judging by the summary in the thread, i would say yes
i said that i find it "self-evidently ridiculous" that someone would say that any sexuality is "trendy"
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Netflix tweets out problematic clip from “Big Mouth” [Co-creator responds,check threadmark]
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judging by the summary in the thread, i would say yes
i said that i find it "self-evidently ridiculous" that someone would say that any sexuality is "trendy"
Here is the problem with all this, so many forms of sex identity. its god damn fing confusing and what happens if someone does not get it 110% accurate, people absolutely lose their shit.
How about trying this. When someone says something really off, educate them, don't attack. If someone says something slightly off, let it go. Life is too damn short to freak out over every little thing.
How about trying this. When someone says something really off, educate them, don't attack. If someone says something slightly off, let it go. Life is too damn short to freak out over every little thing.
Both of your posts were very helpful, thank you.
the problem is when people say hurting things and they play ignorance.
we really dont know the intention behind what people said.
phobic people are insidious they wouldn't blatant say something and get a ban.
We're not talking about a casual conversation. It's an episode of television. It had to be written and animated. There was time to do 15 minutes of research before putting the pen to paper
Life is confusing.
People who make an honest mistake and don't double down on insisting they're right aren't "attacked" and we don't "freak out".
How about this alternative: stop fucking tone policing marginalized groups of people.
How hard can that possibly be?
thesis: this advertisement puts forward bad arguments people take seriously about what the division in meaning between 'bisexual' and 'pansexual' and so it is irresponsible
antithesis: it is possible for the show to acknowledge these arguments are bad and rebut them as part of the content of the show even if they are not presented here in the advertisement
synthesis: art can discuss nuanced and mature issues in a meaningful way, but this is hijacked by advertisement. advertisement is bad for art, and bad for mature discussion of sexuality (and tuca and bertie was better at discussing sex than big mouth so fuck netflix for cancelling it)
antithesis: it is possible for the show to acknowledge these arguments are bad and rebut them as part of the content of the show even if they are not presented here in the advertisement
synthesis: art can discuss nuanced and mature issues in a meaningful way, but this is hijacked by advertisement. advertisement is bad for art, and bad for mature discussion of sexuality (and tuca and bertie was better at discussing sex than big mouth so fuck netflix for cancelling it)
It's important to note that the "experience attraction differently depending on gender" thing is highly subjective depending on the person. I am attracted to broadly the same set of traits regardless of how a person is presenting but I still identify as bisexual. It's the word that hit me like a thunderclap and gave explanation to what I was feeling when I was young and that I fought for.
There is no hard and fast line that separates all of pansexuality and all of bisexuality from each other. The area of overlap is massive.
There is no hard and fast line that separates all of pansexuality and all of bisexuality from each other. The area of overlap is massive.
Everyone in this thread has brains for worms, everyone shut the actual fuck up if you're not a bisexual. There are bisexuals in this thread that are literally rethinking their identity because of this shit show, how does this not show you how this shit fucks up how everyone even our own percieve bisexuality.
This is super true, which is why I'm a little uncomfortable 'defining' pansexuality to people, especially as someone who identies as bi for my own reasons - we bi folk have so much in common with pan people that focusing on the few differences (which are subjective and personal anyway) feels like it causes a focus on differences rather than our similar struggles and shared experiences.
A nightmare, a literal fucking nightmare!
apparently people can't change how they feel about themselves *shrugs*
I think that person is trying to say that it's absolutely fine to identify as pan for whatever reason, but don't think that one can't identify as bisexual while being attracted to non-binary people.
Yeah, sure, if people want to do that, they can. I wasn't trying to imply that people can't. I apologize if that's the case.
On a side note, if people want to understand why a lot of Bi (and I have to assume Pan people as well) are 'touchy' about this sort of thing, while Bi folks share in receiving the same sorts of bigotry as other letters in the LGBT+ community, we also have unique ways we've been targeted by biphobia, even from within the LGBT+ community.
For example, Bi women get told constantly that 'it's just a phase', and 'they're just being with women for attention', while sometimes being rejected as partners by lesbians due to fear that 'they'll just go back to men'.
And Bi men are constantly told that being bi is just a stopover to being gay. And many straight women don't want to sleep with Bi men out of some sort of disgust that they've been with men.
Bisexual people have had to fight very hard for our sexuality to be understood and referenced properly.
Hell, I live in Ottawa, Canada, and a coworker of mine just recently discovered a celebrity is Bisexual, and said, out loud 'wow, they must have an open relationship so they can be in a relationship with both a man and woman at the same time. I'm not out at work, so it took a lot of effort for me to calmly correct them.
(I'm not saying we have it worse or better than any other group, we just have some unique challenges).
For example, Bi women get told constantly that 'it's just a phase', and 'they're just being with women for attention', while sometimes being rejected as partners by lesbians due to fear that 'they'll just go back to men'.
And Bi men are constantly told that being bi is just a stopover to being gay. And many straight women don't want to sleep with Bi men out of some sort of disgust that they've been with men.
Bisexual people have had to fight very hard for our sexuality to be understood and referenced properly.
Hell, I live in Ottawa, Canada, and a coworker of mine just recently discovered a celebrity is Bisexual, and said, out loud 'wow, they must have an open relationship so they can be in a relationship with both a man and woman at the same time. I'm not out at work, so it took a lot of effort for me to calmly correct them.
(I'm not saying we have it worse or better than any other group, we just have some unique challenges).
What the hell do you think this thread has been about? We're not "losing our shit" here. When people in this thread have had legitimate questions, you'll find that they've pretty much all been answered, and civilly so at that. This thread itself wasn't even made to attack, but to lament the fact that, yet again, popular media has done queer communities a disservice. The strawmanning in this post and honestly, throughout the thread is tremendously upsetting.
Funnily enough this episode touches on some of those very issues. I guess that's why (and full disclosure, saying this as a straight guy) I don't think this clip is quite what it's being made out to be in this thread; more often than not these kids are very wrong, and it becomes very clear in the context of the show that these are... well, 13 year olds who know jack-shit about what they're talking about.
Not when they're being fed lies about how they originally were sweety! Your biphobia is showing sis.
Read the bisexual manifesto hun and don't listen to propaganda from a show that sexualizes minors and thinks trans people arent who they really are!
That's... a very biased and simplistic view of this show.
But they're posting this clip without any of the context from the episode. The assumption that bisexuality is trans-exclusionary is a very sensitive issue for some bi people. By putting out this clip in a vacuum, Netflix is going to reinforce that assumption for some people, as evidenced by this very thread.
Uh oh.
I'll say this: I learned a lot from reading this thread. I had always assumed that bisexual meant two genders (male and female). I just kept reading the replies and learned a lot.
Thanks for the all the helpful answers in this thread.
All I'm learning out of this thread is that a lot of Era really does just see people as "burritos and tacos", rather than people, judging from the "I learned something from that clip :)" posts. Which is not surprising but a bit disappointing.
More generously, though, that y'all don't see the issue with it is why people are saying it's problematic. It's prescribing a definition upon bisexual and pansexual people that many bisexual people and basically all pansexual people (who aren't just holier than thou pricks in disguise) disagree upon, as well as reinforcing transphobic ideals.
I'll give a stab at explaining things myself, so other bi and pan people don't have to. But can, of course.
Bisexuality is attraction to two or more genders, or alternatively, bisexuality is attraction to those who share your gender and those who don't. Bisexual people can have preferences in partners based on gender. For instance, there may be women who identify as bisexual, but really only express attraction to fictional male characters while only really being attracted in reality to women and/or nonbinary people. Alternatively, as I've often seen myself - and why I feel the bisexual label doesn't apply to me- there are a number of bi people who like their men manly and their women feminine. Particularly feminine twinks and butch women are unattractive to them. This of course doesn't apply to all bi people, but it helps explain how their preferences directly relate to their potential partners' gender.
On the flipside, pansexuality is similar if not the same from a cisheteronormative perspective. But there is a real difference. Whereas bi people can profess gendered preferences (though, of course, they don't need to), pansexual people by definition simply don't see gender as a deciding factor in who to be attracted to. They're attracted to other aspects. In my case, I admit I prefer people who present as feminine or androgynous. But that doesn't mean I prefer women, because, I don't. I just like anyone who I consider "pretty", really, whether they're a man, woman, or nonbinary. And at times I do find myself attracted to masculine presenting people as well. Other pansexual people look to personality traits instead of visual cues. But gender identity (and especially not genitals) really isn't a consideration in who we're drawn to.
Besides that though, neither bi people nor pan people need be specifically attracted to a specific set of genitals, which is what the clip prescribes as sexuality. Hell, neither do straight people. So the "taco/burrito" metaphor falls horribly flat and helps misinform how sexuality does (and ought to) work.
*(outside of MAYBE cases where such genitals can trigger someone with psychological problems arisen from sexual abuse, but those problems can arise in trans people as well)
Regardless, I'm not seeing this going on here. Those of us who take issue are just pointing out "hey, this is inaccurate, and could potentially harm perception of how bi people are seen, thus leading them to being harmed or to them questioning their own inherent morality for being bi". No one is saying the show is inherently evil or bad or is #cancelled or anything. Just saying "hey, the writers should work on their goddamn metaphors". Some are being a bit more less calmly spoken than others, to put it nicely, but the key message is basically the same, I think.
More generously, though, that y'all don't see the issue with it is why people are saying it's problematic. It's prescribing a definition upon bisexual and pansexual people that many bisexual people and basically all pansexual people (who aren't just holier than thou pricks in disguise) disagree upon, as well as reinforcing transphobic ideals.
I'll give a stab at explaining things myself, so other bi and pan people don't have to. But can, of course.
Bisexuality is attraction to two or more genders, or alternatively, bisexuality is attraction to those who share your gender and those who don't. Bisexual people can have preferences in partners based on gender. For instance, there may be women who identify as bisexual, but really only express attraction to fictional male characters while only really being attracted in reality to women and/or nonbinary people. Alternatively, as I've often seen myself - and why I feel the bisexual label doesn't apply to me- there are a number of bi people who like their men manly and their women feminine. Particularly feminine twinks and butch women are unattractive to them. This of course doesn't apply to all bi people, but it helps explain how their preferences directly relate to their potential partners' gender.
On the flipside, pansexuality is similar if not the same from a cisheteronormative perspective. But there is a real difference. Whereas bi people can profess gendered preferences (though, of course, they don't need to), pansexual people by definition simply don't see gender as a deciding factor in who to be attracted to. They're attracted to other aspects. In my case, I admit I prefer people who present as feminine or androgynous. But that doesn't mean I prefer women, because, I don't. I just like anyone who I consider "pretty", really, whether they're a man, woman, or nonbinary. And at times I do find myself attracted to masculine presenting people as well. Other pansexual people look to personality traits instead of visual cues. But gender identity (and especially not genitals) really isn't a consideration in who we're drawn to.
Besides that though, neither bi people nor pan people need be specifically attracted to a specific set of genitals, which is what the clip prescribes as sexuality. Hell, neither do straight people. So the "taco/burrito" metaphor falls horribly flat and helps misinform how sexuality does (and ought to) work.
*(outside of MAYBE cases where such genitals can trigger someone with psychological problems arisen from sexual abuse, but those problems can arise in trans people as well)
The victim complex of anyone of any group is fucking wild. There are outliers of any group who think every and anything is an attack on them. But they are just that, outliers. Most complaints about marginalized representation and fight for rights are far from just "victim complexes" taking spoken or written form, and it's diminishing to suggest that.
Regardless, I'm not seeing this going on here. Those of us who take issue are just pointing out "hey, this is inaccurate, and could potentially harm perception of how bi people are seen, thus leading them to being harmed or to them questioning their own inherent morality for being bi". No one is saying the show is inherently evil or bad or is #cancelled or anything. Just saying "hey, the writers should work on their goddamn metaphors". Some are being a bit more less calmly spoken than others, to put it nicely, but the key message is basically the same, I think.
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Except if you had read the thread you'd note that the show deals with all manner of incredibly sensitive subjects about young people dealing with puberty, sex, personal identity and anything else related or intertwined with such topics. It also does this from the spectrum of often confused, many times ignorant children and then goes to explore these subjects that most other shows would never even touch, let alone have season length storylines dedicated to them. This is a show that spends an entire episode talking about Planned Parenthood after one kid says it's just about killing babies. There are bad takes in the show that are there to be critiqued, corrected or even outright shot down.
this is exactly my point, people questioning themselves is not about what the show said, but about what they have read on the thread and learned about themselves.
The show has several seasons dealing with all manner of touchy subjects involving children and their burgeoning sexuality and identities often juxtaposed agaisnt societies standards and does all this rather well. The show's history of dealing with such subjects, both the good and bad takes, is probably the context this is coming from.
Oh the way it's framed is definitely the wrong context in which to use that clip. I just feel it should be noted that (in my opinion) it very much is a case of an individual clip being taken out of its original context (these are all kids who are still learning about sexuality and don't know what they're talking about) and put into one that has understandably upset some people (the appearance that the show is teaching people about what pansexuality is vs. bisexuality, as opposed to just one of its many misguided 13 year old characters).
Yeah after reading more of this thread I think I have a better understanding of the distinction! It's pretty amazing how varied human sexuality can be.
This reply should be enough to show you why i don't fuck with this sorta shit, have fun with your biphobic show and personal biphobia :)
You could actually respond to the points I've made instead of just tossing baseless knee jerk insults my way.
Just a FYI, it's not cool calling everyone "biphobic" over this just because they have a different view about the show.
PS: And before you tell me to "fuck off", I'm bi, my partner is pan, and we both get subtle shade from people, such as one of our closest friends who is a lesbian who only dates transwomen, she hates bi people because "bi people have it easy, stop invading our space". Like honestly the entire scene just feels like a hate pit at the moment.
OKAY?????? Why are you telling me your life story and why the fuck are you close friends with a biphobe????
And i will call a spade a spade, just as i will call a biphobe a biphobe.
And it's made by adults who went through all of this and are telling their stories, while also consulting sexual health and development experts.
Gonna be honest, American cartoon media is pretty much a dead genre today. Stuff like Big Mouth and Family Guy very much explain this point fully. Long live anime. At least, while anime is also far from perfect with a lot of the problematic content, the quality is much better than Loud Mouth, which looks like it was all made in Go Animate.
Because you're being very aggressive and quick to label people biphobic and doing your damn best to make bi people seem unhinged, so I thought you'd appreciate input from a bi person, since apparently that's the only group you think have a right to even talk in this thread.
yes
and i have zero respect for the people who try to drive wedges between different identities in the queer community, as should be readily apparent by my tone - maybe if we treated the assholes inside of our community the same way we do the assholes outside of our community things would be a lot better
because good luck finding any friends in the queer community who aren't discourse poisoned to some degree - you take what you can get at this point
and i guarantee that for every. single. person. in this thread who has shared something about their own personal identity would get dogpiled by the wider internet for not conforming to the personal definitions of some popular shitposter
online queer culture is becoming indistinguishable from a chan board, to be honest
Gotta ask, why don't we have a label for people who like more than two genders but not all? Like omnisexual? Might as well be a bit more specific here.
Dude, the two are identical in quality. Have you taken a second and looked at how ugly the character designs in Big Mouth are?
the most popular definition of bisexuality is "attraction to 2+ genders" - that is how i personally use it - but the term means different things to different people
the term polysexual exists, but that gets conflated with polyamory - which there is nothing wrong with, but you can see why people probably wouldn't realize the difference unless they knew beforehand - and would additionally probably get you accused of using "a microidentity to feel special" by the same people who insist that there can only be one true definition to the most common terms
the answer is that we've allowed our community to be overrun by childish shitposters who have decided they get to choose the nomenclature for the rest of us
EDIT: haha i know this post sounds ANGRY but i promise it isn't directed at you! you asked a good question, this topic just gets me heated
And the show has writing that more than makes up for the art style or out does any anime in terms of the subjects it touches on and explores. And let's not act like shit like their are no anime with off putting art styles in existence.
I've been bisexual for a while, but slid more towards being gay as of late.
I've watched a couple episodes of Big Mouth, and the writing makes me really uncomfortable. Compare that to the huge selection of anime made by Miyazaki that have fantastic writing, along with the many anime today with the same quality of writing. Not all anime are problematic. I would take BNHA any day over any modern cartoon these days with lazy adult humor in addition to the poor art. And it's not even bad in aesthetic while good in abstract, it's just bad because it's so lazily made.
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