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Netflix tweets out problematic clip from “Big Mouth” [Co-creator responds,check threadmark]

Majora85

Member
Nov 21, 2017
483
I'm bi and this whole mess inside LGBTQ community is making me often not wanting to be a part of some bigger, organised group. These people telling who those people are. Defining this and that. Are you pan? Are you bi? How do you know? Would you date a trans person?

I just like who I like ffs. I fucking hate labels.

sorry for the mini rant
No, you need to rigidly define exactly who you are and aren't intetested in, box yourself in, stick a label on yourself, disagree with other members of the LGBT+ community about what said label actually means and then act hostile, passive-aggressive and patronising when someone doesn't immediately know every nuance of a label that even the community can barely agree on and which is barely known outside of quite particular social circles.
 

carlosrox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,513
Vancouver BC
I'm bi and this whole mess inside LGBTQ community is making me often not wanting to be a part of some bigger, organised group. These people telling who those people are. Defining this and that. Are you pan? Are you bi? How do you know? Would you date a trans person?

I just like who I like ffs. I fucking hate labels.

sorry for the mini rant
100% this. Lotta labels, semantics, etc.
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,085
If anyone's takeaway from this situation is that it is the labels that are the problem, then I'm absolutely flabbergasted.
 

Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,996
No, you need to rigidly define exactly who you are and aren't intetested in, box yourself in, stick a label on yourself, disagree with other members of the LGBT+ community about what said label actually means and then act hostile, passive-aggressive and patronising when someone doesn't immediately know every nuance of a label that even the community can barely agree on and which is barely known outside of quite particular social circles.
Y’all.

The clip is bad because it actively excludes people. It’s okay not to know everything about sexuality, even your own- I don’t fucking know what I am. It’s something I struggle with, and it’s not always easy. What is easy is to call out bad takes that exclude those who have found a label that works for them- such as, say, bisexual people who are attracted to NB people. What is easy is to call out bad takes that reject the validity of trans people- to accept that we are what we say we are. What is easy is to listen to those who are hurt and consider why that may be the case, rather than rush to defend a cartoon. I’ve done my best to respond to those asking questions in good faith, but not everybody in this thread seems to be interested in learning.
 
Oct 28, 2017
947
Bisexuality is an inclusive sexuality. That’s a big part of why the rhetoric in this clip is so messed up, because it would make you think that it’s not.
Right, I got that - and that is an opinion held by a lot of people who identify as bisexual. The question I'm asking is how does pansexuality logically follow as a distinct label from bisexuality when the former was established on the premise that the latter is insufficiently inclusive.

It just seems like you want to claim that both labels are equally inclusive and yet somehow distinct. Either pansexuality is a redundant label or bisexuality is less inclusive.
 

Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,996
Right, I got that - and that is an opinion held by a lot of people who identify as bisexual. The question I'm asking is how does pansexuality logically follow as a distinct label from bisexuality when the former was established on the premise that the latter is insufficiently inclusive.

It just seems like you want to claim that both labels are equally inclusive and yet somehow distinct. Either pansexuality is a redundant label or bisexuality is less inclusive.
???

We have people in this thread who’ve explained how the distinction works for them. The mechanisms of attraction are different in these cases. It has nothing to do with inclusivity.
 

opticalmace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,123
This thread has helped me understand what bi and pan mean, as I clearly had the wrong impression before. Makes a lot of sense now, so thanks to those who explained it.
 

Razmos

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,668
People arguing over their different definitions of a label is fucking exhausting.
It goes against everything I love about the LGBT+ community when we are all just arguing about our own interpretations of something extremely personal and on a broad and ever changing spectrum, there is no definitive, agreed upon ideal way to describe it so just stop being assholes to each other.. fuck
 
Oct 28, 2017
947
???

We have people in this thread who’ve explained how the distinction works for them. The mechanisms of attraction are different in these cases. It has nothing to do with inclusivity.
And most of those mechanisms of attraction are purely subjective. There's nothing inherent to the label of bisexuality that demands people 'swing' towards one gender or another.

The infographic in the OP even implies that 'bisexuality' should be a conciliatory label that people adopt only due to the established political history of the bisexual community - aka 'I can't be bothered explaining pansexuality so I'm just going to arbitrarily take on the bisexual moniker instead'.
 

Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,996
And most of those mechanisms of attraction are purely subjective. There's nothing inherent to the label of bisexuality that demands people 'swing' towards one gender or another.

The infographic in the OP even implies that 'bisexuality' should be a conciliatory label that people adopt only due to the established political history of the bisexual community - aka 'I can't be bothered explaining pansexuality so I'm just going to arbitrarily take on the bisexual moniker instead'.
Okay, one, the OP image doesn’t say that’s how it “should” be. It says that if you want to go with bi because that works for you... cool! Go for it! Two, of course they’re subjective. What matters is that the label makes sense to and provides comfort to the person using it. It sounds like you’re trying to say that bisexuality is an outdated and unnecessary label, to which I say absolutely not. There are those who feel bi best describes them. They’re valid. There are those who feel pan best describes them. They’re valid.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,846
Oh I almost missed this thread, I guess the title should say it's about bisexuality lol

Anyways. I get how it could be problematic because being bi doesn't mean you can't be attracted to trans people and at the same time it becomes transphobic in a way too.
I do think the two terms are different and both valid though.
 
Oct 28, 2017
947
Okay, one, the OP image doesn’t say that’s how it “should” be. It says that if you want to go with bi because that works for you... cool! Go for it! Two, of course they’re subjective. What matters is that the label makes senses do provides comfort to the person using it. It sounds like you’re trying to say that bisexuality is an outdated and unnecessary label, to which I say absolutely not. There are those who feel bi best describes them. They’re valid. There are those who feel pan best describes them. They’re valid.
I'm not personally claiming that bisexuality is an outdated and unnecessary label, I'm saying that the 'pansexuality' label was established on the premise that bisexuality IS an outdated and exclusionary label. Hence, why we run into difficulties when attempting to distinguish between the two.

This is an ongoing argument in the LGBT community. There are quite literally hundreds of articles arguing back and forth about the relevance of both labels.
 
Aug 19, 2019
157
London
Trusting Netflix is part of the reason why people are upset.
I understand, but Netflix isn’t shouting and insulting me and making me feel like an invalid, and instead is nicely explaining something new better than anyone in this thread has. I also trust them as a brand, odd to say, more than ResetEra. I don’t like the aggressive gatekeeping.
 

pizoxuat

Member
Jan 12, 2018
492
I'm not sorry we bisexuals are upset about Netflix calling us transphobic even if that hurt your feelings to have to read.
 
Aug 19, 2019
157
London
Seriously, who the fuck trusts Netflix?!
Why wouldn’t I? They make shows I like about underdogs and underrepresented people. I trust them to know sensitive topics better than most other people, definitely more than any other media outlet, and I expect they work with people that are the best in their fields. I would trust Netflix to have a more researched and informed understanding of what pansexualism is than somebody on a message board. That’s just me. Feel free to disagree.
 

Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,996
I'm not personally claiming that bisexuality is an outdated and unnecessary label, I'm saying that the 'pansexuality' label was established on the premise that bisexuality IS an outdated and exclusionary label. Hence, why we run into difficulties when attempting to distinguish between the two.

This is an ongoing argument in the LGBT community. There are quite literally hundreds of articles arguing back and forth about the relevance of both labels.
receipts on that claim that pansexuality as a term was specifically coined to push back against an exclusionary notion of bisexuality. and even if that does happen to be true (I don’t know), it has little to do with the modern day interpretation of the idea of pansexuality, so it doesn’t really matter. bisexuality is not exclusionary. pansexuality is not “politically correct” bisexuality. stop trying to paint them as inherently in opposition to each other when instead they can be valuable tools of liberation and self expression.
 

MainMain

Member
Jun 16, 2019
209
Shujin Academy
I understand, but Netflix isn’t shouting and insulting me and making me feel like an invalid, and instead is nicely explaining something new better than anyone in this thread has. I also trust them as a brand, odd to say, more than ResetEra. I don’t like the aggressive gatekeeping.
I just don’t like a lot of the garbage that comes from them. Excluding LWA though, I very much relate with Sucy.
 

Doomsayer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,164
I understand, but Netflix isn’t shouting and insulting me and making me feel like an invalid, and instead is nicely explaining something new better than anyone in this thread has. I also trust them as a brand, odd to say, more than ResetEra. I don’t like the aggressive gatekeeping.
I understand what you're saying, but weed out the inherently confrontational and contentious replies and there is a lot of good information in this thread.

I also think you have to look at the other side of the coin and people ignoring the good information and parroting false or hurtful info has to be annoying the ones that the clip/thread is supposed to be representing.
 

carlosrox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,513
Vancouver BC
I'm not sorry we bisexuals are upset about Netflix calling us transphobic even if that hurt your feelings to have to read.
You don't speak for everyone. I don't get offended being called something I'm not by an edgy comedy cartoon. I don't think it's calling me transphobic, I'm not transphobic, and I don't think any one bi person can speak like an authority here.

But then again I don't know if I'm allowed to claim I'm bi anymore cuz there's some fucking manifesto out there I didn't know existed that tells me what I am.

I'm attracted to guys and gals. Sometimes it'll be a guy I'm more into, sometimes it'll be a girl. But none of this anyone's business and I don't give two shits if straights or anyone in the LGBT "community" accept me. I have to accept me. It's my own problem and noone else's. And if I want people around me to accept that then maybe one day I'll worry about it. Til then I keep this shit to myself, except when I have to come on Era and announce my sexuality just so I'm allowed to participate in a discussion many people don't even agree on.

I'm not "LGBT+", I'm me. I'm not a community, I'm not a movement.
 

Ash735

Member
Sep 4, 2018
877
I'm not sorry we bisexuals are upset about Netflix calling us transphobic even if that hurt your feelings to have to read.
But HOW is it calling Bi people Transphobic??? Me and my partner watched this and didn't come away with this take, it's true that the MAJORITY of bisexuals are just attracted to cismen and ciswomen. Hell the explanation given on the show is the same stuff I've heard in actual LGBTQ+ circles, like the show didn't explicitly say "Bisexuals hate trans people!", it's just a twisted interpretation of that one clip.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
10,407
a sunken pirate ship
Why wouldn’t I? They make shows I like about underdogs and underrepresented people. I trust them to know sensitive topics better than most other people, definitely more than any other media outlet, and I expect they work with people that are the best in their fields. I would trust Netflix to have a more researched and informed understanding of what pansexualism is than somebody on a message board. That’s just me. Feel free to disagree.
See for me when they're not cancelling original programming in their third season or, in the case of shows like Tuca and Bertie, even sooner, they've got their comedy side funding yet another "CANCELLED: ARE YOU TRIGGERED YET?" stand-up special by yet another blase comedic has-been.
 

pizoxuat

Member
Jan 12, 2018
492
The definition of bisexuality does not exclude trans men, trans women, or people outside the gender binary. Full stop. If you or people you know do, that's an individual making choices, that is not what bisexuality is.
 

Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,996
But HOW is it calling Bi people Transphobic??? Me and my partner watched this and didn't come away with this take, it's true that the MAJORITY of bisexuals are just attracted to cismen and ciswomen. Hell the explanation given on the show is the same stuff I've heard in actual LGBTQ+ circles, like the show didn't explicitly say "Bisexuals hate trans people!", it's just a twisted interpretation of that one clip.
ignoring the claim that the majority of bi folx are only attracted to cis people (receipts lmao), it specifically defined bisexuality as being distinct from pansexuality because pansexuals are able to be attracted to trans people. that’s erasure of bi people who are into trans people
 

Ash735

Member
Sep 4, 2018
877
Real life experience, was I supposed to document every time I spoke to another bi person at pride events or those I know in the community? I know people who do like trans people, I know trans people who only like cisgendered, etc, but in my experience most bi folk I've met are just into cisgendered men and women. *shrugs* Fuck if I know what's supposed to be right anymore, this is the same year they allowed TERFS to march and been told that "bi people have it easy".
 

Agar25

Member
Apr 12, 2018
4,982
I'm bi and this whole mess inside LGBTQ community is making me often not wanting to be a part of some bigger, organised group. These people telling who those people are. Defining this and that. Are you pan? Are you bi? How do you know? Would you date a trans person?

I just like who I like ffs. I fucking hate labels.

sorry for the mini rant
No, you need to rigidly define exactly who you are and aren't intetested in, box yourself in, stick a label on yourself, disagree with other members of the LGBT+ community about what said label actually means and then act hostile, passive-aggressive and patronising when someone doesn't immediately know every nuance of a label that even the community can barely agree on and which is barely known outside of quite particular social circles.
100% this. Lotta labels, semantics, etc.
People arguing over their different definitions of a label is fucking exhausting.
It goes against everything I love about the LGBT+ community when we are all just arguing about our own interpretations of something extremely personal and on a broad and ever changing spectrum, there is no definitive, agreed upon ideal way to describe it so just stop being assholes to each other.. fuck
You don't speak for everyone. I don't get offended being called something I'm not by an edgy comedy cartoon. I don't think it's calling me transphobic, I'm not transphobic, and I don't think any one bi person can speak like an authority here.

But then again I don't know if I'm allowed to claim I'm bi anymore cuz there's some fucking manifesto out there I didn't know existed that tells me what I am.

I'm attracted to guys and gals. Sometimes it'll be a guy I'm more into, sometimes it'll be a girl. But none of this anyone's business and I don't give two shits if straights or anyone in the LGBT "community" accept me. I have to accept me. It's my own problem and noone else's. And if I want people around me to accept that then maybe one day I'll worry about it. Til then I keep this shit to myself, except when I have to come on Era and announce my sexuality just so I'm allowed to participate in a discussion many people don't even agree on.

I'm not "LGBT+", I'm me. I'm not a community, I'm not a movement.
All of this. Community straight up eating itself in here. Not a single one of my friends in the LGBTQ plus Community was offended by seeing this. Not a single one. I’m not in here though trying to police how people should feel about things though, because sexuality is an incredibly touchy, complicated topic I would never dare to do such a thing. There was plenty of scoffing and straight up anger from my bi-friends , people positively active in the LGBT community by the way , at the notion That they are trans phobic for not being sexually attracted to trans people, that I will share.

* that statement should tell you that the show and creators were never ever coming from a place of malice. Anyone who took a second to be familiar with the show and its creators would’ve known that. Would have spared us a lot of back-and-forth if people didn’t immediately jump to calling things hate or phobic
 

CharGP02A

Member
Nov 23, 2017
1,318
apparently people can't change how they feel about themselves *shrugs*
[/
Not when they're being fed lies about how they originally were sweety! Your biphobia is showing sis.


Read the bisexual manifesto hun and don't listen to propaganda from a show that sexualizes minors and thinks trans people arent who they really are!
What show are you talking about? The one in the OP? I've never seen it before. I'll check out that manifesto and get back to you when I get home. Thanks for getting back to me.
 

Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,996
The co-creator of the show admited they fucked up
The people here saying it's nothing should learn with him and just listen
I appreciate the commitment to explore the matter in future seasons. It’s very unfortunate it was like this to begin with, but they have a chance to turn it into a learning experience
 

Sianos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,572
phew, it's a good thing that the only language with words that describe gender and sexuality is English, and furthermore that all cultures around the world conceive of gender and sexuality in exactly the same way, or else all of these vicious arguments over semantics would be utterly pointless!

people are different from one another, and even if we can find categorical similarities between them, each individual person is going to have their own multifaceted experience of attraction

given that there are seven billion people, these individual differences cannot be fully described using one of like twelve words
 

pizoxuat

Member
Jan 12, 2018
492
Here, let me try putting it another way.

When we talk about gay men, we don't say that "no fats, no femmes, no Asians" is an inherent part of gay identity because that would be wrong and exclusionary. You can certainly find individual gay men who are not attracted to fat, femme, or Asian men. We discourse over how problematic that is in the community. But you'd never think to define all gay men by "no fats, no femmes, no Asians" because it's a much bigger umbrella than that narrow slice of preference.

Are there individual bisexual people who would only date cis people? Yes. We would never define bisexuality by them. We discuss how problematic the underlying assumptions are towards our trans friends and loved ones. Bisexuality is bigger than that narrow slice so we don't define bisexuality by that slice.
 

Sianos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,572
Here, let me try putting it another way.

When we talk about gay men, we don't say that "no fats, no femmes, no Asians" is an inherent part of gay identity because that would be wrong and exclusionary. You can certainly find individual gay men who are not attracted to fat, femme, or Asian men. We discourse over how problematic that is in the community. But you'd never think to define all gay men by "no fats, no femmes, no Asians" because it's a much bigger umbrella than that narrow slice of preference.

Are there individual bisexual people who would only date cis people? Yes. We would never define bisexuality by them. We discuss how problematic the underlying assumptions are towards our trans friends and loved ones. Bisexuality is bigger than that narrow slice so we don't define bisexuality by that slice.
this is a good framing device

but it also reminded me of the existence of the "no fats, no femmes, no asians" gays and now i'm feeling even more despair

why does our community gotta be like this? :(
 

Wrellie

Member
Oct 29, 2017
411
I feel like you do not watch Big Mouth if you find this clip problematic. Because if you do, you would find the entire show Big Mouth problematic and thus not make it through S01E01.
 

pizoxuat

Member
Jan 12, 2018
492
Yeah, I felt kinda shitty bringing it up but I felt like I needed to compare two shitty things to show why I and so many other bisexuals in this thread had such a strong, visceral reaction. :/