Another great video from a great channel, and to my knowledge the first one to discuss video games, yet alone with the writer of said video game as a guest.
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Neil Druckmann guests on 'Lessons from the Screenplay' to discuss The Last of Us and storytelling in video games
- Thread starter SunBroDave
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Another great video from a great channel, and to my knowledge the first one to discuss video games, yet alone with the writer of said video game as a guest.
Good video and idea for a series. but I honestly think inviting someone who has used the medium in creative and unique ways to present a story that can only be told in video games would have been more appropriate. I think unlike most people, I see The Last of Us as a regression of storytelling in games due to the shift towards more static movie-like methods of telling a story. A great technical achievement to be sure, but not something I would put on a pedastal to show what the medium is capable of. I hope TLOU2 has more enviornmental storytelling, because the glimpses of it in TLOU1 were promising. I guess the Souls series has rubbed off on me in that way.
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All this hyperbole is going to result in is no one really listening to the rest of your argument and discussing it reasonably.
Just stating my opinion, and to me it's not hyperbole at all. Druckmann is a great visionary and director, but like Kojima I don't think he is good as a storyteller in the context of video games.
I don't think Souls have good stories, I just think the way they are presented is a much better representation of video games as a medium.
Lmao.
Imagine trying to drop shade on a man and then saying Souls has good stories.
Thanks, I didn't realise that.
Which is fine, but surely you realise that saying this about one of the highest rated and most awarded games ever - largely off the back of its storytelling - is going to be pretty inflammatory. Which again, is fine - all I was saying that if you were actually interested in talking about the different ways you can tell stories in video games, you'd have much more luck without that first sentence.
Noted. Reading back, it did come across as too confrontational than what I intended. Changed it to something more reasonable.
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Personally I'm really not interested in fanfictioning my way through meaningless and vague as fuck "details" scattered throughout the environment, especially if that's literally all that a game has going for to tell its "story".
Thankfully there are different kind of ways to do things, and enough genres in videogames for us to enjoy what's to our taste rather than crap on what's not.
Also, TLOU had plenty of storytelling going on outside of cutscenes, and a comparison to whatever Kojima writes is dowright insulting.
Edit : I was responding to the original post, didn't realize you edited it.
Yup...never got all the praise for the storytelling in Souls games. It's not interesting enough for me to piece together the lore of a world, I'd much prefer to play through TLOU style of storytelling. I love Souls games but not for Story.
TLOU's story, as it is told in the game, can only be told in a video game. So much of the emotional investment, sense of a journey and connecting with Ellie comes from the hours spent alongside her, her helping in combat, the contextual comments that happen during exploration and combat, the gradual shift in player/NPC relationship between Joel and Ellie, the shift in player character during Winter, etc
If you're only think the storytelling, and the praise for its story, comes from a focus on cutscenes, you're looking at the game's story through a very narrow lens. TLOU is so praised because of how it so effectively tells its story and character development through gameplay, while seamlessly contextualizing the heavier developments of the cutscenes with the smaller intimate moments during gameplay. There is little to no dissonance between gameplay and cutscene
The strength of the storytelling in the Souls games and Bloodborne is how they contextualize story and tone through mechanics and gameplay. World, combat, art and enemy design, the layout and path through levels, and so on all play a role in building and reinforcing the narrative as much as the lore descriptions do. The creators at From do a masterful job at creating this sense of a narrative tapestry, and each step forward, every boss slain, every new area discovered or exotic weapon found, is another thread sown in this grand mesh of atmosphere and plot. I'd argue Bloodborne and the first Dark Souls does this most effectively
I'm really not receptive to this at all, but obviously plenty of people are, and I believe it has merit as a form of storytelling. Also I loved Bloodborne ; the atmosphere and combat were enough for me.
We really shouldn't be pitting these two against each other in the first place, but I couldn't help but respond.
I don't see how The Last of Us doesn't do a lot of environmental story telling. Sure TLOU uses cut scenes to convey its biggest moments, but its connective and interstitial story is told through gameplay situations and level design; and those moments are arguably as important as its biggest for a story like the one in TLOU.
For example, the beginning of Winter is a slow paced hunting section that requires some patience, and that comes off a big cliff hanger. Players would typically want to rush through this section to find out what happened but the gameplay event forces players to slow down.
Also, the video mentions "empathy through control" in its first four minutes which is a big factor in TLOU's story.
No reason to suspect he will. The writing and acting in the most recent game he worked on (U4) is still on another level
This is your opinion, cool. And the following is mine. I'm so sick of seeing people like yourself bring up "what's best for the medium" 30 to 40 years ago nobody thought video games could be capable of doing the kind of stuff that is possible right now. Stop acting like there's some unique guideline needing to be followed for creators to be recognized as people who represent the best of this medium.
I don't believe if this topic was regarding a developer that uses the medium the the way you think he should be used anyone who are fans of the last of us / Neil would make such a post as the one I'm quoting.
This chip on the shoulder some people have regarding certain studios who's preference is in using film-like cinematics to push storytelling within video games has gotta stop. It's been a part of video games for decades, and it's not going anywhere.
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? i actually agree with them
TLOU is a very conventional story driven game, it was a muscle flex in the ps3 days (and the remaster still looks good), but it doesn't really explot what the videogame can do as a medium. and it's fine, but at the same time i don't think tlou really shines in that
i also found the story quite bland but that's on me, the game tries to focus more on the characters anyway
love the moving goalpost people do just because the havel avatar lol
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Uncharted 4 has some fantastic environmental story telling, up there with the best. Almost all the Avery story and his descent into madness is told this way. It's one of the least things I'm worried about in Part 2.
The way in which the game turns the Uncharted series criticism (you're not an explorer, you're a mass murderer!) into plot subtext leading up to the finale of the game is telling a story in a way that really wouldn't work in any other medium in much the same way Bioshock 1's third act turn was achieved.
You've just said a whole load of nothing. TLoU explores the medium plenty for it's story and especially character development, some of the biggest characters moment are either done through gameplay or strengthen by it, a few good examples in the video, that doesn't mean it uses it only, because that wouldn't achieve much, outside of a worse overall experience probably.
Also goal post moving, where?
This idea that games can't use any "static" devices to tell a story is always bizarre to me. Or that cutscenes are universally bad.
Not even sure what it means either or what the alternative would be. Games as long as TLOU (15-20 hours) or longer probably wouldn't work with zero breaks for story. Hell, for really long games (like 100+ hours) that sounds straight up terrible.
Not even sure what it means either or what the alternative would be. Games as long as TLOU (15-20 hours) or longer probably wouldn't work with zero breaks for story. Hell, for really long games (like 100+ hours) that sounds straight up terrible.
I agree with both of these points.
Some of the criticism of TLOU is reminiscent of the criticism of Birdman and Inarritu movies in general: long shots for the sake of long shots, craft for the sake of craft, without thought to what these techniques actually contribute narratively, thematically, or anything else ... or, in TLOU's case, strong cinematic storytelling for the sake of strong cinematic storytelling, without thought to how that emphasis actually advances games as a storytelling medium.
And I get it. When I first played TLOU, the combination of linearity and realism literally made me dizzy, because it took awhile to calibrate the game's artificiality against everything else it was trying to accomplish. The thing is, you absolutely can't separate TLOU from the fact that it's an interactive experience, and people let the spectacle of its performances, cutscenes, and so on distract them from that.
And yeah, building on the point about the Souls game, they're the best examples of thematic coherence out there. Especially Bloodborne, in which everything from the smallest environmental details to the most basic gameplay mechanics all reinforce the game's themes brilliantly.
Man thinks TLOU doesn't tell its story through gameplay, man watches video that shows how it actually does, man comes to forum and says "I wish they get a game that tell the story through gameplay next time".
Love this channel, got to watch it
I completely agree. I think that is really strange when people talk about TLoU "revolutionizing" game stories and "changing" narrative in games when it does what games do at least from Metal Gear Solid 1. I'm not saying it's wrong and that games shouldn't do that but it's nothing new
And I'm going to get a lot of hate from that but it's also just a very average zombie story. Great motion capturing and great actors but a standard zombie narrative glued in with a below average shooter
But I really like Neil Druckmann and I think that he did a great job in finishing the Uncharted series - nothing revolutionary also, but good, and in the end of the day I'll stay play Part 2 because he wrote charismatic characters and I want to see Joel have a bad end and see the "Breaking Bad"-ing of Ellie
Edit: I hate the opening sequence of The Last of Us because it's the most unearned "you are supposed to cry now" bait moments I've ever seen
I completely agree. I think that is really strange when people talk about TLoU "revolutionizing" game stories and "changing" narrative in games when it does what games do at least from Metal Gear Solid 1. I'm not saying it's wrong and that games shouldn't do that but it's nothing new
And I'm going to get a lot of hate from that but it's also just a very average zombie story. Great motion capturing and great actors but a standard zombie narrative glued in with a below average shooter
But I really like Neil Druckmann and I think that he did a great job in finishing the Uncharted series - nothing revolutionary also, but good, and in the end of the day I'll stay play Part 2 because he wrote charismatic characters and I want to see Joel have a bad end and see the "Breaking Bad"-ing of Ellie
Edit: I hate the opening sequence of The Last of Us because it's the most unearned "you are supposed to cry now" bait moments I've ever seen
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Few games have more environmental story telling than TLOU. Infact, the interactive story telling moments are some of the strongest in the game and in gaming, be it the opening segment, the underground nursery, the abandoned university, all the abandoned buildings, homes, shops, the girrafe segment, winter and so on.
In contrast, I find the story telling (both environmental and otherwise) in Soulsborne titles far too vague and lacking in emotive weight and poignancy. The characters are lacking in depth, and the story beats whilst whimsical and interesting, have little emotional value behind them.
Standing on the shoulders of giants isn't "regression". Not using what is proven to work isn't some sort of virtue that puts you above others. The way he describes the decision making on when to use a cutscene makes absolute sense. Sometimes you need to take control away from the player to achieve something that would otherwise not be possible. Because how effective would that scene with the watch be if the player 1. Didn't see their faces, and 2. Was jumping around on the couch and furniture.
Video games are still a visual medium, and as such, is inextricably linked to film and more importantly, the language of film to some degree.
This feels like a gross oversimplification of the game's story and themes.