Didn't Netflix put money into MCU shows? That would mean they get returns too. I bet MCU shows on Netflix have the highest number of viewers compared to any other show. Even if the returns are distributed between Marvel and Netflix they should still be making tons. I don't get it.
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Netflix cancels Daredevil
- Thread starter Sibersk Esto
- Start date
and EA used to get returns from games sold on Steam, and they still took them off. Companies want to have the full cake more and more.
Also I fully believe this isnt all on Netflix, im sure Disney wasnt particular interested or pushing towards those tv deals anymore. Why would they, they have a streaming service coming.
Marvel had no plans for these characters, it's why they farmed them off to Netflix.
If they do anything with DD it's years away, we will get Blade first.
And I doubt Disney has big plans for rated R content except Deadpool.
If they do Kingpin, DD again it will be like he was in the Spiderman cartoon.
If they do anything with DD it's years away, we will get Blade first.
And I doubt Disney has big plans for rated R content except Deadpool.
If they do Kingpin, DD again it will be like he was in the Spiderman cartoon.
If I were the only one using our netflix account I'd cancel it. Daredevil was my favorite netflix show.
Lol, there's nothing wrong with cancelling underperforming shows that you have a bad financial deal on.
Netflix still has a massive amount of original material, they don't need this dead weight.
They also renew plenty of niche programming, so I'm not sure what anybody really has to complain about.
Marvel execs aren't the Disney execs. One is higher than the other in the decision making hierarchy. However, monster? If it costs too much to either make, or retain the rights to, relative to how much it brings in then it becomes a business decision. I remember this kind of attitude when Sense8 got cancelled. People were up in arms about Netflix cancelling that incredibly expensive show and behaved as if the show was their right and Netflix were in the wrong for cancelling it.
I had no idea Daredevil was so expensive to make! I actually assumed the opposite, that its on-location shooting and practical stunts placed the show within the more "affordable" range of production costs... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If anyone's interested, I dug up this article listing The 10 Most Expensive Netflix Original TV Shows (as of Spring 2018) and I'll admit that a few of the series named caught me by surprise. Sure enough, Daredevil made the list. The fact that The Crown, well, takes the crown is equal parts convincing and amusing.
Can't say I won't miss DD — it's still one of my favorite on-screen superhero iterations ever — so here's hoping it'll live on via Disneyflix or some other network / streaming platform!
If anyone's interested, I dug up this article listing The 10 Most Expensive Netflix Original TV Shows (as of Spring 2018) and I'll admit that a few of the series named caught me by surprise. Sure enough, Daredevil made the list. The fact that The Crown, well, takes the crown is equal parts convincing and amusing.
Can't say I won't miss DD — it's still one of my favorite on-screen superhero iterations ever — so here's hoping it'll live on via Disneyflix or some other network / streaming platform!
Any SVOD service would be stupid not to pick up a show where you can only watch the first 3 seasons on another competing service.
I can see the landing page now; Previously on Daredevil... please go to Netflix.com
Right, because SVOD's the only way to watch exclusive content in 2018.
Viewership over quality. Meanwhile public television shows with medicore quality get 20 seasons because everyone watches it during their coffee or dinner and because there's nothing else on at that moment.
I don't put much stock into the "purely Netflix's decision" angle since so many contract disputes are publicized that way in my industry. If Disney were demanding double the money for the continued rights and Netflix declined those demands then that is still "purely Netflix's choice" even if the offer was a poison pill that was designed to be too expensive to ever go through.
So essentially, the viewership wasn't there? That really bums me out... I thought Daredevil S3 at least would have gotten the word of mouth to get high viewership.
Who the hell demanded 13 episodes anyways? I blame a lot of issues these shows had on them.
Yea, Netflix doesnt just cancel a show for shits and giggles. They have the analytical data that shows whether a show is worth the money that theyre backing it with. Looks like Daredevil wasnt puling its weight.
Lots of interesting stuff there, and basically confirms none of these cancelled shows are getting revived anywhere
The Marvel/Netflix thing was an interesting experiment, but it just didn't work out
People reacted that way to Sense8's cancellation because up to that point Netflix's business model was predicated on having complete series for people to binge - it's why they gave the expensive and underperforming Hemlock Grove a third and final season. (Marco Polo was cancelled prematurely a few months prior, sure, but that was the first time that had happened and people figured it was a fluke.) People were pretty comfortable in the belief that Sense8 would be able to finish its story in as many seasons as the Wachowski's needed or at the very least get a wrap up season like Hemlock Grove - because Netflix had positioned themselves as being different from all the other networks.
Somewhere in there Netflix decided that having complete series didn't matter (I guess The Algorithm revealed that people will still watch a show even if it doesn't have an ending and Netflix, like almost every other media conglomerate, doesn't care if people are ultimately satisfied with a show or not - just that the content is being consumed) but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter to the fans.
Having fans who actually give a shit and take ownership of their favorite properties is a luxury in the age of #PeakTV when so much gets lost in the shuffle and apathy towards new shows is at an all time high - even though these companies exist to make money, it wouldn't be such a bad thing for them to throw the most rabid fandoms a bone every now and then (like the Sense8 wrap up movie). Would Daredevil/Luke Cage/Iron Fist wrap up specials make financial sense? Most likely not, but would it build goodwill and act as great PR? Absolutely.
good read. and
gives a better picture and stops the speculation of revival
What ? I'm confused about people thinking Netflix would have cancel successful shows, if a show doesn't make it to an another season it's because the viewership was low in the current one or past season, it's how it works for decades...
That was a good read and it pretty much confirms what I expected. It just seems like the cost, and the damage done by the bad seasons of Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and Defender, it just didn't make sense to keep the Marvel shows anymore. I don't think overall DD season 3 had bad viewership numbers compared to other shows on Netflix, but due to the extra cost and Disney not being very interested in working together to improve quality and reduce the episode count, it makes sense why the move was done. Because of the costly markup of the Marvel shows, I'm sure Netflix would rather use that money to fund big projects that they have full control over. It's still sad to see it go, I loved Daredevil and I wish it could have at least gone for one more season, but it is what it is.
So their idiotic we must have 10+ episodes so we're adding filler is what ultimately did them in? It was my least favorite thing about the Netflix marvel shows they where stretched out way too long.
The third season was fantastic. Don't really think reading synopses is an especially great way of determining how good or bad a thing is...
The audiences weren't big though, that's (part of) the problem. Iron Fist, Luke Cage, and Daredevil's audiences all dropped off by 60 percent this year compared to their previous seasons. That's not sustainable.
Netflix doesn't own the Marvel shows and other original Netflix series like Stranger Things and Orange is the New Black score much higher streaming numbers (especially if we're talking about this year, where the Marvel Netflix viewership dropped precipitously). Increasingly small audiences + increasingly higher costs + no ownership means basically no value for Netflix.
Thanks for sharing this. Further cements that this isn't some grand plan by Disney to bring the Defenders properties over to their platform, and that it just came down to simple TV economics, like any other network.
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In that Twitter thread, it said Netflix wanted to reduce the episodes to 6 or 8 and Disney balked at that.
I would've liked to see that happen. These shows would've been so much better with a smaller episode count so it could be more focused and tighter. All the Marvel shows just never had enough material to carry it for 13 episodes and they always ran out of steam in the back half.
I would've liked to see that happen. These shows would've been so much better with a smaller episode count so it could be more focused and tighter. All the Marvel shows just never had enough material to carry it for 13 episodes and they always ran out of steam in the back half.
FWIW on-location shooting is far more expensive and time-consuming than working on stage. And stunts take forever.
TV show viewership usually declines season to season. I imagine DD took a huge hit in season 2 and most of those people didn't come back for 3. Good word of mouth is not as reliable as people think it is. Entirely possible that despite good WoM, viewership went down even further for season 3.
The long wait for season 3, along with all the mediocre stuff in between didn't help this at all. Lot of people were soured from the other marvel shows, and defenders sucked. The hype was deflated for the TV Marvel Universe after that string of "meh"
Also with new seasons, costs often go up as salaries typically go up as well to retain actors and staff.
Also with new seasons, costs often go up as salaries typically go up as well to retain actors and staff.
Season 2's viewership was actually really big: https://variety.com/2017/digital/ne...enders-binge-viewing-data-ratings-1202532453/
The problem was that viewership for S3 dropped by 57 percent.
Cancelling shows this fast after they air though seems really shortsighted. For a company that puts out a huge amount of content, you'd think they would realize that it's at a pace that most people can't keep up with. Instead we get around to it in time, but if they're going to start cancelling shows based on initial consumption only then that will in turn lead to me never starting shows I would have. The cycle will repeat and eventually I'll just end up not having a reason to keep my membership.
I haven't gotten around to tons of Netflix shows that I plan to watch - Altered Carbon, Maniac, DD S3, IF S2, American Vandal S2, Sabrina, the Haunting of Hill House, etc. Now multiple of those are canceled - what incentive is there to bother watching them?
I haven't gotten around to tons of Netflix shows that I plan to watch - Altered Carbon, Maniac, DD S3, IF S2, American Vandal S2, Sabrina, the Haunting of Hill House, etc. Now multiple of those are canceled - what incentive is there to bother watching them?
But presumably you want to watch those shows because of what they have to offer right now and not for how many more seasons they may have in the future, right?
in any event, I think you might be conflating your personal experience with what actually drives Netflix's business model... I am not the day one binge watcher I used to be either, but I think there are still many many many people who are, so initial consumption is still a huge factor for them. I do agree it's partly a problem of their own making with regards to how much stuff they put out, though it sounds like they are shifting strategy now from quantity to quality -- which is probably another major reason why they've been cancelling (expensive and/or low-performing) shows lately, too.
Fair. I'll be curious to see if their recent trend to cancel shows fast starts bleeding over into more of their wholly owned shows or not.
It's been a few years now, I imagine they probably have a pretty good idea of their audience's viewing habits.
Like how much is watched in the first week vs first month vs first year
Probably saw the general downward trend of the other Marvel shows, and yeah
Even if there weren't the possibility of them ever returning, there's nothing wrong with trying to experience something just because it wound up being incomplete.
The final planned book of ASOIAF will never be released, but that doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't recommend reading anything in GRRM's series
Now that it's cancelled I'm even more irritated that we barely got him in his Daredevil suit this whole season. I feel like Bullseye wore the suit this season than Matt did throughout all three (that's partly because I barely remember S2 at this point, so I don't remember how much he wore it).
One of the problems with Netflix shows (and streaming shows in general) is that because of the all-at-once model, the entire season has to be completed before airing as opposed to network shows where the show is usually still writing and filming when a new season premieres. This means that production has to get started, like, immediately after a new season airs if you want to keep any sort of a reasonable wait between seasons. Most of the time Netflix will "unofficially" renew a show weeks or months before the new season airs so the crew can get a head start. So my point is that because this is the way that Netflix has to make renewal decisions, I'm sure they have some sort of metrics that indicate the tail on a particular show and they take that into consideration.
Here is the twitter thread in its entirety:
On Netflix's Marvel cancellations, there seems to be some nuance that's missing which tells you a lot about the future of OTT video in 2019. I'm sure both sides wanted a renewal, but the *absolute* not just relative value for both sides continued to decline. And thus no more.
Netflix reportedly holds the right to keep renewing these shows, irrespective of Disney's preferences. Disney may be entering Netflix's territory with Disney+, but that didn't drive the cancellations. Netflix was making a rationale decision based on quality, cost, viewership
To point, the shows will remain NETFLIX ORIGINALS for years, Disney would have to buy them back (and says they don't fit with Disney+'s positioning and won't be rebought) and there's likely a hold on re-using the IP in TV (i.e. Disney can't just launch a new Luke Cage in 2019)
The reality is these shows were unprecentedly expensive (Netflix reportedly paying 60% markup), but they weren't very good, audiences have undoubtedly declined precipitously (you can see this in the marketing spend) and it's hard to grow audience in late seasons with old, mediocre shows it's just about viewer retention each year To point, Disney never put much effort in their Netflix shows. Daredevil had 3 showrunners in 3 seasons, Luke Cage was 2 in 2, Jessica Jones 2 in 3, etc. (And the teased MCU integration never happened!!)
It's telling that the signature achievements and performers of the MCU are the 'Avengers' films, but the 'Defenders' was one of the least buzzy, least viewed titles (in part because the preceding two series, the back half of Luke Cage and all of Iron Fist, were very poor)
The Netflix-Marvel deal was set at a time (Nov 2013) when NFLX needed big, buzzy IP that stood out and didn't need to be managed internally. Willing to pay whatever it took for it And note, the deal was meant to be single seasons. Despite its end, Marvel/Netflix was a success
In 2019, Netflix has a huge internal pipeline - fueled by mega-deal with Shonda Rhymes, Ryan Murphy etc - and there's no markup for their own stuff And Netflix's audience and brand are much larger. This means Netflix's needs grew as the contribution of the Marvel shows waned
And with Marvel now focused on their own SVOD shows (e.g. the MCU Loki series for Disney+), it's hard to imagine Disney's best foot forward was going to go towards aged Netflix series
Netflix reportedly wanted to shorten the seasons, thereby reducing total spend and improving retention and quality (Netflix's shows, especially the Marvel ones, are famously bloated). Reportedly from 13 eps to 6-8.
Which means Disney would have to effectively reduce their revenue from 2/3rds, while keeping valuable characters unavailable for all other live action applications, while focusing on their own D2C. And while Netflix could force a renewal, they couldn't do so at new terms
So Disney liked balked. The value wasn't there for either party. It once was. And everyone is now tired of financing another party's enterprise value growth – the economic incentives (cost minimization and upside maximization) drive vertical integration.
In short, it just wasn't working for anyone. Including most of the series' original fans.
Also - To give an numbers example: Marvel shows need 60% more viewership than one made by Netflix, or 30% more made by another producer, just to be even. If we assume Marvel shows have lost 50% of their S1 averages, it's possible DD S4 is 3x+ more expensive than alternatives
Also important: the importance of capital letter "Quality" is only growing over time. Netflix is increasingly focused on quality/impact over tonnage. Marvel series were primarily about the latter.
To be super clear. The shows will not be revived on Disney+, Hulu, Amazon, etc
1/ Netflix would have blocking rights
2/ Netflix won't sell early seasons
3/ No one would want to drive their customers to Netflix for S1-3
4/ Characters are likely contractually hibernated for 1-2yrs
5/ Disney has said they don't fit Disney+, even when the season rights revert after 5+ years
6/ Talent has been released and is very hard to re-assemble (usually far costlier)
7/ There is more upside in starting fresh, with a different take (see Spider-Man Homecoming)
Also keep in mind, Netflix has 11 seasons (6 subsequent seasons) to assess audience declines and projections going forward. It's not that hard to *know* what future viewership figures would be, 99% of the time. Other option is to cut the budget, but it's very hard w/ a license
Also fair points; however, I think with these specific shows it's a harder comparison than it is to other Netflix shows. Did they view their data independent of one another or holistically? Because the delay in starting DD S3 for me is larger than it might be for a different Netflix show due to the number of other 'related' Marvel series I have to churn through first. Like I said before - I'm mainly curious to see what ends up happening with their fully owned shows in the future.
None of the other shows are required to watch S3 of Daredevil, except for maybe The Defenders (and The Defenders doesn't really require you to watch any of the other shows besides Daredevil).
Yeah, I'm not denying that. But I'm sure plenty of people including myself have mainly stuck to watching them in order.
Edit: Well, maybe not "plenty" given the cancellation lol
yeah, given the above Twitter thread and the reporting from all the Hollywood trades on this, I don't believe this at all, at least not if taken purely at face value
That said, I don't think his source here is necessarily lying or otherwise full of shit. This was a contentious negotiation between two companies that each had strong disincentives to agree to each other's preferred terms, so it makes sense that there'd be a lot of he said/she said going on.
