even just get to like a consistent 14-16 ppg on like 45/35 shooting, of he has a chance to be a really good starter for a good team. If he does that he probably won't be considered a bust, even if better players were taken after him (Fox, Tatum, Mitchell) What probably saves him from a narrative standpoint is that the guy picked right before him is Markelle Fucking Fultz.
If he is an all defense guy that can be efficient as a 15/8/7 player that is a guy that helps you win titles.

I don't know if he will figure it out on offense but I would not be surprised if he makes a jump on offense. I don't think he will ever be Steph Curry or Chris Paul on offense but if he could keep his defensive production and could somehow be efficient and average 18 points with 7 assists and 6+ rebounds that is a fringe all star player.

I still think he is a perfect fit for LeBron because of what he brings on defense and via playmaking. He already has a role on the Lakers and its an important one.

I would always be careful in making predictions in young guys. Donovan Mitchel and Tatum looked like they were going to be shoe in all stars this years for the true believers after their amazing play in the playoffs, but both took a step back. Last year people were saying Ben Simmons might be a hall of fame player, now no one is saying that shit anymore. It can change fast good or bad real quick for a young player. Its fucking hard to be an all star in the NBA and it usually doesn't happen overnight.
 

Tom Penny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,208
What are those expectations? Historically number 2 picks arent franchise type players. I don't think Lonzo has all star/franchise type potential. He will never score enough for that. But if he can even just get to like a consistent 14-16 ppg on like 45/35 shooting, of he has a chance to be a really good starter for a good team. If he does that he probably won't be considered a bust, even if better players were taken after him (Fox, Tatum, Mitchell) What probably saves him from a narrative standpoint is that the guy picked right before him is Markelle Fucking Fultz.
Number two and three pick are a little over 40% combined at getting an Allstar at some point if you pick the right ones.
 

Anubis

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Oct 25, 2017
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Thats not a bust that's changing the goal posts.

Right now he is good enough to start in the NBA on a winning team and is productive on the floor. A bust is Markelle Fultz. Someone so bad it hurts you to keep them on the floor. Fultz was legit the worst player on the Sixers this year and forget starter, he was not even good enough to be a bench player. When you remember that he was the first pick and that they traded up to get there that is a boat sinking type of catastrophe.

Now if you want to move the goal posts to whether Lonzo is going to be an All Star? That is a fair question and unless he figures out how to be more productive on offense (definitely attainable for a guy as smart as him but not even close to a given) thats a stretch at the moment. I think it is fair to want to get an all star from a 2nd pick, but that is less common than you might think. Its hard to make the all star team in the NBA and it is really hard to make it consistently.

For Lonzo to get there he has to make a jump but you are crazy if you are giving up on him already. He was not ready to start last year and has become kind of legit after just one season. You have to give the kid at least 1-2 more years to see what he is going to be.

I think it is more reasonable to be disappointed in Brandon Ingram. We are in year 3 and everyone was hoping to see a bigger leap than we got. But at the same time to be fair he is only like 21 or 22 years old. This shit can take time sometimes.
This is a fair assessment and I appreciate ur high BBIQ being on display here.

However the operative words are "thus far". I honestly think up until now, he is a bust given the hype and lofty expectations (mostly bestowed upon by his own father).

It is certainly too early to give up on him but there are also people out there who think it's too early to give up on Fultz. Fultz is atm beyond a bust. He is a broken human being who needs help asap.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,888
This is a fair assessment and I appreciate ur high BBIQ being on display here.

However the operative words are "thus far". I honestly think up until now, he is a bust given the hype and lofty expectations (mostly bestowed upon by his own father).

It is certainly too early to give up on him but there are also people out there who think it's too early to give up on Fultz. Fultz is atm beyond a bust. He is a broken human being who needs help asap.
I mean yeah if you go by his dads hype he is a bigger bust than Fultz but I never paid attention to him.

He made a big jump in athleticism and defense this year and can actually take it to the rack and so far is an elite defense for his postiton. He could always see the floor and I am happy he continues to get better. I think he is a super smart and is going to get a lot better but his ceiling will be determined ultimately by his jumper and if he can figure out one or two dominant ways to score on the floor. I will be more surprised if he doesn't figure it out than if he does from what I have seen.
 

Anubis

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I mean yeah if you go by his dads hype he is a bigger bust than Fultz but I never paid attention to him.

He made a big jump in athleticism and defense this year and can actually take it to the rack and so far is an elite defense for his postiton. He could always see the floor and I am happy he continues to get better. I think he is a super smart and is going to get a lot better but his ceiling will be determined ultimately by his jumper and if he can figure out one or two dominant ways to score on the floor. I will be more surprised if he doesn't figure it out than if he does from what I have seen.

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Simmons lack a jumper as well yet he is shining in this league?

On paper, shouldn't Lonzo be able to produce like him?
 

EDeadman94

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Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Simmons lack a jumper as well yet he is shining in this league?

On paper, shouldn't Lonzo be able to produce like him?

Zo is younger and doesn't have the frame Simmons has to finish at the rim.

Just because no one talks about Simmons doesn't mean he's prefect. This is the same dude that scored only 1 point in a playoff game and allowed Spencer Dinwiddie to explode on him for 38 points which resulted in a Dinwiddie pay day.

Also, Luke Walton does not empower Zo by putting him in position to succeed the way Brett Brown allows Simmons to orchestrate the offense.

Ask any true Laker fan if I'm wrong about Luke being part of some of Zo's struggles at times.
 

Anubis

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Zo is younger and doesn't have the frame Simmons has to finish at the rim.

Just because no one talks about Simmons doesn't mean he's prefect. This is the same dude that scored only 1 point in a playoff game and allowed Spencer Dinwiddie to explode on him for 38 points which resulted in a Dinwiddie pay day.

Also, Luke Walton does not empower Zo by putting him in position to succeed the way Brett Brown allows Simmons to orchestrate the offense.

Ask any true Laker fan if I'm wrong about Luke being part of some of Zo's struggles at times.
Simmons is only a year younger and definitely not perfect. He has been exposed many times but I just thought Lonzo would have a parallel career.

It'll be interesting once Luke is canned to see how Lonzo develops.
 

mjp2417

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,363
Luke Walton isn't making Lonzo miss wide open 3's, airball layups, or shoot 56% from the line. Lonzo's current problems are still almost entirely due to his inability to put the ball in the basket consistently from anywhere on the floor at anything close to a league average clip.
 

bionic77

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Oct 25, 2017
30,888
Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Simmons lack a jumper as well yet he is shining in this league?

On paper, shouldn't Lonzo be able to produce like him?
Thats not a fair comparison because Simmons gets the ball in his hands. We would not win as many games but Zo's numbers would be much better if we were putting the ball in his hands more often. Thats true of almost any player in the league.

Lonzo has to produce on offense off the ball rarely getting the ball or running anything for him. How do you think Simmons would fare in that role? He would probably look even worse than Lonzo. Its fucking hard for a young guy to play with a superstar like LeBron who needs the ball in his hands.

And honestly Simmons hasn't really changed since his first year. Dude is a nightmare in space but he can be contained in the half court. Zo is not as good as him on the break but he has been pretty good this year and getting to the rack when he has space. Not quite elite, but definitely looks like an NBA guard now.
 
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Jarate

Jarate

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Oct 25, 2017
4,614
Lonzo and Simmons are actually very similar players in design. It's just that Simmons is taller, faster, and stronger then him.
 

bionic77

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Oct 25, 2017
30,888
Lonzo and Simmons are actually very similar players in design. It's just that Simmons is taller, faster, and stronger then him.
That's fair.

The other difference is that Lonzo will at least take a jump shot.

It's not hard to imagine Lonzo getting to league average as a shooter in a few years. It is pretty hard to see that happening for Simmons.

Though maybe Ben won't need it if he can perfect that post op.
 

MRYEAH

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,089
The hall across the room
John Collins is my hero while I'm getting paid to watch the Atlanta Hawks every other night
18.5 PTS
9.3 REB
guy is a joy to watch
one day these young hawks might be worth paying attention
kevin Huerter has been nice as well better than most expected
 

Hubologist

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Nov 1, 2017
1,119
Historically number 2 picks arent franchise type players.
NBA champion Darko "The Serbian Gangster" Milicic would like to have a word with you.

John Collins is my hero while I'm getting paid to watch the Atlanta Hawks every other night
18.5 PTS
9.3 REB
guy is a joy to watch
one day these young hawks might be worth paying attention
kevin Huerter has been nice as well better than most expected
I drafted dude but the early ankle issues had me shook. Eventually dropped him. Worst mistake.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,888
What is harder to do in the NBA, average 10 rebounds, 10 assists or 20 points a game?

I realize that a lot depends on competition and quality of teammates so just assume its all average.

I am biased but I have always found it harder to rebound than pass or score so I am going with rebounding.
 
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OP
Jarate

Jarate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,614
They're like the Rondo's of the current era.
except, once again, Simmons is way more athletic, and big then both of those players.

Also, I don't know if Simmons will ever be able to shoot well (I dont think he needs to, Giannis is doing fine without any shooting threat) while Rondo isn't really an awful shooter right now. Lonzo is willing to take shots, but he's been incredibly inefficient taking them.
 

Smurf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,529
Dude averaged like 7 assists as a rookie. He also played solid defense and ran the offense well. Yes, his scoring is ass, but everyone expected that. The 3pt shot is worrisome tho.,

Still, the only way you can call him a bust is if you expected him to be this amazing scorer or something, because he's been an alright NBA player so far.
 

Smurf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,529
What is harder to do in the NBA, average 10 rebounds, 10 assists or 20 points a game?

I realize that a lot depends on competition and quality of teammates so just assume its all average.

I am biased but I have always found it harder to rebound than pass or score so I am going with rebounding.
Rebounding is the easier one. If we go by metrics, it's prob assists. Which is also the right choice.
 

Tom Penny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,208
What is harder to do in the NBA, average 10 rebounds, 10 assists or 20 points a game?

I realize that a lot depends on competition and quality of teammates so just assume its all average.

I am biased but I have always found it harder to rebound than pass or score so I am going with rebounding.
Assists pretty easily. Two people average 10 assists right now over twenty players score 20+
 

Hydrus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,298
Random shit of the day: WTF happened to Donyell Marshall?! This guy aged like 20 years since the last time I've seen him. Hope the guy doesn't have health issues.


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NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,100
outside of being bigger, they're the same meta, player with elite passing, that can't shoot if their life depended on it.

The difference is that Ben is always going to have a size/speed/athleticism advantage over his defenders, so even if he never learns to shoot, he probably has a higher scoring ceiling than Lonzo (if Lonzo also never learns to shoot) because Lonzo doesn't have this same kind of advantage.
 

Poody

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Oct 27, 2017
2,440
The difference is that Ben is always going to have a size/speed/athleticism advantage over his defenders, so even if he never learns to shoot, he probably has a higher scoring ceiling than Lonzo (if Lonzo also never learns to shoot) because Lonzo doesn't have this same kind of advantage.

This early stage of both their careers, I wouldn't disagree that Ben has the higher ceiling because he's physically bigger. But Ben refuses to shoot the damn ball. And based on what I know this moment in time, if I were to forecast both their careers, I would say Zo would have a better career because one can always improve a shot once you lose a step.
 

TheFatOne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,898
Read that Kyrie quote where he's defending Steph, and my brain hurts. Just word salad. Man needs to use some of that super star money and get himself an education because he clearly didn't get one at Duke. Trying way to hard to sound enlightened when he's not even remotely close to being that.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,970
This early stage of both their careers, I wouldn't disagree that Ben has the higher ceiling because he's physically bigger. But Ben refuses to shoot the damn ball. And based on what I know this moment in time, if I were to forecast both their careers, I would say Zo would have a better career because one can always improve a shot once you lose a step.

I'd argue there's larger problems with Simmon's shot. He shoots better with his right (like, look at that fucking elbow), everyone tells him he shoots with his right from the media to retired players to the best shooters on his own team yet he's still getting shooting lessons from his brother and shooting with his left.

I would argue that this suggests Simmons has an attitude problem, whether it be arrogance or stubbornness I don't think it really matters. Lonzo might eat like a 6 year old but he seems like a pretty reasonable person who listens to basketball advice. There was a period last year where he was shooting like someone you actively want taking jump shots after he adjusted his footwork.

From that alone, I'd argue that Lonzo has more potential to become a more effective player in the playoffs faster.
 

Mory Dunz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,357
Luke Walton isn't making Lonzo miss wide open 3's, airball layups, or shoot 56% from the line. Lonzo's current problems are still almost entirely due to his inability to put the ball in the basket consistently from anywhere on the floor at anything close to a league average clip.

I don't follow lonzo like y'all, but my main issue is finishing and FTs.
the 3 pt shooting is one thing. eh what can you do at the moment

but not being good at finishing?
He's 6 foot 7, bulked up more than last year at least, and is more athletic than several point guards. Much more athletic than it was originally thought.
He towers over most point guards too. And his handles aren't great, but they're good
He should getting much more layups.

He's not small Kyrie or Steph, who have to make magic happen at the rim. He just has to attack and he has to do much less to score than guys like them. That's where he needs to improve

2nd year though, so it might come.

Random shit of the day: WTF happened to Donyell Marshall?! This guy aged like 20 years since the last time I've seen him. Hope the guy doesn't have health issues.


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lookin like angioedema
what are his bp meds lol dang
 

EDeadman94

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Oct 29, 2017
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If you have no issue with Luke's ability as a coach you don't watch the Lakers.

If you didn't know Luke was dead last amongst coaches when it comes to utilizing and maximizing lineups you definitely are not following Basketball correctly.
 
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