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New Hampshire Democratic debate, 8PM ET on ABC | Live Free or Don't

Pasha

Pasha

Banned
Jan 27, 2018
3,018
Darren Lamb said:
When did she retract her support? AFAIK she just added a transition period, which is 100% what would happen if it's actually implemented. We're not going to bed with private insurance and waking up with M4A sorted the next day.
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dots said:
Well this isn't true because she never retracted support for m4a.
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Cmon ya'll.
There was no "transition period" she said she would try to do the public option first and then try to fight for M4A in her second term.
That was ridiculous and most interpreted it as her backing away from M4A, and I honestly don't see how you can interpret it any other way.
 
Tiger Priest

Tiger Priest

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,120
New York, NY
Pasha said:
Cmon ya'll.
There was no "transition period" she said she would try to do the public option first and then try to fight for M4A in her second term.
That was ridiculous and most interpreted it as her backing away from M4A, and I honestly don't see how you can interpret it any other way.
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Agreed. She 100% reversed course which is probably when she started to bleed support to Bernie.
 
Tukarrs

Tukarrs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,822
Br3wnor said:
True, but how she handled the entire issue coincided with her decline
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I think part of it is the perception of Warren being evasive with answering how she's going to pay for it, and her insisting there'll not be any tax raises for the average person.

And then she releases a proposal that seems counter intuitive saying that taxes won't increase for people but for employers.

Because the idea has been hammered home that M4A will raise taxes by Liberals and the media, her answer seems dishonest. Like it's 'technically' not going to raise your taxes but it very much will.

Bernard just straight up says that there will be tax increases but people will spend substantially less in the middle class or below due to elimination of premiums and fees. This story makes sense.

It's a hard truth vs (perceived) calculated wonkery.
 
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dots

dots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,893
Pasha said:
Cmon ya'll.
There was no "transition period" she said she would try to do the public option first and then try to fight for M4A in her second term.
That was ridiculous and most interpreted it as her backing away from M4A, and I honestly don't see how you can interpret it any other way.
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Again, this isn't true. If you want to advocate against her position, at least do it honestly.
 
Dartastic

Dartastic

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,779
Pasha said:
Cmon ya'll.
There was no "transition period" she said she would try to do the public option first and then try to fight for M4A in her second term.
That was ridiculous and most interpreted it as her backing away from M4A, and I honestly don't see how you can interpret it any other way.
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Right? Everyone who pays even an iota of attention to politics knows what that means. It means it's not gonna happen.
 
Dartastic

Dartastic

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,779
Psychoward said:
M4A isn't happening before 2024 at the absolute earliest no matter who's president
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The difference between warren and Bernie is stark here though. Bernie plans to pass M4A and have a transition period. Warren plans to pass a single payer system in her first two years, then "fight for" a M4A system in her second half of her first term. It's not a viable strategy to actually get it implemented.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Dartastic said:
The difference between warren and Bernie is stark here though. Bernie plans to pass M4A and have a transition period. Warren plans to pass a single payer system in her first two years, then "fight for" a M4A system in her second half of her first term. It's not a viable strategy to actually get it implemented.
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So what happens when Bernie's M4A doesn't get through the Senate, what does he do for the next 3 years
 
Kirblar

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
BarringGaffner said:
This. Most people supporting Bernie seem to understand that him getting elected would just be the beginning.
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Those people seem to have a very different takeaway from the '09-'10 congressional session and the 2010 election than I do. (Bitecofer's negative partisanship explanation has lined up 100% with midterms being inevitable backlash for a long while now.)
 
Zombegoast

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,239
Bernie is relying on voters to turn the vulnerable republicans seats Blue with only needing 3 to gain the majority.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Zombegoast said:
Bernie is relying on voters to turn the vulnerable republicans seats Blue with only needing 3 to gain the majority.
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Ok so what happens if Bernie wins in 2020 but the Senate is still under Republican control. Or it flips but the majority of Dem senators refuse to pass a M4A bill.

And his public rallies and grassroots calling stuff doesn't change enough minds (as it usually doesn't).

Then what? We're on the ACA until his term(s) are up?
 
Blue Skies

Blue Skies

Banned
Mar 27, 2019
9,224
Psychoward said:
Ok so what happens if Bernie wins in 2020 but the Senate is still under Republican control. Or it flips but the majority of Dem senators refuse to pass a M4A bill.

And his public rallies and grassroots calling stuff doesn't change enough minds (as it usually doesn't).

Then what? We're on the ACA until his term(s) are up?
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Then a republican moderate in appearance runs and wins in 2024
 
AncientReptileBrain

AncientReptileBrain

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,459
Psychoward said:
Ok so what happens if Bernie wins in 2020 but the Senate is still under Republican control. Or it flips but the majority of Dem senators refuse to pass a M4A bill.

And his public rallies and grassroots calling stuff doesn't change enough minds (as it usually doesn't).

Then what? We're on the ACA until his term(s) are up?
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you really think Bernie sits in the oval office with his arms crossed and his hands over his ears, refusing to budge even a millimeter? you guys think Bernie is a cartoon character, honestly.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Rez said:
you really think Bernie sits in the oval office with his arms crossed and his hands over his ears, refusing to budge even a millimeter? you guys think Bernie is a cartoon character, honestly.
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I don't think that's likely but it is a possibility and it is backed up by his rhetoric and plans.

We all know M4A isn't getting passed when he's in office, the support is not there in the Senate even if we have a Dem majority.
 
Zombegoast

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,239
Democrats would be shooting themselves in the foot and again would learn nothing after loosing the seats after regaining them.
 
dots

dots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,893
Rez said:
you really think Bernie sits in the oval office with his arms crossed and his hands over his ears, refusing to budge even a millimeter? you guys think Bernie is a cartoon character, honestly.
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I thought the position was that Warren is bad because her plan is "retracting support for M4A" because her plan in staged rather than all at once but Bernie is good because he is uncompromising on M4A?

But now Bernie will compromise and that's just fine while Warren's plan is still bad?
 
Darren Lamb

Darren Lamb

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,833
Pasha said:
Cmon ya'll.
There was no "transition period" she said she would try to do the public option first and then try to fight for M4A in her second term.
That was ridiculous and most interpreted it as her backing away from M4A, and I honestly don't see how you can interpret it any other way.
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Providing a phased M4A plan is backing away from it?

I saw this take after the news hit, but I didn't agree with it. I thought it wasn't a great idea from an optics standpoint, since people want purity and strong positions in the primaries, but I saw it as the realistic implementation of it. From what I've seen, the idea of medicare expansion is generally supported, but eliminating private insurance is not, at least right now. In order to get the electorate to change, they might need to see the expansion succeeding before doing away with what they know.
 
Shake Appeal

Shake Appeal

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,883
No one is achieving anything in the United States Congress until it is substantively overhauled, and it's naive, at best, to believe otherwise. At worst, it's concern trolling.

Handwringing over Bernie's ability to shepherd legislation through Congress requires you to ignore the last 12 years of U.S. politics and honestly the last 40.
 
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Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
dots said:
I thought the position was that Warren is bad because her plan is "retracting support for M4A" because her plan in staged rather than all at once but Bernie is good because he is uncompromising on M4A?

But now Bernie will compromise and that's just fine while Warren's plan is still bad?
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🤯
 
AncientReptileBrain

AncientReptileBrain

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,459
dots said:
I thought the position was that Warren is bad because her plan is "retracting support for M4A" because her plan in staged rather than all at once but Bernie is good because he is uncompromising on M4A?

But now Bernie will compromise and that's just fine while Warren's plan is still bad?
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i don't want to be too broad, but it's probably not too controversial to say that the default democrat/"western left wing" style that's existed for basically my entire lifetime ("start ceding ground -- rhetorically and, like, literally in terms of policy -- before controlling even a single lever of power") doesn't leave us in a good place when we're finally in control. so my position here isn't "negotiation bad" it's "stand your fucking ground and argue your case like you mean it, because you do" so that when you have to compromise, you start from the strongest possible position.

so... yeah? kinda? i have a _huge_ amount of respect for warren, but seeing her start the pre-negotiation negotiation continues to be a giant red flag.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Rez said:
i don't want to be too broad, but it's probably not too controversial to say that the default democrat/"western left wing" style that's existed for basically my entire lifetime is: "start ceding ground -- rhetorically and, like, literally in terms of policy -- before controlling even a single lever of power" doesn't leave us in a good place when we're finally in control. so my position here isn't "negotiation bad" it's "stand your fucking ground and argue your case like you mean it, because you do" so that when you have to compromise, you start from the strongest possible position.

so... yeah? kinda? i have a _huge_ amount of respect for warren, but seeing her start the pre-negotiation negotiation continues to be a giant red flag.
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Confronting the reality of the situation is not a giant red flag imo
 
Ziltoidia 9

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,141
Y'all think Obama will finally endorse Biden?

Though, then it would fall into the story a while back about Obama not wanting Sanders. Could have the opposite effect.
 
Ziltoidia 9

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,141
Blue Skies said:
More likely he endorses Pete honestly
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I guess if Pete some how won NH, it might be a strategy to have Pete more acceptable in the south.

Problem is, Trump basically will walk all over Pete. And it is going to be hard to get any minorities to be excited enough to go and vote for him.

Granted though, the feeling of Hillary just walking through 2016 won't be here this year.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Ziltoidia 9 said:
Y'all think Obama will finally endorse Biden?

Though, then it would fall into the story a while back about Obama not wanting Sanders. Could have the opposite effect.
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No especially with Biden dropping. Obama isn't endorsing anyone until a clear winner emerges.
 
Mr. Wonderful

Mr. Wonderful

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,295
After 6 or so years of this from Bernie, it would be very interesting to see where he compromises and favors incrementalism vs. sticks to his ideals.

The danger of populism has always been that it risks a backlash once the political realities of the office and legislature comes into place, and promises aren't fulfilled. Fulfilling some of those promises may require autocratic behavior, going against a portion of the populace's wishes and expanding executive power. This further increases the risk of a backlash, and a monumental red wave in 2022.

Bernie would be in a tough position as president if he were elected, and would potentially have to do a great job threading the needle and focusing on generally agreeable improvements over some of his most progressive policies to stick the landing.

Note that this isn't a message that a Sanders presidency shouldn't try to go all out and achieve everything he's campaigning for. It's just a statement that it will be difficult. Even without legislative support, of course, there's still a ton of good that would be done simply through his executive responsibilities.
 

Something Creative

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,186
Why was Warren claiming that Bernie was taking money from a Super PAC? Is that true? Or is she just mixing in the Our Revolution issue to be able to conflate him with the others?
 
ItRhymesWithDoom

ItRhymesWithDoom

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,722
sooo...

I'm trying to watch the stream from last night, and somehow I got into a weird non-mans of youtube, where I'm watch a republican panel, but hearing the debate? It is a rather disturbing bad lip sync experience. Currently watching Steyer talk with Klobb's voice, and now Biden is getting in on it... :|

Anyway, reloaded video and now it's correct, phew! Let's get into it. SHITPOST TIME!!! YEEEAAAAH!

- aaand there's the bad audio you guys were talking about. That is one loud fan.
Biden: "well, you know, eh... maybe I fucked that quote up?" In his defense, he did start out by being a team-player for team Bernie or otherwise.
Bernie: *rocky theme*
Steyer: keeping it real, and the "of blacks". Oh sweet jesus, that was a poor choice of words.
Yang: I'm back on the stage, and this is my favorite stage on the citadel- campaign, I meant campaign.
Butty Winecave: man, I don't like this man. To quote the good Ernie Hudson: "JUST TELL US WHAT IT IS" (that you're saying)
Bernie, your response: "You bring togethah... " by ending this young man's career.

medicare:

Biden: *teamplayer mode disabled* WHAT'S IT GONNA COOOOOOOST
Bernie's response isn't truly great, but pointing out the many various competing plans is worth mentioning more.
Klobb: ... sigh... "we need to stick with our beliefs", honey, that shit don't work.
Warren: Vote team Democrat! All by heeeerseeeelf
Pete: let the past die.gif
Klobb: let me just break my voice over Mitt Romney. COURAAAGE *sob* (I suppose she's not wrong, but if that is courage...) Oh, that newcomer dig in the White House though.
Bernie just repeating the same points about drug companies. :(
Steyer: "it's the economy, stupid", heh, actually talking about Voldemort. One does not talk about Voldemort. "darn!" That applause was earned.
Pete:
Yang: This is the disease, we're the cure. But he is not wrong.

impeachment:

Warren: *E1M1 starts playing* JUSTICE
Yang: American Presidents. "sorry about that". Hehehe. Though his point about justice and privilege is interesting, even if hidden.
Bernie: oh fuck he's going in on that King making shit. And pointing forward to next presidents while doing it too.
Steyer: my man! But tone down the pessimism a bit?
Pete: Notice Me Senpai-daddy
Biden: thanks, but it's really about Vindman. Sometimes Joe reminds us all why we used to like him.
Klobuchar: trying to get those Republican votes. And what is with the constant misspeaking? IT'S SPREADING!

Iran / war / commander-in-chief:

Would you do it? Pete: eeeh, maybe? Probably? Biden: nope. And throw 45 out of the job! Well, that was a quick 'get f-d'.
Sanders mentioning Muslims in China is appreciated though.
Warren: "tell me the plan!" on Afghanistan and everything. Though pulling out everything is not a good idea either. She seems to vary a bit on this point.
Biden: sensible anti-terror policy.
Pete: CYBER CYBER CYBER NEW CYBER Past Dead CYBER!
Biden: continuing sensible policy on NATO.
Steyer: we can't be team world police.
Also Biden: I. Was. THERE. *stutters* :( But he's not wrong.
Sanders: but climate change is still a thing! Alright man, but kinda not the questions here? Politics kinda sucks sometimes.

EPIC MUSIC INTERMISSION. Please stop trying to make everything 'epic' or an event.

Overdose / drugs:

Pete: "decriminalize?" nonono, I meant 'not imprison'. Que? I tuned out for the rest of the answer.
Yang: people > money. Amy agrees.

Guns:

Sanders: oh here it comes... "well, I've changed my views"
Everyone: we can do better. Except for Steyer, permanently stuck in invisible mode. Obviously this is where Warren's strong point is, whereas it is without a doubt Sanders's weakest. Hell, even Joe Biden is swinging haymakers on this one. But... it might explain why rural states like Sanders anyway. :| But what is what Biden's face change between the break?

Abortion:

Oh no, Pete wants to get in on this one. Warren obviously has the correct answer, because that shit needs to be legal everywhere. Biden to support.

Supreme Court:

seeing Pete's face drop as the question is asked seems to say something, and I don't know what it is.
despite the face, Biden is bringing his A-game. "You have to bring a Senate, or it's moot". THANK YOU, JOE.
Steyer bringing the heat, but drop the negativity, man. That shit works in Europe, not the USA. :( wait... that's basically me. Oh, fuck ME!

(on Pete being mayor and increasing arrests during it)
To Warren: is that a substantial answer?
Warren: No.
Hot damn, that was great.
Yang: imma go take Martin Luther King and turn it into my UBI pitch. Okay, I get it, but dude.
Steyer: imma go even hotter and support reparations (and keep talking). Just... just take the applause, man.
Sanders: TRIPLE RAISE! (I'm okay with this though)
Biden: I do declare, QUATRO RAISE.

Man, I love this sudden "let's talk about race with white people" turn. :D
However, there is a lack of saying the other half: getting white people to understand they are / have been the baddies. Steyer seems to 'get' that part, but not entirely either. Yang also kinda does.

And the inevitable Bloomberg question. And the PACs deciding where voters go, because money is unlimited.
everyone mentioning their sites though. "40 billionaires, PETE, " *Heston laugh. gif* God bless Bernie.

okay, this trade thing isn't really my thing, but:
Steyer referencing The Empire from Star Wars! :D:D:D
and now I'm sorta agreeing with Klobuchar? nooooo

final statements:
Yang: we gotta fix this non-growth shit
Pete: let. the past. die.
Warren: let's actually give a shit about our children! (USA: ? but what about me? )
Biden: grandpa cares, kids. And he used to be poor.
Sanders: we gotta power. Thank you.
Klobuchar: noooo, not another story. And site drop, of course. Meh.
Steyer: I'm running to defeat Mister Trump! ... Cool. Please drop out, but keep the hype.


You know, despite the gloves off this was actually a nice debate. Except for Pete, but honestly, he has to decide whether he want to be president or 'winecave man', and I think he's already chosen not to be president.
 
Rockets

Rockets

Member
Sep 12, 2018
3,011
Lentic said:
Warren just has terrible political instincts. She's a nerd who's good at the academics behind policy, but not good at marketing herself, which is why I think her and Bernie could be a good combo.
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Gotta disagree. I don't even like Warren but she's a great communicator and markets herself very well when she wants to. She's had her fare share of fumbles in the debates though, the exchange where Pete calls her out for her net worth being 10x more than his comes to mind
 
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