New Hampshire Democratic debate, 8PM ET on ABC | Live Free or Don't

[Deleted member 25600]

thinking bernie is the only one who could beat trump this year is just ridiculous.

yall are thinking about things in such absolutist ways and its not good. bernie isn't the only candidate who would make things better.

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Get rid of your tunnel vision! Beating Trump is not the only thing at stake in this election. The problem we are trying to address right now is far bigger than Trump. Trump is a symptom and a preview of what's to come if we don't actually start trying to shove politics in a leftward direction.

Wealth inequality will get out of control! Climate change will get out of control! Fascism will get out of control!

 

[Deleted member 4614]

Do you hear yourself right now? At the point where you're trying to calculate someone's life expectancy, I genuinely sincerely think you should probably take a step back and realize 1) That's morbid as hell 2) Realize that Warren and Biden are both of similar ages and face the same risk factors 3) They're all affluent and have access to the best healthcare in the country and they are all going to live deep into their 90s because of it

Again, concern trolling with "We can't elect him! What if he dies!" is both silly AND ghoulish. Don't. Please don't.

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I wasn't trolling. Life expectancy is important. Elizabeth Warren's is 16 years. That's 11 years difference. It's not the only thing you should weigh obviously but ignoring it is wishful thinking. It's obviously terrifying that Trump probably had some catastrophic health event last year and no one knows what it was or seems to care.

 

[Deleted member 24149]

If Bernie is the nominee I'm taking PTO to personally drive people to pokemon go to the polls.

If anyone else is the nominee I'm just going to vote.

 

[Blue Skies]

also for the record, of course ill vote for Bernie.
a year ago I would've told you he's a lock for the win. but seeing how his support, even when added to warrens, leads to 40 or so percent of the democrat vote, then that dissuades me. seeing how he's very few peoples second choice dissuades me.

 

[Deleted member 20630]

This is all Trump has spent the past four years doing. And his base loves him for it.

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Think this through. People are fucking furious at him, in no small part because of this. So much so that he stands a very good chance of losing an election as the incumbent Potus. If he loses re-election because of it, it doesn't matter if his shrinking base loves what he did.

 

[Musubi]

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding something in your downward spiral here - No one is expecting Sanders to magically bring about a Socialist Utopia during his time in office.

A revolution by the lower classes is inevitable. Bernie Sanders and his presidency is merely one of the sparks. It will be a very long and very difficult fight and nothing will change overnight. We're going to be hit by accelerated disasters from climate change and it will require social safety nets and the government working for actual people, not the rich and corporations, to get through it without millions if not billions dead.

It is happening no matter how much you shout at your computer screen. People matter and they will fight for their lives and you will have to deal with that. One of the ways we're fighting is through Sanders and your antics are not going to dissuade any of us that are clawing tooth and nail through this.

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Exactly this. Electing Sanders wouldn't magically solve every problem. What it could do is spur a complete reworking of the democratic party for the next 20+ years that helps get a lot of that work done. What Bernie could do in his term as president isn't as exciting to me as the possible long term effect that the presidency could have on the party as a whole.

 

[Thorn]

Think this through. People are fucking furious at him, in no small part because of this. So much so that he stands a very good chance of losing an election as the incumbent Potus. If he loses re-election because of it, it doesn't matter if his shrinking base loves what he did.

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The vast majority of Voters only care about the economy. As long as that is stable Trump has a huge advantage this election.

 

[Mekanos]

There are no more moderate superstars. We are post-Obama. It isn't Hillary. It isn't Biden. It sure as fuck isn't Pete.

The Democratic party is in a transitional phase where the moderate platform is losing its popularity and the left-wing coalition is growing, but not enough where one can totally outweigh the other. It's awkward. It's not ideal. But this is our chance to swing for the fences. If we can win this, we could get huge momentum to push the party further left. This is too good of an opportunity to pass up.

I'm voting Democrat in the general, no matter what. I wish Warren was looking like the runner-up to Bernie in the primaries, I really do. I think the uphill battle against Trump in the general will be very difficult no matter what it is. But I do truly believe Bernie is the best equipped to do it. I'm willing to take that risk.

 

[Exellus]

Bernie or Bust being a "big problem" is an internet myth, perpetuated by Russian Twitter accounts in 2016 to drive a wedge in the Democratic Party and smear Bernie Sanders.

The fact is that MORE Bernie Supporters supported Hillary in the GE than Hillary supporters supported Obama in 2008. So anyone that wants to point the finger at 9% of Bernie's supporters not supporting Hillary - how about you look at Hillary herself instead? And her terrible GE campaign trail in 2016. She completely ignored campaigning in several important swing states - exactly why Trump won them (talking PA etc.).

Bernie or Bust being brought up over and over and over again is so tiring. It's a minority of a minority of people.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Think this through. People are fucking furious at him, in no small part because of this. So much so that he stands a very good chance of losing an election as the incumbent Potus. If he loses re-election because of it, it doesn't matter if his shrinking base loves what he did.

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I don't think he's going to lose. I think he's going to cheat, again, and the Democrats will be too stupid and too busy shitting on each other to pull off a cheat-proof electoral majority when it really counts. I have no faith in this country and I have no faith in its people.

In my mind, America is already dead. The gut shot has already gone septic and we're all just waiting for the heartbeat to stop.

 

[medinaria]

every time someone says bernie or busting is a reflection of "privilege" and not a reflection of "being failed by both parties to such an extent that you've given up hope that anyone at all will attempt to make your life better except for one man who actually appears to care about you" I get a little bit more comfortable with busting

we are now rapidly approaching the point where busting will, in fact, make me feel good

 

[Deleted member 20630]

The vast majority of Voters only care about the economy. As long as that is stable Trump has a huge advantage this election.

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I'm gonna need receipts on this massive advantage he has. This is a President who barely squeaked by Hillary Clinton's terrible campaign when people were way less angry and energized. That is also not a substantial response to my point about EOs.

 

[BBboy20]

y'all need to take a couple shots of reality and realize america isn't bad just because of its billionaires, but because of its people.

people are dumb as fuck

it doesn't matter that YES YALL ARE RIGHT, the rich do prop up the wealthy and both step on the poor, but you don't beat that system with a 79 year old guy calling himself a socialist!!!!!!

its way more difficult than winning the presidency, and I truly believe that a failed Bernie presidency is the worse thing possible for the movement. people are gonna be able to say now: we tried it, didn't work.
plus, just like with Obama's attempt at healthcare, expect astroturfing to make a real nice comeback. Leroy in Arkansas who really needs that healthcare is gonna be going to a lot of rallies to make sure he doesn't get it, because dark money is gonna mobilize harder than ever before.

you don't go up to this system like this, this movement is young and it will fail because y'all have the worst fucking strategy.

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ok doomer

 

[Surfinn]

I don't think he's going to lose. I think he's going to cheat, again, and the Democrats will be too stupid and too busy shitting on each other to pull off a cheat-proof electoral majority when it really counts. I have no faith in this country and I have no faith in its people.

In my mind, America is already dead. The gut shot has already gone septic and we're all just waiting for the heartbeat to stop.

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Fuck defeatism. Enough

 

[cnorwood]

Bernie or Bust being a "big problem" is an internet myth, perpetuated by Russian Twitter accounts in 2016 to drive a wedge in the Democratic Party and smear Bernie Sanders.

The fact is that MORE Bernie Supporters supported Hillary in the GE than Hillary supporters supported Obama in 2008. So anyone that wants to point the finger at 9% of Bernie's supporters not supporting Hillary - how about you look at Hillary herself instead? And her terrible GE campaign trail in 2016. She completely ignored campaigning in several important swing states - exactly why Trump won them (talking PA etc.).

Bernie or Bust being brought up over and over and over again is so tiring. It's a minority of a minority of people.

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They always spin this by saying that that election wasnt as important as 2016 so Sanders supporters are worse, its infuriating

 

[Cotton McKnight]

You're extremely privileged to think that a return to the Obama years is good enough.

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I was pro Obama until I read the 2013 Atlantic article that was talking about how he was planing for cuts to medicare.

I freaked out on how that would affect my disabled elderly mother, and it was all before we got the diagnosis for our Autistic kiddo (in 2016). Why would a main staple of the Democrat party be rolled back?

They were going more and more to the right.

At that point I had to look for something else.

Oh by the way, Mom died in 2018. Medicare would not help her one bit with her ailing kidney's. Mrs. Cotton and I bought a bigger house to move her in with us. She died a week before we could move her across the country. My Mom had a shit life, and I experienced it with her as a child.

I'm done with status quo democrats, unless they're the nominee. Gotta fight the GOP any way one can.

Really long way of saying, yes you're right, the Obama years were not good enough.

 

[Deleted member 20630]

I don't think he's going to lose. I think he's going to cheat, again, and the Democrats will be too stupid and too busy shitting on each other to pull off a cheat-proof electoral majority when it really counts. I have no faith in this country and I have no faith in its people.

In my mind, America is already dead. The gut shot has already gone septic and we're all just waiting for the heartbeat to stop.

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But he didn't solely because he cheated the first time, and people were far less furious then than they are now. He did cheat, and it did help, but I think if you over-emphasize that to such an absurd degree, you end up not learning from the past because you misdiagnose the problem, and the problem was absolutely at the feet of the person he campaigned against.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Fuck defeatism.

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If the Democrats are able to pull it out in November, I'll be as happy as anyone else. But I expect nothing but failure from them at this point. Even if we win the presidency, it's not like we're going to take back the Senate. Which means four more years of Mitch screwing the world.

 

[Keith Stat]

YOU WAKE THE FUCK UP.

Nobody likes Warren, Pete, or Biden. Bernie is the current favorite and has all the momentum. Young people WILL turn out in November and he's going to be the best president in American history.

I ain't worried about Trump. I ain't worried about the Senate. I'm worried about the Democratic party actually following HIM.

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Hah, NOBODY?! And ALL the momentum is with Bernie?! In your social circle, probably, but c'mon. Over 70% of Iowa didn't vote for Bernie.

And to be clear, I'm firmly in the Warren/Bernie camp. I adore Bernie.

Pete is probably my least favorite right now, but if he is the option come November i'll walk barefoot on broken glass to vote for him if the alternative is Trump.

I'm happy you're passionate, but whomever is the candidate will certainly need wayyyy more than the youth vote. It's just math.

 

[Wraith]

whenever i hear granite state i just think of breaking bad

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Hence the cover image.

 

[Tiger Priest]

My thoughts: Get Steyer and Yang off the stage. Warren is finished too - she looked weak. Media is still pushing Amy but this is a four horse race now between the four B's: Buttigieg, Bernie, Biden, and Bloomberg. I think Pete's momentum carries him to win NH at this point, and then Nevada is a pretty big wild card (especially because it's impossible to poll correctly).

 

[Deleted member 20630]

If the Democrats are able to pull it out in November, I'll be as happy as anyone else. But I expect nothing but failure from them at this point. Even if we win the presidency, it's not like we're going to take back the Senate. Which means four more years of Mitch screwing the world.

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Nothing is certain, but this is also why we should elect the guy who has EXTENSIVE plans for what he can do solely through executive action. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/02/bernie-executive-orders-democracy-movements

 

[BobLoblaw]

Exactly this. Electing Sanders wouldn't magically solve every problem. What it could do is spur a complete reworking of the democratic party for the next 20+ years that helps get a lot of that work done. What Bernie could do in his term as president isn't as exciting to me as the possible long term effect that the presidency could have on the party as a whole.

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Bernie would still have to contend with moderate Dems in Congress, so all $100 trillion of his proposals would be scaled way the hell back (if they're considered at all) anyway. This notion that Dems in Congress will just go along with whatever he proposes as-is needs to be forgotten. The Nancy Pelosis and Chuck Schumers of the world ain't having it.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Nothing is certain, but this is also why we should elect the guy who has EXTENSIVE plans for what he can do solely through executive action. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/02/bernie-executive-orders-democracy-movements

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Executive action isn't going to save the world. It can hurt it very badly, because it's easier to cause damage than it is to fix it. All Bernie's executive actions will do is give the next Republican a handy dandy checklist of policies to butcher the second he waltzes into the White House.

 

[Deleted member 20630]

My thoughts: Get Steyer and Yang off the stage. Warren is finished too - she looked weak. Media is still pushing Amy but this is a four horse race now between the four B's: Buttigieg, Bernie, Biden, and Bloomberg. I think Pete's momentum carries him to win NH at this point, and then Nevada is a pretty big wild card (especially because it's impossible to poll correctly).

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Alternatively, keep Steyer on stage. He pushed the other candidates to confront important issues that were not being brought up, and put a national spotlight on things like reparations. Let him stick around to keep doing that.

 

[Exellus]

Bernie would still have to contend with moderate Dems in Congress, so all $100 trillion of his proposals would be scaled way the hell back (if they're considered at all) anyway. This notion that Dems in Congress will just go along with whatever he proposes as-is needs to be forgotten. The Nancy Pelosis and Chuck Schumers of the world ain't having it.

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I can see this. I think a lot of his ideas wouldn't be fully realized until a Democrat president 8 years later or so. But we need the party to see that this is the right way forward. NOT "center".

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Fuck defeatism. Enough

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He can't help himself, this is how he thinks about everything.

 

[julian]

I just get frustrated on this site when bernie is treated as the only sane option. he's not. and theres a 50-50 chance he won't be the candidate, and I don't want people to just give up on November if its not him.

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Stop treating every person who supports Bernie as a Bernie or buster. And I find this statement absolutely ridiculous given how many times I've seen "Biden will clearly be the nominee" posted over and over again on this forum. Or "Just wait for the black vote." Or "Only a moderate can win."

 

[Deleted member 20630]

Executive action isn't going to save the world. It can hurt it very badly, because it's easier to cause damage than it is to fix it. All Bernie's executive actions will do is give the next Republican a handy dandy checklist of policies to butcher the second he waltzes into the White House.

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We can keep going in circles about this, but I've said all I have to say about the efficacy of his EO plan. Two things, though. One, you didn't even bother reading the article I linked. Thanks for that. Two, and more importantly, let's say 8 years from now a Republican gets elected and rolls back all of his executive action and somehow doesn't incur such fierce and ferocious backlash that they immediately lose re-election. Let's say all of that is true.

So in that worst case scenario, at least Bernie still did something that improved people's lives noticeably for 8 years. At least he showed people that better things are possible. It's at least worth trying to improve people's lives instead of just wallowing in "America is dead and nothing can ever be good so let's not even try" misery.

 

[Blue Skies]

Stop treating every person who supports Bernie as a Bernie or buster. And I find this statement absolutely ridiculous given how many times I've seen "Biden will clearly be the nominee" posted over and over again on this forum. Or "Just wait for the black vote." Or "Only a moderate can win."

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its not about the Bernie or bust, its about the idea that he's the only good candidate and that anyone else is "status quo" or some sort of step backwards. its the wrong attitude to have when this race is literally up for grabs and we should all mentally prepare to maybe not have our preferred candidate win

 

[Tiger Priest]

Alternatively, keep Steyer on stage. He pushed the other candidates to confront important issues that were not being brought up, and put a national spotlight on things like reparations. Let him stick around to keep doing that.

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Yes we really need candidates who bribe their way into the race on stage.

He's a joke candidate and is not a serious contender and is therefore wasting everyone's time when the field needs to be winnowing.

 

[Rune Walsh]

I met my first Butti supporters this evening. Predictably, they were upper-middle class, college-educated white people with only the most vague notions of his plans. I don't think they cared for me calling out his horrendous polling with minorities.

 

[Deleted member 20630]

Yes we really need candidates who bribe their way into the race on stage.

He's a joke candidate and is not a serious contender and is therefore wasting everyone's time when the field needs to be winnowing.

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Did you mean to quote my post, or did you reply to mine by accident? I'm just asking because you didn't actually respond to what I said.

It's possible you don't think there's value in bringing more national attention to systemic racism, reparations, and some of the other points that Steyer brought up, but I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Tiger Priest]

Did you mean to quote my post, or did you reply to mine by accident? I'm just asking because you didn't actually respond to what I said.

It's possible you don't think there's value in bringing more national attention to systemic racism, reparations, and some of the other points the Steyer brought up, but I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt.

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I'm responding to your point that Steyer belongs on the debate stage. He is everything wrong with the system personified, regardless of the relevancy of his ideas. I'm happy to see those ideas discussed but not from him.

 

[Keith Stat]

My thoughts: Get Steyer and Yang off the stage. Warren is finished too - she looked weak. Media is still pushing Amy but this is a four horse race now between the four B's: Buttigieg, Bernie, Biden, and Bloomberg. I think Pete's momentum carries him to win NH at this point, and then Nevada is a pretty big wild card (especially because it's impossible to poll correctly).

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Alternatively, keep Steyer on stage. He pushed the other candidates to confront important issues that were not being brought up, and put a national spotlight on things like reparations. Let him stick around to keep doing that.

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So, kick out the woman who got 18% of the vote in Iowa for the billionaire who got .3% of the vote. Got it.

And saying Warren looked "weak" is certainly an ugly way to characterize one of the remaining female candidates.

 

[Deleted member 20630]

I'm responding to your point that Steyer belongs on the debate stage. He is everything wrong with the system personified, regardless of the relevancy of his ideas. I'm happy to see those ideas discussed but not from him.

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But the thing is, he was the one who shifted the conversation onto those things. So......yeah, as long as he's doing that, he has value on the stage.

 

[Exellus]

Just donated $27 to Sanders. And I thought about you guys as I did it. Thanks for the extra motivation.

 

[Tiger Priest]

So, kick out the woman who got 18% of the vote in Iowa for the billionaire who got .3% of the vote. Got it.

And saying Warren looked "weak" is certainly an ugly way to characterize one of the remaining female candidates.

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I never said get Warren off the stage. I said get Yang and Steyer off the stage.

Warren did have a weak performance. How would you prefer me to phrase that?

 

[Deleted member 20630]

So, kick out the woman who got 18% of the vote in Iowa for the billionaire who got .3% of the vote. Got it.

And saying Warren looked "weak" is certainly an ugly way to characterize one of the remaining female candidates.

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I'm sorry, wtf are you talking about? I see Tiger saying Warren should get kicked off the stage, but I'm struggling to find the part where I said that she should be cut, let alone that she should be cut in favor or Steyer. Are y'all ok?

 

[Tiger Priest]

I'm sorry, wtf are you talking about? I see Tiger saying Warren should get kicked off the stage, but I'm struggling to find the part where I said that she should be cut, let alone that she should be cut in favor or Steyer. Are y'all ok?

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Don't misquote me. I never said get Warren off the stage.

When I say she's finished that's prognostication but she at least belongs up there because she's a serious contender accruing delegates. Same with Amy. I don't think Yang and Steyer are serious candidates.

 

[julian]

its not about the Bernie or bust, its about the idea that he's the only good candidate and that anyone else is "status quo" or some sort of step backwards. its the wrong attitude to have when this race is literally up for grabs and we should all mentally prepare to maybe not have our preferred candidate win

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If it's not about being Bernie or bust, why does it matter how somebody views the other candidates? Your post makes no sense unless you assume those posters are unwilling to vote for whichever Democrat wins.

 

[Deleted member 11046]

... we should all mentally prepare to maybe not have our preferred candidate win

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Yup.

 

[Mulligan]

Damn. We're at each other's throats tonight.

 

[Deleted member 20630]

Don't misquote me. I never said get Warren off the stage.

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I interpreted you following "Get Steyer and Yang" with "Warren is done too" as meaning she should get cut, too. Is that interpretation wrong? If it is, I apologize.

 

[Madison]

If the Democrats are able to pull it out in November, I'll be as happy as anyone else. But I expect nothing but failure from them at this point. Even if we win the presidency, it's not like we're going to take back the Senate. Which means four more years of Mitch screwing the world.

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More like Mood Smasher amirite

 

[Tiger Priest]

I interpreted you following "Get Steyer and Yang" with "Warren is done too" as meaning she should get cut, too. Is that interpretation wrong? If it is, I apologize.

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It's ok. I definitely think she belongs up there. She is my second choice after Pete right now. I get angry at seeing two joke candidates still up there when voting has started.

 

[Rune Walsh]

Damn. We're at each other's throats tonight.

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For real. I came in looking to see how the debate went since I missed it. I'll check back tomorrow after they mop up the blood apparently.

 

[Keith Stat]

I'm sorry, wtf are you talking about? I see Tiger saying Warren should get kicked off the stage, but I'm struggling to find the part where I said that she should be cut, let alone that she should be cut in favor or Steyer. Are y'all ok?

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You said she was "finished." I took that as you wanted her to drop out. I apologize if that wasn't your intent.

I also don't think you meant it in a malicious way, but saying the leading female candidate "looked weak" isn't a good look.

You said nothing of Steyer and that had to do with the other message that was quoted in my message.

EDIT: Sorry. I'm fucking up and got your names mixed. Just disregard this all. Just weird seeing the cheerleading of billionaire Steyer, who bought his way on the stage and dismissal of Warren in some of these posts. I'm happily Bernie/Warren.

 

[KidAAlbum]

Executive action isn't going to save the world. It can hurt it very badly, because it's easier to cause damage than it is to fix it. All Bernie's executive actions will do is give the next Republican a handy dandy checklist of policies to butcher the second he waltzes into the White House.

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This entire time we've been hearing how we must vote blue no matter (I'm going to btw) what for the sake of those not being privileged enough to withstand another Trump presidency. Isn't executive action the same thought process in that it's there to just make shit a little better for that small window?

However, it's a good thing that Bernie is going to try to organize protests across the nation for those that are not on his, or rather our side. Now is the perfect opportunity to attack republicans for corruption (yes I know they don't care for the most part), because when a right winger who doesn't run on lobbied interests could be in our near future. And it will be that much harder to win a small portion of that base over.

Bernie is only the start. We have AOC to take over after Bernie is gone. They understand changes happens from the bottom. I need politicians who will fight.

Completely unrelated to your post, but relevant to earlier posts


*Video of republicans and fox news using the same tactic.

 

[Deleted member 20630]

You said she was "finished." I took that as you wanted her to drop out. I apologize if that wasn't your intent.

I also don't think you meant it in a malicious way, but saying the leading female candidate "looked weak" isn't a good look.

You said nothing of Steyer and that had to do with the other message that was quoted in my message.

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I said no such thing at all. I said neither of these two things. So again I'm gonna ask wtf are you talking about?