NBC News: Inside Bernie-world's war on Beto O'Rourke

mescalineeyes

Member
May 12, 2018
2,946
Vienna
Go check his website. Pretty boiler plate standard Dem policies. He is against the wall, he is against the tax cut for the rich, he is for Medicare For All, he is for being in the Paris Climate Change agreement, he is for appointing liberal judges, etc, etc.


So anyone but Bernie, Warren or Tulsi. Which I agree with. Beto, Biden, Klobuchar, Kamala, Gillibrand, and so one would all beat him.

Of the "top tier' candidates the only one that would lose to Trump is Bernie and Warren.
Bernie is the most popular politician in the country.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,782
Ann Arbor, MI
Also I’m 100% positive anyone reasonable with a D in front of their name will annihilate trump.
So anyone but Bernie or Tulsi.
You keep saying this but you’re in here banking on betos personality
Beto supporters see him as the best option to beat Trump. They don't see him as their lefist savior.

They see him from a mostly pragmatic perspective. That he has the assets best served to win a landslide against Trump to help coattails to build the house margins and win back the senate.

Bernie is the most popular politician in the country.
So thats why Obama and Biden have stronger favorables than Bernie?
 

XMonkey

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,355
Beto hasn’t even announced his platform as a Presidential candidate, but sure let’s all have pages of policy arguments about him like he has.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,782
Ann Arbor, MI
Your major post on this I’ve was devoid of any policy. All you ever talk about Beto is his personality.
Because his policies are standard Democratic policies. He is for the same things all mainstream Democrats are for. He is against the same things Trump does all mainstream Democrats are against. What is there to talk about? Look at Obama. There, that's Beto's policy perspective pretty through and through.

His defining asset is he combines that Obama type policy perspective with charisma and a down to earth personality which makes him extremely electable.
 

DiceHands

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,019
Dont get me wrong, I like Bernie and all, but I just wish everyone from the 2016 election would fuck off for a bit.
 

Helio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,289
Because his policies are standard Democratic policies. He is for the same things all mainstream Democrats are for. He is against the same things Trump does all mainstream Democrats are against. What is there to talk about? Look at Obama. There, that's Beto's policy perspective pretty through and through.

His defining asset is he combines that Obama type policy perspective with charisma and a down to earth personality which makes him extremely electable.
So just a cookie cutter democrat with a nice smile.
 

Suiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,616
I can’t change my avatar to an awesome actress now?
Susan Sarandon: ‘I thought Hillary was very dangerous. If she'd won, we'd be at war’
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/nov/26/susan-sarandon-i-thought-hillary-was-very-dangerous-if-shed-won-wed-be-at-war


How Many Bernie Backers Would Refuse to Vote for Hillary Clinton?
Susan Sarandon says she might prefer Donald Trump because he’d bring about revolution faster. There’s little evidence that many Democrats would join her.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/susan-sarandon-bernie-sanders/475875/
 

iiicon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
603
Canada
Also I’m 100% positive anyone reasonable with a D in front of their name will annihilate trump.
This is where I'm at, which is why I hope America selects someone with a history of campaigning for policies that address the numerous systemic inequalities currently inherent to American life.

America is moving left. Policy polls support this. Moderate Dems with a problematic past and an eye on the presidency building their campaign on progressive policy - Booker on a jobs guarantee, Harris on single-payer health-care and a living wage, both on a Green New Deal - support this. I don't trust either as much as Sanders, but they're reflective of a Democratic understanding that the way forward is with comprehensive progressive policy because it's good and popular. O'Rourke or Biden aren't there, and they'd be a mistake.

A thing left often unsaid while Democrats rush to the White House is that the Democrats, as a national party, need senators and governors in addition to the presidency. Beto O'Rourke, Texas senator isn't a bad thing to aspire to.
 

Helio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,289
Susan Sarandon: ‘I thought Hillary was very dangerous. If she'd won, we'd be at war’


https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/nov/26/susan-sarandon-i-thought-hillary-was-very-dangerous-if-shed-won-wed-be-at-war


How Many Bernie Backers Would Refuse to Vote for Hillary Clinton?
Susan Sarandon says she might prefer Donald Trump because he’d bring about revolution faster. There’s little evidence that many Democrats would join her.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/susan-sarandon-bernie-sanders/475875/
So I can’t have Susan as my avatar because she said that? I don’t see the use in getting angry over it,m.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,782
Ann Arbor, MI
I can’t change my avatar to an awesome actress now?
One who worked her ass off to help elect Trump after Bernie lost.

Jill Stein is a Russian stooge whose only job was to try and help elect Trump.

And no that isnt hyperbole. She was LITERALLY a Russian stooge in the pocket of Putin. And publicly embraced being so.

Having her as an avatar is no better than having Sean Hannity. Both worked hard to help elect Trump.
 

thefro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,683
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/12/why-are-democrats-trying-to-annihilate-an-beto-campaign

This article makes some pretty good points and is worth a read.

Peter Hamby said:
Anyone who bothered to actually cover O’Rourke and Ted Cruz campaigning in Texas knows that O’Rourke’s single biggest applause line on the stump was about banishing corporate PAC money in politics. His ability to raise a gargantuan amount of cash from small donors online is precisely the reason he was credible on that message—and would be in 2020. O’Rourke ran openly on passing Medicare for all, an issue that Sanders successfully pushed into the mainstream of the Democratic Party. There’s literally a Daily Kos headline that we are all free to Google: “Beto O’Rourke (D) Is All in for Bernie Sanders’s Single-Payer Health-Care Bill.” As the Houston Chronicle has noted, O’Rourke also split with Obama on a number of national-security decisions, and voted against re-authorizing FISA warrants allowing intelligence agencies to spy on Americans.

People who don’t live in Brooklyn’s Cobble Hill might also be aware that O’Rourke has been a progressive leader on immigration reform and criminal justice, fatal blind spots for Sanders as he struggled with minority voters in 2016. O’Rourke ran for Congress on abolishing private prisons and decriminalizing marijuana. Hailing from the U.S.-Mexico border, he’s long been a fierce advocate for vulnerable immigrants, and was one of few Democrats willing to speak out against Obama’s deportation policies.

The point here is that Sanders, or his supporters, do not get to have a monopoly on what it means to be a progressive in 2020. That term had its own logic in 2016, defined against the backdrop of the fading Obama administration and a head-to-head rivalry with Clinton and her Goldman Sachs paychecks. Today, Trump is president, the world is different, and candidates who run headlong into campaigns fighting the last war always lose.
Peter Hamby said:
Yes, O’Rourke will have to explain himself to progressive hard-liners in a Democratic primary. He’ll have to be transparent about those oil and gas donations. He’ll have to decide whether he supports the Green New Deal. O’Rourke, too, will have to explain why he voted with Trump 30 percent of the time, just as Sherrod Brown will also have to explain why he voted with Trump 30 percent of the time, and just as Sanders will have to explain why he voted with Trump 14 percent of the time. O’Rourke will have to explain why he only passed three bills during his six years in the House minority, just as Sanders will have to explain why he only passed one bill during a quarter century in the House and Senate. If Sanders gets to say he’s evolved on immigration and issues of racial inequality, O’Rourke should be allowed to evolve, too.

It’s just very hard to make the argument that O’Rourke isn’t a progressive, unless you live your life according to an ideological checklist, and somehow believe that the midterms “sucked ass” for Democrats this year. O’Rourke’s biggest vulnerability, in the context of a primary, might actually be that he seems to appreciate nuance, the vibrations of politics, and the radical notion that you might want to reason through a complex question before rendering judgment upon it. Primaries, of course, do not usually reward nuance or contrarianism—and the window for freethinking in politics is getting smaller by the day as the virtue-signalers of Twitter hunt for their next moralizing outrage.
 

y2dvd

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,628
Susan Sarandon: ‘I thought Hillary was very dangerous. If she'd won, we'd be at war’
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/nov/26/susan-sarandon-i-thought-hillary-was-very-dangerous-if-shed-won-wed-be-at-war


How Many Bernie Backers Would Refuse to Vote for Hillary Clinton?
Susan Sarandon says she might prefer Donald Trump because he’d bring about revolution faster. There’s little evidence that many Democrats would join her.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/susan-sarandon-bernie-sanders/475875/
She has a record of being hawkish.
 

Soul Skater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,654
His actions this year suggest he is aware that it is time to pass the torch to a new generation. I seriously doubt he will run and if he does he would not do very well or even close to his 2016 primary results.
Bernie’s essentially said that he’s looking at the field to see if anyone can successfully communicate what the party needs to in order to win before deciding

I don’t know who in Bernie’s view that would be. He doesn’t have anyone to pass the torch to. He still doesn’t have any real allies in the party, that aren’t in their 20s at least.
 

Boiled Goose

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,782
I'm really fucking tired of hypocritical calls for unity and bullshit accusations of purity tests.

The primary will be used to find the strongest possible candidate and THEN we can call for unity to defeat the gop.

Centrists just love crying when they get criticized and accuse the left of purity tests but left is relentlessly attacked. Criticism is not a purity test.n
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,782
Ann Arbor, MI
I'm really fucking tired of hypocritical calls for unity and bullshit accusations of purity tests.

The primary will be used to find the strongest possible candidate and THEN we can call for unity to defeat the gop.

Centrists just love crying when they get criticized and accuse the left of purity tests but left is relentlessly attacked. Criticism is not a purity test.n
I don’t know of any centrists being criticized. Beto is and has never been close to being a centrist. He is a progressive with a progressive voting record. Manchin? Sure. Biden? A lot closer to centrist than Beto at least.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,087
Yeah we have a true leftist with a wonderful track record on being anti capitalist, anti racist and pro lgbtqa+ in tulsi gabbard

He isn't going to win, again. And whether or not hes responsible for it or not he is a cancer to the party because a bunch of his followers are crazy. But if he runs Ill legit enjoy voting against him and seeing him lose again. I really like Beto, he would definitely get my vote.

"New blood"
"Younger candidates, no more old people"

Right?
 

Helio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,289
Doesn’t matter if she changed any minds she tried her hardest to help elect Trump. She campaigned to try and help Trump win. How is that admirable?
She wasn’t a surrogate or anything and she didn’t help him win. Like her, don’t like her. I’m gonna keep Aunt Agatha as my avvy
 

TaySan

Member
Dec 10, 2018
4,356
I'm really fucking tired of hypocritical calls for unity and bullshit accusations of purity tests.

The primary will be used to find the strongest possible candidate and THEN we can call for unity to defeat the gop.

Centrists just love crying when they get criticized and accuse the left of purity tests but left is relentlessly attacked. Criticism is not a purity test.n
This thread is going in circles at this point.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,245
Because his policies are standard Democratic policies. He is for the same things all mainstream Democrats are for. He is against the same things Trump does all mainstream Democrats are against. What is there to talk about? Look at Obama. There, that's Beto's policy perspective pretty through and through.

His defining asset is he combines that Obama type policy perspective with charisma and a down to earth personality which makes him extremely electable.
He's for all the standard Democrat things, as long as we ignore the times he broke from Democrats and voted with Republicans. Even if we grant him a do-over and try to argue that he will move left for national appeal, there's no reason as of yet to believe that he's just Obama, but white, or that we should be content with another Obama.

You're basing your support of this guy off of photographs and a pretty close race in Texas. But if you were from Texas, you'd have seen that people have had these problems with Beto for a while now. I've seen "Betos" running in Austin, Dallas, Denton. They are not the kind of thing I want anymore.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,782
Ann Arbor, MI
You're basing your support of this guy off of photographs and a pretty close race in Texas. But if you were from Texas, you'd have seen that people have had these problems with Beto for a while now. I've seen "Betos" running in Austin, Dallas, Denton. They are not the kind of thing I want anymore.
I grew up in Texas. Most of my family is there. I have family members who campaigned for him. I didn’t just pick up on Beto this summer because of viral videos.

As someone who followed his election closely, yeah he was a progressive in his policy goals. Through and through. On every single major issue.
 

StoveOven

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
972
I don't know why someone would base their primary vote off of "electability" when the least electable man of all time is sitting in the oval office. I have my issues with Sanders (although I'd support him before any of the other front runners), but at least the people who support him think he would be a good president. I don't know if I can say the same about Beto supporters. They just think he can win an election.
 

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,893
New Jersey
He isn't going to win, again. And whether or not hes responsible for it or not he is a cancer to the party because a bunch of his followers are crazy. But if he runs Ill legit enjoy voting against him and seeing him lose again. I really like Beto, he would definitely get my vote.

"New blood"
"Younger candidates, no more old people"

Right?
Was that meant to be a reply to my tulsi joke post lol

I don't know why someone would base their primary vote off of "electability" when the least electable man of all time is sitting in the oval office. I have my issues with Sanders (although I'd support him before any of the other front runners), but at least the people who support him think he would be a good president. I don't know if I can say the same about Beto supporters. They just think he can win an election.
Evreyone indluding myself

Who thought of trump as unelectable just underesrimated how awful and how many many (white) americans their are.
 

TerminusFox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,851
Y’all need to start defining EXACTLY what the fuck centrism is to you. Like give a seriously detailed reason because to me, it’s as if a centrist is anyone who criticizes Bernie or calls out Garbage super far left wing radical ideas for what they are.

You can’t sit and call Nancy Pelosi for example a freaking centrist when her district is San Francisco, and expect to be taken seriously.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,991
Y’all need to start defining EXACTLY what the fuck centrism is to you. Like give a seriously detailed reason because to me, it’s as if a centrist is anyone who criticizes Bernie or calls out Garbage super far left wing radical ideas for what they are.

You can’t sit and call Nancy Pelosi for example a freaking centrist when her district is San Francisco, and expect to be taken seriously.
It's done because they want to signal their "angry leftist socialist permanent minority" perspective instead of actually have an actual discussion.
 

medinaria

Member
Oct 30, 2017
325
honestly, that article's actually kind of awful, and willfully misrepresents data and quotes in order to make a lot of its conclusions.

example 1:

Sanders boasted 96 percent name recognition among Iowa Democrats, but he was the top choice of just 19 percent of them. Sanders also has the third-highest unfavorable ratings of any Democrat, behind Clinton and Michael Bloomberg (who, yes, might hilariously run for president as a Democrat). In other words: Democrats like Sanders. But when presented with other candidates, they’re happy to look elsewhere.
the issue: the data says sanders has the third-highest unfavorable ratings of democrats. true. what is conspicuously left out here is that the vast majority of the surveyed candidates also have 30+% "don't know" responses. when you normalize unfavorables relative to the number of people who have opinions on the candidate at all, you get different results and he's solidly middle-of-the-pack. (and this assumes that people without opinions follow the same distribution as the people with them, which is just kinda a thing you have to do)

example 2:

Christman, it should be noted, is the Chapo guy who got ripshit drunk on their Election Night show and ranted, “Democrats suck ass. There is no hope in the modern party system. Kill yourself, and kill everyone around you.” Democrats won the popular vote that night by roughly 10 million votes and gained 40 House seats, installing several Democrats who support tuition-free college, a Green New Deal, and Medicare for all. Sucks ass, bro.
aside from making it incredibly clear where this writer's bias is, this is a clear failure of reading. christman's quote doesn't say "democrats suck ass because they don't win elections". christman's position is that democrats, ideologically, suck ass and are incapable of taking the bold and massive steps necessary to actually fix the world's problems. that's why he's saying "democrats suck ass and therefore the world is hopeless and you should go full jonestown", and this is being completely lied about in order to generate a narrative that matches with his article.

(also, acknowledging in your article that the dude is visibly drunk out of his mind and then eviscerating his argument with facts and reason is some pretty little league shit. like, congratulations, I guess? you beat a dude who could barely sit up straight?)

example 3:

The point here is that Sanders, or his supporters, do not get to have a monopoly on what it means to be a progressive in 2020. That term had its own logic in 2016, defined against the backdrop of the fading Obama administration and a head-to-head rivalry with Clinton and her Goldman Sachs paychecks. Today, Trump is president, the world is different, and candidates who run headlong into campaigns fighting the last war always lose.
the issue here is that "progressive" still means something. it still stands for a (relatively) concrete set of policy proposals and a general ideological outlook on what should be done by the government. trump is president (factually true), the world is different (factually... mostly true), but those positions still exist. the notion that "sanders and his supporters do not get to have a monopoly on what it means to be a progressive" is fundamentally the same tortured logic that clinton's campaign used to argue that, actually, she's a progressive. words have meanings. moving four years into the future doesn't mysteriously make them stop having meanings. this leads into example 4:

There’s only one thing we can predict with airtight certainty: whoever wastes their time re-litigating the Bernie-vs.-Hillary wars will absolutely get left behind.
we're not doing that

the assertion here is that bernie sanders supporters are engaged in the fucking blood war or something against the evil forces of clintondom. that's not what this argument is about. we're not trying to re-litigate the 2016 primaries. we're trying to litigate the 2020 primaries. which is important and necessary.
 

Barzul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,085
You can always tell the people who have little clue about Southern politics for Democrats. A democrat winning statewide in Texas or even coming within 4-5 points was considered like a generation away. Beto coming within 2 points was basically thought to be impossible. If Beto was on the ticket in any "blue state" in the country he'd win. When I was canvassing for him here, you would talk to Republicans that voted for Trump that were considering or would vote for him by sheer force of his personality. Mind I'm in liberal Austin, but still. Once Beto's plank comes out as long as it's to the left of Obama, could even be to the right of Bernie as long as he promises to push for some sort of public option Medicare, then I'd be satisfied.
 

Ithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,283
You can always tell the people who have little clue about Southern politics for Democrats. A democrat winning statewide in Texas or even coming within 4-5 points was considered like a generation away. Beto coming within 2 points was basically thought to be impossible. If Beto was on the ticket in any "blue state" in the country he'd win. When I was canvassing for him here, you would talk to Republicans that voted for Trump that were considering or would vote for him by sheer force of his personality. Mind I'm in liberal Austin, but still. Once Beto's plank comes out as long as it's to the left of Obama, could even be to the right of Bernie as long as he promises to push for some sort of public option Medicare, then I'd be satisfied.
Not that Bernie would know anything about winning in the south.
 

medinaria

Member
Oct 30, 2017
325
You can always tell the people who have little clue about Southern politics for Democrats. A democrat winning statewide in Texas or even coming within 4-5 points was considered like a generation away. Beto coming within 2 points was basically thought to be impossible. If Beto was on the ticket in any "blue state" in the country he'd win. When I was canvassing for him here, you would talk to Republicans that voted for Trump that were considering or would vote for him by sheer force of his personality. Mind I'm in liberal Austin, but still. Once Beto's plank comes out as long as it's to the left of Obama, could even be to the right of Bernie as long as he promises to push for some sort of public option Medicare, then I'd be satisfied.
I made a post a page or so back, but like... if you look at the election results, beto improved on clinton's 2016 numbers in almost exactly the same amount as the nationwide numbers improved.

fundamentally, while it feels like he really pulled that race into something incredibly close, extrapolating the national vote trends would have predicted a result that was like .5% lower than what he ended up with.
 

Vas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,662
Not if the losing side gets butthurt and stays home as Dems are wont to do.
Yep. And now thanks to them, the Supreme Court is loaded in such a way that Bernie's vision will never happen in his lifetime. Liberals aren't as smart as we think, sometimes. Bernie's campaign and supporters better stand up to GOP/Russian misinformation campaigns this time instead of promoting them and then falling prey to them themselves.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,245
I grew up in Texas. Most of my family is there. I have family members who campaigned for him. I didn’t just pick up on Beto this summer because of viral videos.

As someone who followed his election closely, yeah he was a progressive in his policy goals. Through and through. On every single major issue.
Surely you see parallels to Wendy Davis here, then. Why do you think it is that Beto (who absolutely did a better job with his campaign than Davis did, I'm not discounting that) has so much pull with young bourgie liberals, but has failed to pick up support from working-class and hispanic voters?
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,991
Surely you see parallels to Wendy Davis here, then. Why do you think it is that Beto (who absolutely did a better job with his campaign than Davis did, I'm not discounting that) has so much pull with young bourgie liberals, but has failed to pick up support from working-class and hispanic voters?
Support dropped relative to Clinton w/ Hispanic voters was due to his opponent being Ted Cruz. The idea that he had a problem with "working class" voters is something you've invented though. He wouldn't have improved on Clinton's numbers in the way he did if he was having a "class problem". And Wendy Davis flopped hard, Beto didn't.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,782
Ann Arbor, MI
People like to ignore the fact Cruz is fairly popular on Texas, among Hispanics to boot.

National views on cruz are very different than in texas. He crushed Trump in Texas after all.