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NBC: American Psychological Association links 'masculinity ideology' to homophobia, misogyny

Oct 25, 2017
736
#51
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
2,966
#53
Just got my bachelors in psychology and applying for graduate school; yeah, this is pretty much accurate. Surprised a little they took a more sociological approach to this. Its honestly needed though.
I did psych and sociology undergrads (plus poli sci and English) so it’s good to see interdisciplinary approaches emerging more often. You can see a yearning from the CDC to approach gun violence from an epidemiological standpoint coming from that same line of thought.

More and more this is going to be necessary. When I did my first round of undergrads between 04 and 09, sociology departments were hitting this topic up very heavily and it’s been refreshing to see it filter across to its siblings.
 
Oct 25, 2017
439
#55
In the pdf, theirs the guideline, rationale, and application . I think the application suggestion strategies.
https://www.apa.org/about/policy/boys-men-practice-guidelines.pdf
I've been perusing this pdf and it has some parts that seem like they are bringing to light the shifting perspective within the psychological community towards how to treat male patients and how their own diagnoses have been influenced by these norms.

"For instance, although men are less likely than women to receive certain psychological diagnoses (e.g., depression, anxiety), psychologists recognize that these discrepancies may be due in part to gender role socialization (Addis, 2008), which impacts men’s help-seeking behaviors and how they present their physical and psychological distress (Cochran & Rabinowitz, 2000"

It even talks about because of these societal constructs men are more likely to be diagnosed with something like ADHD. To any psychologists out there, is this kind of admitting that ADHD diagnoses for many men need to be revisited?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,686
#57
I like the idea of establishing clinical treatment, but how does that work when one of the symptoms is the avoidance of treatment?
Broadening social awareness to the issue is one of the major ways of combating that. While it's not a cure-all to getting all men to seek treatment it does open the dialogue for treatment being an option when it may not have even been there before. A social awareness and acceptance of being told 'it's okay to ask for help' can be a first step for many people.
 

Tya

Member
Oct 30, 2017
581
#58
Yep. On Facebook I hear "men don't act like men anymore," from women, or even "I'm more manly than most men." They want the machismo.
Are they really so fucking stupid that they think the only men that can love them are gay?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,966
#59
I like the idea of establishing clinical treatment, but how does that work when one of the symptoms is the avoidance of treatment?
My psych degree is nearly a decade in the past for me, but numerous disorders have symptoms that include avoidance of treatment or lack of follow-up. For instance, schizophrenics and manic depressives are notorious for going off their meds. That's not to say there aren't reasons for that or that everyone with those conditions does so, but it's a widely acknowledged observation that any psychologist with proper training makes sure to incorporate into their interactions with patients (doubly so with meds, since in the vast majority of states that further involves a psychiatrist).

Of course, those are meds, which aren't part of every treatment and would be highly unlikely in treatment regimens for what we're discussing in here (barring comorbid conditions that would necessitate their use).

Sawneeks is pretty spot-on with this and likely further findings being more about trying to shift the cultural conversation, thereby perhaps opening the door for men to seek treatment or, probably more likely, for guardians and officials such as parents and teachers being more likely to broach the topic and be on the lookout regarding the boys they raise/teach. Honestly, the likelihood of these moves affecting fully-grown adult men is a crapshoot; much more important for these findings to influence how we approach children, adolescents, and those not yet born.

It even talks about because of these societal constructs men are more likely to be diagnosed with something like ADHD. To any psychologists out there, is this kind of admitting that ADHD diagnoses for many men need to be revisited?
There's a big, long-term reevaluation of ADHD/ADD in general going on for some years now. A big part of that is the cultural component regarding gender.

For instance, and I believe it was Peggy Ornstein that wrote about this in one of her books, look at how we approach behavior between boys and girls. Ornstein (I think) wrote about going to one of those hands-on science centers and observing how little boys and girls were encouraged or discouraged to play and learn. She noted that parents of little girls often dissuaded their daughters from getting dirty or messy (such as splashing water in a physics display) because the cultural standard is that girls are taught to be clean, neat, and demure. On the other hand, parents absolutely praised their sons for the same actions they discouraged their daughters from doing. We see that in a lot scenarios, and it sends really mixed messages to both girls and boys.

Namely, boys are encouraged to be rambunctious generally but that is frowned upon in certain settings, which leads to over diagnosis of ADHD. Simultaneously, girls are trained to be quiet and orderly, so even if they have ADD/ADHD they don't present the same way. As such, we probably assume ADHD in too many boys, and too little in girls.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,686
#61
My psych degree is nearly a decade in the past for me, but numerous disorders have symptoms that include avoidance of treatment or lack of follow-up. For instance, schizophrenics and manic depressives are notorious for going off their meds. That's not to say there aren't reasons for that or that everyone with those conditions does so, but it's a widely acknowledged observation that any psychologist with proper training makes sure to incorporate into their interactions with patients (doubly so with meds, since in the vast majority of states that further involves a psychiatrist).

Of course, those are meds, which aren't part of every treatment and would be highly unlikely in treatment regimens for what we're discussing in here (barring comorbid conditions that would necessitate their use).

Sawneeks is pretty spot-on with this and likely further findings being more about trying to shift the cultural conversation, thereby perhaps opening the door for men to seek treatment or, probably more likely, for guardians and officials such as parents and teachers being more likely to broach the topic and be on the lookout regarding the boys they raise/teach. Honestly, the likelihood of these moves affecting fully-grown adult men is a crapshoot; much more important for these findings to influence how we approach children, adolescents, and those not yet born.
Currently finishing up my Bachelors in Psych but I had the opportunity last year to interview an individual working with the LA County Department of Mental Health and there are steps being made in that direction. When I talked to them this program was slightly different but they have something called We Rise which aims to promote Mental Health awareness through art, music, and so on. They also have the Each Mind Matters campaign and something called the Profiles of Hope, a web-based interview series where high profile individuals are interviewed about their struggle with Mental Illness and how they have kept going. On the Profiles of Hope page they have this

We’re committed to creating inclusive communities as well as eliminating stigma and discrimination.

Our film series, Profiles of Hope, promotes an anti-stigma message for those diagnosed with mental illness.

We seek the stories of high-profile personalities, willing to share their experiences and struggles with mental illness, substance abuse, or any challenge they encountered to their emotional “wellness.”

The Profiles of Hope project shows just how common it is for individuals and families to suffer the stigma of a mental illness, and how important it is to reach out to a compassionate community.
While a lot of these programs are focused on Mental Illness awareness they also promote the idea of keeping your mind mentally healthy as well.

A lot of folks in this thread are saying this kind of thing is obvious and it's only because we have been made aware of that fact. Many people don't have that luxury. While there has been evidence to support this for some time having it be formally introduced into the APA means it will hopefully get a lot more formal attention and as a byproduct, more social awareness.

There are conversations that need to be had about how toxic masculinity changes by ethnic background, socioeconomic status, and so on but this is a really good step forward.
 
Oct 27, 2017
397
United States
#63
Like how journalists mocked HW Bush for being a wimp and he went on to commit war crimes he was never charged for and destabilized the middle east
History is full of men who were called weak and proceeded to destroy millions of lives. Hitler is another prime example of this. Dude started a genicide because his dad called him a pansy and that his paintings sucked.

Right? Here in the south this will be another thing we'll fight to the bitter end against. Even women down here buy into toxic bullshit.
I live here and it's pretty bad. There's a reason why I don't hang out with a lot of straight dudes. And raising kids is even rougher because the boys already have that mentality and it's hard making sure my brother doesn't conform to that crap.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,738
Canada
#64
I know it's easy for us to go "yeah, no shit", but for the average person this would be new information for them. The toxic parts of masculinity are entrenched deep into society and any break away from it will label you as weak or "not a real man" and can affect you in various parts of your life.
It's not NEW information, really. Just because a person doesn't retain the information doesn't constantly make it "new" to them. They ALL know or knew, most just don't seem to care and it doesn't stick with them. They're in the same bracket as the "I am who I am" elderly racist relative and they've got enough support around them (usually just through silence about it) to keep them that way, just like said elderly racist relative.

Biggest “no shit” I’ve read. Though I do understand the difficulty with getting men to accept that some of their behavior is toxic.
When their conceptual understanding of masculinity central to their personal identity, it's like pulling out their linchpins and watching their wheels come off, yes.
 
Nov 3, 2017
2,043
#67
In regards to homophobia, I've noticed as a gay man, when straight guys get in a fight, "faggot" almost always gets shouted out. But I have never seen a hetero woman in a fight or argument hurl, "Lesbian!", woman don't go straight to homophobic slurs.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,083
Glasgow, Scotland
#69
“Guidelines for the Psychological Practice with Boys and Men”

Recommendations... Grow the fuck up already.
Unfortunately, some men never grow up.
It's sad but true and while this will be wildly generalising, living in central belt Scotland there are a lot of man children about and they are almost entirely working class which probably makes sense when you look into all the factors. These are men who, while conducting themselves well enough in their careers are still just pretty much concerned with getting drunk and watching/talking about sport (99% football) all of the time. While it isn't up to me to judge (but I will) their world and sphere of knowledge is often woefully lacking and along with that comes extreme ignorance or indeed open hostility to anything different and outside of that sphere. So a guy can't like musicals and women can't partake in their past-times either, oh and absolutely don't cry.. It is a blatantly obvious thing but I do hope society as a whole challenges it and lets men know they don't need to be these stereotypes of the alpha male.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,813
'merica
#70
I did psych and sociology undergrads (plus poli sci and English) so it’s good to see interdisciplinary approaches emerging more often. You can see a yearning from the CDC to approach gun violence from an epidemiological standpoint coming from that same line of thought.

More and more this is going to be necessary. When I did my first round of undergrads between 04 and 09, sociology departments were hitting this topic up very heavily and it’s been refreshing to see it filter across to its siblings.
Yep, Sociology was my minor because I thought it would help with expanding my field and study. There is a lot to learn from studying both and they really do compliment each other. I've been pushing for this kind of thing to others when I discuss it with them. Part of my graduate interests is working with low income and minority groups and developing therapies that can be more focused on the struggles they particularly face daily like racism and income inequality.
 

Doober

The Fallen
Jun 10, 2018
1,211
#71
Are they really so fucking stupid that they think the only men that can love them are gay?
I think we're at a weird cultural crossroads where women have begun kicking their traditional gender roles in earnest and exploring more assertive, "masculine" qualities, while men have barely just begun to push back against their own.

It doesn't help that while women are mostly celebrated and empowered for doing this, men are not. Even some feminist women give men shit for not being "manly" enough.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,433
Toronto
#73
I know it's easy for us to go "yeah, no shit", but for the average person this would be new information for them. The toxic parts of masculinity are entrenched deep into society and any break away from it will label you as weak or "not a real man" and can affect you in various parts of your life.
And beyond that, it's exactly the way many people like it, and they will refuse to even consider moving beyond it. "That's just how society is supposed to be structured. It's how nature intended." Then they're going to outright reject or diminish the idea that it's causing anybody harm.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,291
#75
There is a lot to be said about how women respond to the masculinity in men, and how that response drives to many behaviors.
This sounds a bit like "it's women's fault because they're attracted to masculine men." Not sure if that was your intention, but I hope you realize that our patriarchal societal norms are what drives common attraction factors, not the other way around.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,915
#76
I don't understand why they try to spread the ideology to others. If the idea is to be the most masculine man in your peer group, wouldn't you support homosexuality and/or femininity among other men?

By using peer pressure to influence other men to be more masculine, you needlessly create more competition for yourself. That is what I don't understand about masculinity. If you want to be more masculine, yet you influence others to do the same, the outcome is that you didn't gain any "advantage" relative to others.
it is about ego going haywire. "If i am the best other people must emulate me. if they are ok being different how can my way be the best? better prove i'm the best by making those who are different fall in line."
 
#77
Wtf is "masculine ideology". You can be a guy without doing all of that extra stuff lmao. People are strange
This is literally the whole point of the OP and all the attached documents. So, so many men feel like they're not "manly" or "a real man" without meeting a masculine ideology, which leads to a ton of psychological problems for themselves, and effects their partners and children in harmful ways.
 
#78
This is literally the whole point of the OP and all the attached documents. So, so many men feel like they're not "manly" or "a real man" without meeting a masculine ideology, which leads to a ton of psychological problems for themselves, and effects their partners and children in harmful ways.
I'll just never understand how people become like that
 
Oct 27, 2017
397
United States
#79
This sounds a bit like "it's women's fault because they're attracted to masculine men." Not sure if that was your intention, but I hope you realize that our patriarchal societal norms are what drives common attraction factors, not the other way around.
No I think they meant that some women also fall into the trappings of toxic masculinity by encouraging whether knowingly or not. There are lots of times when a young boy expresses their emotions, usually through crying, to thier mother and are completely shut down with "Stop that. You're a boy and boys don't cry". Or when women tell guys that their too soft or too big of an pussy for them, which only strengthen the idea that the guy has to double down and be "manly" otherwise they'll never find someone to be with. You'll see that a lot in teenagers who are still trying to find themselves and will do anything to fit in or get laid even if it does them more harm then good.

Now I'm not saying this is on women to fix or it's their fault, it's just a by product of the system that we live in and we have to encourage and educate women who aren't as socially woke as your average feminist to recognize that they also have an effect on how masculinity is presented in society.