Thanks for this post, this is the best explanation for a recurring question in the thread thus far
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Netflix tweets out problematic clip from “Big Mouth” [Co-creator responds,check threadmark]
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Thanks for this post, this is the best explanation for a recurring question in the thread thus far
Says the person talking about themselves without discussing the matter at hand.
OP
OP
Y'know I'm satisfied with that apology. They're listening to all the criticism and are striving to fix their ignorance. Couldn't ask for much better really.
wtf though this thread has became a dumpster fire.
wtf though this thread has became a dumpster fire.
Honestly, the biggest frustration for me is the notion of trans or bi people not being offended as being evidence that it's not offensive. Someone else's perspective shouldn't invalidate another's.
The vast majority of media is garbage though
The vast majority of media is garbage though
Nobody:
Gilver: So is there a sexuality that is like bisexuality but only for binary or are people not allowed to do that?
Im legit asking because I thought bisexuals only like cis people but if you are going to be a meanie pants then sure keep being insightful.
So watching big mouth or not has nothing to do with the fact that this was in fact somewhat problematic which even the co-creator apologizes for and then this issue was further bolstered by people (much like yourself) coming in here and basically telling people effected by this that they need to stop complaining because this is how the show is, it's super sex positive, over reacting, your definitions are wrong, etc.
The character in question literally draws a distinction between bi and pan individuals by saying that bisexuals are strictly into men and women, whereas pansexual people are attracted to men, women and trans men and trans women. I shouldn't have to explain why that's super transphobic and ignorant, but it's extra annoying because it's coming from a smug character (who was written by smug writers)
EDIT: oh, you meant Inciteful, well that makes more sense, but the idea of bisexuals only being attracted to cis people is literally what the last 13 pages have been about
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I originally thought so too and I imagine it's a rather widespread thought. Pizoxuat above gave a helpful explanation for why it isn't (and shouldn't be) the case, in contrast with some of the other smug, unhelpful replies on this page.
A: It's "affected", not "effected". B: Thanks for putting a bunch of words in my mouth. I've got a Big Mouth apparently. However, I didn't say what you inferred from my post. C: There is nothing factually incorrect in my statement.
Ok since everyone here is not being helpful in the slightest in me trying to understand this situation because the characters explanation is what I assumed was the definition of both terms (bisexual like cis men and cis women and pansexual like anyone regardless of how they identify) im getting that its discriminatory to just like cis gendered people because it singles out trans as neither men or women? So im getting that both terms mean the same and or are subjective?
Look I never want to discriminate anyone for who they like or how they identify but for fucks sake I cant even ask how to be proper? All I know is that I dont want to be hateful against anyone but fuck I cant even ask what I should be corrected on? Fuuuuuuck.
Gilver, try this on for size: It's like calling yourself s gamer vs saying that gaming is your hobby. Both things broadly describe the same thing. However, individuals may weigh the term gamer or the phase "gaming is my hobby" differently and make a distinction between the two. Not everyone makes the same distinctions, weights, and judgements about how to identify between the two, that is a personal distinction. But people who want to be recognized as a gamer want to be called a gamer. People who don't identify as a gamer don't want to be mislabeled and want you to respect that gaming is their hobby.
Does that help?
Also the pansexual flag is warm colors and the Bisexual flag is cool colors.
Does that help?
Also the pansexual flag is warm colors and the Bisexual flag is cool colors.
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i dont understand, this is what the last 13 pages has been about
bisexuality means you're attracted to your own gender + at least one other gender, (or alternatively perhaps 2+ others and not your own). either way neither of those have anything to do with trans people, trans has nothing to do with it, it doesn't even come into the equation
im heterosexual, but that doesn't tell you anything about how i feel about trans people
there are homosexuals who are fine with trans people, and there are homosexuals who despise trans people, being homosexual doesn't tell you anything about how the person feels about trans people because the baseline has nothing to do with it, just like the baseline of bisexual has nothing to do with it
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Thank you for being nice and yes that helped but seems like semantics to me so im just going to be respectful to everyone regardless of whatever.
Sorry, im literally at work while on here so I cant really get to reading 10+ pages to find what im looking for since even the LGBTQ+ community seem to have misunderstandings on what works and what doesn't regarding these terms with all the shit flinging there is on this thread. But I think I get it now since I just had the quick google definition of bisexual in my head.
One thing that has me curious, and I do apologise in advance if this doesn't sound like a legitimate question so much as it does like someone trying to show their ass, but with bisexual meaning attraction to one's own gender and one or more others, what's the common label taken by someone attracted to multiple other genders but not their own?
Genuine question: Is it considered offensive to say there's no difference between bi and pan? I've never met a bi person who considers not being attracted to trans or non-binary people as their identity. In fact, most bi people I know are especially attracted to non-binary people.
Also, the definition presented in the show doesn't even make sense. Are they suggesting Jay wouldn't fuck someone who's trans or non-binary? Come on.
Also, the definition presented in the show doesn't even make sense. Are they suggesting Jay wouldn't fuck someone who's trans or non-binary? Come on.
Thanks for correcting my grammar, its pretty weak and I can never remember which to use.
Also I didn't put any words in your mouth, I just likened what you said to other unhelpful posts here. But your post came off as pretty dismissive, if that wasn't your intention then I really don't know what else you hoped to achieve by telling people that wouldn't even be able to make it through the very first episode if this was problematic.
From the perspective of bisexual people there wasn't a distinction before pansexual people appeared and started telling people there was one.
Pansexual people trying to distinguish themselves as an offshoot/subset would ordinarilly be fine, except in a lot of cases a pansexual person's definition of their sexuality involves redefining bisexuality to be more exclusionary. Which is why a lot of bi people who aren't exclusionary immediately said "Wait. What the fuck?" and have slowly been losing the battle for their own identity ever since.
educate me here, but aren't bi people who are into trans people pansexual then?
Good to see them apologize and strive to do better. Voices across the spectrum need to be heard when making media like this.
Being trans has no bearing with regards to sexuality. Straight people, bi people and pan people can all be into trans people. For instance, if a straight man were to date a trans woman, he would be in a straight relationship. To imply otherwise would be to insinuate that trans people are not the gender that they say they are. The functional differences between bisexuality and pansexuality have been covered at length throughout this thread, so if you're interested in learning more, I do recommend reading through it.
How is the fact that bisexuals can be attracted to trans people transphobic? I'm not following you.
If you're bisexual
and you're attracted to 2+ genders
which by definition include women and/or men (since agender isn't a gender)
and trans women are women and trans men are men
how is a lack of attraction to trans men and women, based solely on them being trans, not transphobic or rooted in transphobia?
Shouldnt I, if I like woman, include trans women as just women? Say, in a normal chat I say I like women, that should mean all women, trans women included no?
If a bi says they like women and men, that shoud also include trans men and trans woman, otherwise thats kind of transphobic to me.
Now, I am not trying to argue, just trying to understand, because the clip seemed ok to me, but the thread really says otherwise.
The problem is that the clip reinforces the false notion that bisexuals as a whole aren't attracted to trans people. Which obviously isn't true; not every bisexual even likes the same 2+ genders.
Trans women are women. Trans men are men. There are bisexuals who completely reject trans folx, but that's not because they're bisexual, it's because they're transphobic. Those transphobes don't speak for bisexuals as a whole.
If anyone thinks I missed anything, please let me know.
I think being pan means the sexual attraction isn't binary - not male or female but also everything in between.
The show doesn't use the best words because it gives the impression that
1- pan = liking both cis and trans people
2- trans people are always non binary
3- bi people can't be attracted to trans people
... And all of these are wrong and misinformed.
Trans people can be binary or not, and pan doesn't necessarily has to do with being attracted to trans people, and bi people (as well as gay or straight people) can be attracted to trans people too.
I think the show isn't trying to do any harm but it could have conducted better research. I always got the impression that it is written mainly by straight men.
The show doesn't use the best words because it gives the impression that
1- pan = liking both cis and trans people
2- trans people are always non binary
3- bi people can't be attracted to trans people
... And all of these are wrong and misinformed.
Trans people can be binary or not, and pan doesn't necessarily has to do with being attracted to trans people, and bi people (as well as gay or straight people) can be attracted to trans people too.
I think the show isn't trying to do any harm but it could have conducted better research. I always got the impression that it is written mainly by straight men.
I meant the fact that the show implied bisexuals can't is transphobic
See, what I don't get at this point is, why even make the distinction of "I'm attracted to men, women, and trans men, and trans women" - Men are Men, Women are Women.
So wouldn't straight people be flat out transphobic, if they claim to not be attracted to a Trans Woman? It kind of feels like straight people are getting some leeway in this issue that they don't really deserve.
No idea if this ist at all coherent, my mind's a bit jumbled atm.
I've struggled for a while with trying to fully work out whether I identify more as bi or pan, and still do question that at times. I like men and women, whether they be cis or trans, but there also people outside that 'binary' I'm attracted to, some non-binary people for example. I've tried to not think too much about labels and enjoy what I enjoy, but it's important for people to be educated on what different sexualities can mean.
God forbid people air out concerns that directly affect them. That's so selfish of them.
I guess, but I figured someone with a queer identity who found themselves specifically attracted to non-binary individuals as well as the "opposite" gender might not find that label suitable, given its common application. Bisexual seemed from the outside like maybe it'd feel more appropriate, but I'm learning here that it commonly includes someone's own gender. I get there's probably no single answer here, as the definitions themselves are both variable and fluid, but yeah, just curious if there's a sizeable community whose attraction matches that particular configuration, and what label they tend to prefer, if so.
The discourse around this actually enlightened me because I know pansexual people who have described being pansexual exactly like the show does.
The description added to the OP makes a lot more sense.
The description added to the OP makes a lot more sense.
I think there's a problem with semantics here, or at least to many people not deeply invested in these issues it feels like semantics. To those who deal with this stuff every day it seems like there's a huge swathes of insulting ignoramuses out there who are being wilfully cruel but for many they simply do not know, they have not been educated and have not been exposed to these issues at any great length.
For instance if you asked the average bystander what bisexuality meant they would say someone who was into men and women. Going by the explainer in the OP this is insulting by using gender in the description. Most people out there would not understand why that would be insulting.
I find threads like this feel like they're flying off the handle to an average bystander like myself. I didn't see anything wrong with the clip until it got explained to me. The average viewer would think it was very progressive and enlightening but apparently it's offensive to some. The average member of the public does not understand this stuff. It's way outside their circle of understanding. It's good to educate but I feel like we should try not to tell people they're horrible for not seeing how it is offensive.
For instance if you asked the average bystander what bisexuality meant they would say someone who was into men and women. Going by the explainer in the OP this is insulting by using gender in the description. Most people out there would not understand why that would be insulting.
I find threads like this feel like they're flying off the handle to an average bystander like myself. I didn't see anything wrong with the clip until it got explained to me. The average viewer would think it was very progressive and enlightening but apparently it's offensive to some. The average member of the public does not understand this stuff. It's way outside their circle of understanding. It's good to educate but I feel like we should try not to tell people they're horrible for not seeing how it is offensive.
Good on the creators for the response. Really shouldn't have attempted humour based on something they know little about but I'm sure I'm not alone in being more aware them having done so.
There are a few posts in this thread that may help you.
There are a few posts in this thread that may help you.
This thread has been incredibly enlightening - especially in regards to bisexuality and pansexuality - even if it has left me feeling a confused at some points lmao.
A question: is it transphobic to only be attracted to passing trans men/women? It's been a hotly contested topic among my group of friends, who are all cisgender and many of whom are gay and bi. They're all ardent supporters of trans rights, but most of them claim their personal sexual identity boils down to biological attraction to their preferred biological sex - which is, understandably, out of their control. Some of them confessed that they would 'probably' be attracted to trans men or women if they were passing, which they admit would get them driven out of various LGBT circles should it become known. The same group says they don't hold any sort of malice toward trans people, but do admit to feeling pressure from many in the LGBT community to "force" themselves to be attracted to other people even if it's "not what [their] biology agrees with."
Y'all it's a very uncomfortable convo to find myself in even while fucking drunk, and even more so when there's no trans voice in the group. 😩
A question: is it transphobic to only be attracted to passing trans men/women? It's been a hotly contested topic among my group of friends, who are all cisgender and many of whom are gay and bi. They're all ardent supporters of trans rights, but most of them claim their personal sexual identity boils down to biological attraction to their preferred biological sex - which is, understandably, out of their control. Some of them confessed that they would 'probably' be attracted to trans men or women if they were passing, which they admit would get them driven out of various LGBT circles should it become known. The same group says they don't hold any sort of malice toward trans people, but do admit to feeling pressure from many in the LGBT community to "force" themselves to be attracted to other people even if it's "not what [their] biology agrees with."
Y'all it's a very uncomfortable convo to find myself in even while fucking drunk, and even more so when there's no trans voice in the group. 😩
Kind of a difficult question. As a cis man I'd say that everyone has preferences for what they're attracted to.. It wouldn't be reasonable to expect me to be into every cis woman on the planet and while I'm definitely attracted to trans people and even men sometimes, I tend to be more into people that present a little more femme. I think it's important to think about who you're attracted to and how much if it is the result of societal and gender norms, and potentially be open to new things - just talking about it among your peers is a good first step! But like you said, you can't force yourself to be into someone. I can definitely think how some people would think of this as transphobic, but it's not on the same level as saying you'd never be into someone who's not cis.
In the way it is worded ... yes.
For example: It is ok to prefer women with small shoulders or without visible facial hair. It is shit to say these problems only happen to non passing trans women
It is very much worth considering that women of color and Jewish cis women as well as cis women with PCOS are often called out for being obviously non-passing trans women by hateful fucks. The idea of "passing" is rooted not just in transphobia and sexism, but also in racism and ableism. "I am attracted to this general collection of traits" is an ok thing. "Passing" ain't a trait, it's a gate that shitty people keep.
Ali Wong's introduction was mishandled egregiously, the writers should have known and didn't.
The proof of this is the shittiness of the adult bisexual character, Shannon (Jessi's mom). It's a portrayal of bisexual women as being too confused to be wives and mothers. The season ends with her wanting to move and take Jessi with her because her girlfriend broke up with her and she wants to join the BDSM community? It's not a good reason, and makes it seem like bisexuals are prone to impulsive behavior and care more about themselves than their children. I'm guessing she'll walk back on it and Jessi won't actually end up moving because she's one of the four main characters, but being up her own ass like that really doesn't make Shannon all that sympathetic. I mean, she's not the only source of bad parenting in the show, and she's not even really a bad parent, but she's the only one who's bad because she's going through changes. And she's the only parent who isn't straight. So there you go.
The show is really funny though, and it does not bake its bread being dismissive of sexualities. They will not be doubling down on mistakes. These are obviously complex issues not made any easier by the bi- prefix very unequivocally meaning "two" for a lot longer than the nuanced meaning it has for bisexuality.
I really don't have many complaints about the show. Mainly that it's unclear in the last scene with the Bespectacled World War I Penis whether he was attending his wife's funeral or visiting the grave of his war buddy who was KIA as a sign that he had gotten through that trauma and wouldn't be an alcoholic anymore. Jessi doesn't get enough main character time compared to Nick, Andrew, and Jay. That's about it. Nothing the show has gotten wrong so far can cancel out how funny and truthful and well done Maya Rudolph's dynamic with Jessi Klein is. And that's only a, once again, too-small portion of the show. I like the rest of the cast too, I mean Connie and Jessi just seem fresher to me because I'm a man and so all the male characters are more familiar. And Maya Rudolph is just. that. good., of course.
Sincerely,
Shane Lizard
The proof of this is the shittiness of the adult bisexual character, Shannon (Jessi's mom). It's a portrayal of bisexual women as being too confused to be wives and mothers. The season ends with her wanting to move and take Jessi with her because her girlfriend broke up with her and she wants to join the BDSM community? It's not a good reason, and makes it seem like bisexuals are prone to impulsive behavior and care more about themselves than their children. I'm guessing she'll walk back on it and Jessi won't actually end up moving because she's one of the four main characters, but being up her own ass like that really doesn't make Shannon all that sympathetic. I mean, she's not the only source of bad parenting in the show, and she's not even really a bad parent, but she's the only one who's bad because she's going through changes. And she's the only parent who isn't straight. So there you go.
The show is really funny though, and it does not bake its bread being dismissive of sexualities. They will not be doubling down on mistakes. These are obviously complex issues not made any easier by the bi- prefix very unequivocally meaning "two" for a lot longer than the nuanced meaning it has for bisexuality.
I really don't have many complaints about the show. Mainly that it's unclear in the last scene with the Bespectacled World War I Penis whether he was attending his wife's funeral or visiting the grave of his war buddy who was KIA as a sign that he had gotten through that trauma and wouldn't be an alcoholic anymore. Jessi doesn't get enough main character time compared to Nick, Andrew, and Jay. That's about it. Nothing the show has gotten wrong so far can cancel out how funny and truthful and well done Maya Rudolph's dynamic with Jessi Klein is. And that's only a, once again, too-small portion of the show. I like the rest of the cast too, I mean Connie and Jessi just seem fresher to me because I'm a man and so all the male characters are more familiar. And Maya Rudolph is just. that. good., of course.
Sincerely,
Shane Lizard
He was visiting the grave of his war comrade. It was a military graveyard