Netflix tweets out problematic clip from “Big Mouth” [Co-creator responds,check threadmark]

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,018
I haven't seen season 3 yet but a huge part of Big Mouth is that the characters are all young kids just hitting puberty age who are totally and utterly confused by all the things happening to their bodies and those around them and all the new things they're feeling and experiencing. Many times the characters are wrong about things when they first encounter them because its the first time these characters have ever actually encountered such a thing and are exploring it. A lot of ignorant ideas are espoused, explored and often shot down or at least its ellucidated as to why they're negative, incorrect or offensive. This is a show where they have an entire episode spent to debunking myths behind Planned Parenthood and espousing the beneifts because an ignorant classmate thinks its about killing babies.
You're absolutely correct! ...but lots of the posters here don't think there's anything wrong with that character's statements themselves.
 

Agar25

Member
Apr 12, 2018
4,584
ITT people who clearly have never seen Big Mouth before. You are absolutely tripping if you think any of the people involved in creating this aren’t 100% on the side of the LGBT community.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,723
I haven't seen season 3 yet but a huge part of Big Mouth is that the characters are all young kids just hitting puberty age who are totally and utterly confused by all the things happening to their bodies and those around them and all the new things they're feeling and experiencing. Many times the characters are wrong about things when they first encounter them because its the first time these characters have ever actually encountered such a thing and are exploring it. A lot of ignorant ideas are espoused, explored and often shot down or at least its ellucidated as to why they're negative, incorrect or offensive. This is a show where they have an entire episode spent to debunking myths behind Planned Parenthood and espousing the beneifts of it because an ignorant classmate thinks its about killing babies.
While this is true, I think part of the concern is that the educating figure doesn't seem to describe bisexual accurately either. This clip seems very well intentioned, but that seems to be the concern here.
 

DrBo42

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,470
You're absolutely correct! ...but lots of the posters here don't think there's anything wrong with that character's statements themselves.
That's the benefit of a forum, people can potentially learn something or see something through another lens via discussion. I wouldn't have gone full throttle with that thread title though, going to pull in people already on the defensive.
 

TeddieBear

Member
Sep 14, 2019
200
I thought pansexual meant we’re pretty open to any identity.

Bisexual always felt a bit limited.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,969
While this is true, I think part of the concern is that the educating figure doesn't seem to describe bisexual accurately either. This clip seems very well intentioned, but that seems to be the concern here.
And its a few minute clip from a longer episode. They cover a huge amount of touchy subjects that no other show even dares acknowledge, let alone dedicate entire season length storylines around.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,598
I can see why the character portraying bisexuality as transphobic is a bit rough, but I don't think it's that egregious and the rest of the show treats these matters relatively well.
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
878
Y'all, again, even if there's context that improves this: Netflix posted this clip without any of it. If the show later shows that what the character is saying is wrong (which, there's a whole lot of stuff she's wrong about), that doesn't really matter cause Netflix is using this shitty wrong explanation of bi and trans people to advertise the show.
 

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,292
Y'all, again, even if there's context that improves this: Netflix posted this clip without any of it. If the show later shows that what the character is saying is wrong (which, there's a whole lot of stuff she's wrong about), that doesn't really matter cause Netflix is using this shitty wrong explanation of bi and trans people to advertise the show.
I don't know, I don't really watch the show AT ALL and my only impression of the clip is that the pansexual character looks smart and explains to the class what it means?

...?
 

Gaf Zombie

The Fallen
Dec 13, 2017
1,064
Even if we assume that the show creaters are trying to express their total understanding of pansexuality through that young girl I still think the OP title is a bit of a stretch.

I'm no expert by any means but unwittingly missing some nuance is a far cry from being incredibly -phobic.
 

dmoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,253
Don’t like it. Don’t watch it. Assume OP needed to get something cancelled.
I only watched season 1. It’s a ultra vulgar cartoon comedy
 
May 13, 2019
805
The shows leans on it being visually unappealing. The whole point of the visual direction is being upfront about how uncomfortable and unpleasant anything sex and body related is to people.
I have found the show to actually be incredibly sex-positive as it relates to all forms of sexuality. If it doesn't get it 100% right it's not for lack of effort, it's probably one of the most pro-sexuality shows out there. If it stumbles a bit that's unfortunate (not for me to say if it does), but if we call the show anything-phobic, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good
Something doesn't add up...
 

Znazzy

Member
Aug 27, 2018
516
Y'all, again, even if there's context that improves this: Netflix posted this clip without any of it. If the show later shows that what the character is saying is wrong (which, there's a whole lot of stuff she's wrong about), that doesn't really matter cause Netflix is using this shitty wrong explanation of bi and trans people to advertise the show.
1. It’s a comedy cartoon
2. It’s a comedy cartoon that is extremely sex positive. You would hope that people would take five seconds out of their life to research something rather than immediately jumping to being outraged, but apparently that takes too much work.
3. As someone who is bi myself, I’ve always understood bisexual to mean attracted to men and women. I get that may not be how other people define themselves, which is fine, but most people probably believe that definition to be true. I don’t think that’s transphobic.
4. “-phobic” is getting thrown around way too much.
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,018
I'm no expert by any means but unwittingly missing some nuance is a far cry from being incredibly -phobic.
To some Bi folks, this isn't just nuance. This is a major thing. There are a great many Bi folks that are told that the word they use to identify their sexuality doesn't include trans people, and doesn't include non-binary people, and it's wrong.
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,018
I honestly did not know this
Thus illustrating the problem. People who don't know this will be mislead by this scene, being used in isolation to advertise the show - a show that seems to get so much positive and right! ...and then inexplicably goes and says this.

And again, maybe that character/the audience is corrected later, and I'm going to watch the 3rd season and will find out for myself. But in isolation, this clip is actually hurtful to me.
 

Agar25

Member
Apr 12, 2018
4,584
4. “-phobic” is getting thrown around way too much.
Very much this. You’ll get a lot further if you use perceived/debatable slights as an opportunity to educate rather than jump immediately to it being genuinely harmful. Since we have to announce our preferences lest we’re viewed negative: as someone who went from bi->pan ...the clip doesn’t affect , rub me wrong at all in the slightest. I love those show, it’s hilarious. It is trying to do right by all colors in the sexuality spectrum. Even when it arguably fails there’s never anything close to anything malicious or “phobic” in it
 

trashtabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
878
1. It’s a comedy cartoon
2. It’s a comedy cartoon that is extremely sex positive. You would hope that people would take five seconds out of their life to research something rather than immediately jumping to being outraged, but apparently that takes too much work.
3. As someone who is bi myself, I’ve always understood bisexual to mean attracted to men and women. I get that may not be how other people define themselves, which is fine, but most people probably believe that definition to be true. I don’t think that’s transphobic.
4. “-phobic” is getting thrown around way too much.
None of this is a defense of what I just posted. "It's a comedy cartoon" and "it's extremely sex positive" wouldn't be a defense of these shitty misconceptions being spouted either. But the trans misconception here isn't just that it's saying bi people can't be attracted to trans people: it's saying that trans men aren't men and trans women aren't women.

And while I can understand thinking it's a stretch to call this biphobic or transphobic: these are still really bad misconceptions that this clip is pushing.
 

phatmike128

Member
Nov 3, 2017
68
People are offended too easily these days without viewing things in context. Especially when it’s a comedy.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,110
I think what we're learning here is that bisexual doesn't have a concrete definition, even amongst those who identify as bi. Some view it as being attracted to both men and women, and others view it as being attracted to both their own gender as well as all others. Since there is no arbiter of what these terms mean, we're not going to reach a consensus that will satisfy everyone.
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,018
DP - something going wrong with my quote here. Will fix momentarily.

Don’t like it. Don’t watch it. Assume OP needed to get something cancelled.
I only watched season 1. It’s a ultra vulgar cartoon comedy
Don't like this thread, don't post in it - see how it works if we apply that logic?
 

Gaf Zombie

The Fallen
Dec 13, 2017
1,064
To some Bi folks, this isn't just nuance. This is a major thing. There are a great many Bi folks that are told that the word they use to identify their sexuality doesn't include trans people, and doesn't include non-binary people, and it's wrong.
Well then a much better word would be ignorant. Or misinformed. Something along those lines.

Not trying to police language but I don't think it's in the left's interest to lump in well meaning people/shows with -phobic shitheads.
 

Raonak

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,082
Now i'm kinda confused as to what is the difference between bi and pan?

are pan people attracted to anything/non-binary genders,
while bi, as the name suggests, is limiting itself to binary genders (incl trans)?
 

pizoxuat

Member
Jan 12, 2018
430
It extra stings because there is absolutely a number of pansexuals who actively participate in biphobia ("hearts not parts" rhetoric) to try to keep the heat on us and off them in terms of LG exclusion. And this is the kind of shit that those people say.
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,018
Well then a much better word would be ignorant. Or misinformed. Something along those lines.

Not trying to police language but I don't think it's in the left's interest to lump in well meaning people/shows with -phobic shitheads.
By that logic, things can't be racist if they're said due to ignorance either.

Like, I agree, the show is amazing in so many ways. But very problematic statements, especially when they're used as an advertisement, need to be called out.
 

blame space

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,747
pan is the new bi. if you're just attracted to things you're attracted to, regardless of gender, pan is the new wave.
 

pizoxuat

Member
Jan 12, 2018
430
Now i'm kinda confused as to what is the difference between bi and pan?

are pan people attracted to anything/non-binary genders,
while bi, as the name suggests, is limiting itself to binary genders (incl trans)?
Functionally the difference is if you like warm colors or cool colors for your pride flag.

Pansexuality is essentially describing the same concept. While bisexuality is older and trying to reclaim a medicalized term, pansexuality is newer and trying to immediately read as inclusive.
 

blame space

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,747
pan/bisexuality gets so little representation that i don't even care if this is "unacceptable". take what you can get. I'm also not going to watch it out of context from the show.
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,018
Now i'm kinda confused as to what is the difference between bi and pan?

are pan people attracted to anything/non-binary genders,
while bi, as the name suggests, is limiting itself to binary genders (incl trans)?
It varies from person to person, but for me, I don't identify as pansexual, because to me, while I am attracted to all genders, I tend to be attracted to more women, and my attraction to different genders feels differently. I don't feel comfortable identifying as pansexual, when gender has such a big relation to my attraction.
 

Gaf Zombie

The Fallen
Dec 13, 2017
1,064
By that logic, things can't be racist if they're said due to ignorance either.

Like, I agree, the show is amazing in so many ways. But very problematic statements, especially when they're used as an advertisement, need to be called out.
No, by that logic I don't lump in white people who aren't as versed with the black experience but try to do the right thing and slip up with the alt-right.
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,018
No, by that logic I don't lump in white people who aren't as versed with the black experience but try to do the right thing and slip up with the alt-right.
You don't have to lump them in together, but you'd still agree with calling out racist behavior due to ignorance right? I'm not saying to bring out pitchforks for the show. There's just a lot of people in this thread who see no problems with the scene at all, and I want them to understand the problematic points. And I'd simply like the show to do better. Again, it's been super positive in so many ways about sex and sexuality. I'd like the show to continue, and keep doing amazing stuff. But I'd like it to get my sexuality correct.
 

ZeoVGM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,910
Providence / Boston
I disliked the clip because I thought it wasn't funny. But I didn't take this as biphobic. It seemed like it was actually trying to explain the difference in a comedic fashion.
 

FlammableAce

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
32
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing Concerns Around LGBT+ Representation; Inflammatory Accusations; Account in Junior Phase
Give me a break lmao, this forum gets worse and worse.. There's nothing wrong with this clip. Outrage culture is getting absolutely ridiculous