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rustyphish

Member
May 13, 2019
611
For a start this isn't a court of law and second, the devs have already explained why. Let me know of other devs that go into meticulous detail about their development struggles while a game is being made.


No one said this is a court of law? I'm not sure how this is relevant


Many, many devs do this. Dev blogs, community outreach... hell, even Nintendo themselves admitted when the Metroid development wasn't going well and issued an apology video detailing they had had a setback.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,114
I suppose that while that is true, the majority of the work force doesn't really begin to touch the game until the previous games are finished up on.
Or at least, I assume this is the case. You'd have teams of animators and riggers and coders and what not working of Let's Go, and Sun and Moon, and Ultra sun and moon, while the SwSh team remains tiny for most of this time.
I don't entirely think that's true, by that logic SWSH wouldn't have had much work done until Let's Go was done. Whereas we know Max Raid Battles were developed at the same time Game Freak were helping Niantic with Raid Battles back in late 2016/early 2017.
No one said this is a court of law? I'm not sure how this is relevant


Many, many devs do this. Dev blogs, community outreach... hell, even Nintendo themselves admitted when the Metroid development wasn't going well and issued an apology video detailing they had had a setback.
Yes, Nintendo did that in one example, but no developer mentions every problem they've had, every bit of development progress. That's not how the industry works
 

Deleted member 32018

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,628
Many, many devs do this. Dev blogs, community outreach... hell, even Nintendo themselves admitted when the Metroid development wasn't going well and issued an apology video detailing they had had a setback.

Many devs don't do this, not while the game is being made. Afterwards when they are patching things sure. Also Metroid wasn't a setback, it was a full restart... and yes even then that was unusual. When BotW got delayed they never went into much detail as to why.

No one said this is a court of law? I'm not sure how this is relevant

You're trying to force this idea of 'burden of proof'. You're not a dev, I'm not a dev. I would rather listen to the devs from that article than whatever conspiracy theory you have about why the National Dex is not in the games.
 

rustyphish

Member
May 13, 2019
611
I don't entirely think that's true, by that logic SWSH wouldn't have had much work done until Let's Go was done. Whereas we know Max Raid Battles were developed at the same time Game Freak were helping Niantic with Raid Battles back in late 2016/early 2017.

Yes, Nintendo did that in one example, but no developer mentions every problem they've had, every bit of development progress. That's not how the industry works


I didn't say any developer mentions "every" problem they've had.

All I'm asking is do we have any comment, evidence, reason to assume this happened here, or are we purely speculating?

I'm not even saying it couldn't possibly true, all I'm asking is if we're on this path because of something we have evidence of, or if it's a thought experiment.
 

rustyphish

Member
May 13, 2019
611
Many devs don't do this, not while the game is being made. Afterwards when they are patching things sure. Also Metroid wasn't a setback, it was a full restart... and yes even then that was unusual. When BotW got delayed they never went into much detail as to why.



You're trying to force this idea of 'burden of proof'. You're not a dev, I'm not a dev. I would rather listen to the devs from that article than whatever conspiracy theory you have about why the National Dex is not in the games.

This is exactly why I'm asking if we've actually heard this from the developers or if we're speculating lol
 

Deleted member 48434

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 8, 2018
5,230
Sydney
I don't entirely think that's true, by that logic SWSH wouldn't have had much work done until Let's Go was done. Whereas we know Max Raid Battles were developed at the same time Game Freak were helping Niantic with Raid Battles back in late 2016/early 2017.

Yes, Nintendo did that in one example, but no developer mentions every problem they've had, every bit of development progress. That's not how the industry works
I was under the impression that Let's Go was only being worked on by a relatively small team, shot in the dark here, maybe 1/3 of GF, so you'd have 2/3 of GF working on SwSh after Ultra SuMo, but before the end of Let's go.

In any case, the more I probe here as to GF's situation, the more disappointed in them I find myself.
It's not even the cutting of Pokemon that bothers me (much) as I use entirely new teams with every game, and care little for postgame. I just feel like GF has been actively ignoring and refusing to acknowledge fans like myself (Long time fans who have no interest in competitive battling) ever since XY. And it's not like comp fans have been getting much in the way of special treatment either.

I expect so little of them that if they turned around and said "Hey, here's a proper actual hard more for the story" I'd probably be over joyed and call it my favorite Pokemon ever, like, is it so damn hard to do this? I LOVED how USUM threw some actual curveballs at me in terms of difficulty, Like Togedemaru and Guzma, not to mention Ultra Necrozma. Throw some proper double battles in the story, bring back triple battles!

God I want a hard mode so badly.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,114
This is exactly why I'm asking if we've actually heard this from the developers or if we're speculating lol
The developers have said they had to redo models. We've been trying to work out what specifically they meant about that since the wireframes seem similar and the logical conclusion from talking to developers is that the animation rigs broke and they had to remake them and reimplant the animations on them and test, which takes a lot of time.

But, we need to wait and see if this was the case.
 

rustyphish

Member
May 13, 2019
611
The developers have said they had to redo models. We've been trying to work out what specifically they meant about that since the wireframes seem similar and the logical conclusion from talking to developers is that the animation rigs broke and they had to remake them and reimplant the animations on them and test, which takes a lot of time.

But, we need to wait and see if this was the case.

Do you have a quote? I'd like to know the context, but I can't find it with a cursory google search

Didn't Masuda say they knew they'd "eventually" have to cut the roster and had considered it before? That seems like it would be a strange thing to say if it came down to a coding error
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,114
Do you have a quote? I'd like to know the context, but I can't find it with a cursory google search

Didn't Masuda say they knew they'd "eventually" have to cut the roster and had considered it before? That seems like it would be a strange thing to say if it came down to a coding error
Probably because they knew something would inevitably break and not be an easy fix, that could be why it almost happened with Sun & Moon as Sun & Moon is a different engine to XY and so it could have happened there but been able to be fixed by a tool


D_n8sHyVUAAYsSJ


Could you imagine if it had happened with Sun & Moon. You think people are struggling to understand it now, imagine fthem struggling when the game is on the same system. People can't seem to differentiate system and engine
 

Future Gazer

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
4,273
User banned (3 days): hostility. History of similar behavior
That's hilarious.

It's also BS. The previous footage was in 1080

Yeah and that post that's stickied shows a distinct lack of understanding of game development. I would point out the faults but I get dogpiled every time I don't join the whole "WAAA GAME FREAK SUCK" bandwagon.

It can take upwards of a week to do a single animation. A dozen+ animations per Pokémon.

If the model rigs broke when on the new/updated engine (which does happen as many gave developers here and around the net have tried to tell people) then the results are catastrophic if they couldn't use a tool to fix it. They'd have to...redo all the models (models are more than wireframes, something people need to understand but seem to ignore and so because wireframes are similar/the same, clearly that's "incorrect"), once the model rigs and skeletal structure of the models is on, they'd need to reimplant the animation, then bug test it. If it didn't work, they'd need to re record the animation and as they're not human models, they can't just have a standard frame imported.

1000+ models * 12 animations = 12000 animations to check. Approximately a week for an animation of implanting, testing, checking, fixing, rechecking etc. = 12000 weeks

Even with 100 staff just on that alone, that's still over 2 years.

People need to do the maths before mouthing off.

Note: I have spoken to numerous game developers about this scenario. This is not me pulling things out of my ass.

lmao. You really need to stop trying to comment on technical details. This is absolutely you pulling things out of your ass and an incredibly myopic view of game development.
 

Future Gazer

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
4,273
Or me having discussed things with multiple developers and finding out how things are

If after "finding out how things are" you still think it would take anywhere close to 2 years for a dedicated team of 100 professionals to implement the basic animations we've seen in Sword/Shield, you must not have been paying much attention.
 

Deleted member 32018

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Birdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
26,289
I can't hate Pokemon Camp because it's an evolution of Refresh which was an evolution of Amie so it's good they're building on that.

Also seeing your whole team on screen at once is pretty neat.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,631
man poor indie studio gamefreak... doesnt have the money to hire more people to work on the biggest media franchise on the planet. to keep the core of the series going.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,400
Chicago
Oh boy, here we go again.

I'm all for voicing disappointment and questioning developer intentions.

But this is just reaching and looking for reasons to be stuck in a loop of unsatisfaction.

People are acting like nobody wants every single Pokemon ever made to be in the game. Ideally, I'm pretty sure we'd all like that...

At some point, you just kind of have to get over the fact that many different things are at play here and I think people like the ones on Reddit making these threads are not really making the moves to get over the situation. Not sure if there is any way to send GF a direct fan letter but I think they should do something to get their voices heard and move on with it.

No one here wakes up hoping for GF to just cut Pokemon and great features. For all we know this can end up a fantastic Pokemon game nonetheless. But people will just lock in on what is missing or what they think it should be.

When it comes to GF, this is no surprise. This has always been their MO.

giphy.gif


I can't hate Pokemon Camp because it's an evolution of Refresh which was an evolution of Amie so it's good they're building on that.

Also seeing your whole team on screen at once is pretty neat.

Amie gave us some amazing memes and gifs on par with the Luigi MK8 stare (maybe not as popular).

But I really like this evolution of it. Camp could be the next step for the BoTW scale Pokemon game ERA dreams about.

Just kidding, GF will probably cut this in the next game :lol.
 
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Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,268
I'm all for voicing disappointment and questioning developer intentions.

But this is just reaching and looking for reasons to be stuck in a loop of unsatisfaction.

People are acting like nobody wants every single Pokemon ever made to be in the game. Ideally, I'm pretty sure we'd all like that...

At some point, you just kind of have to get over the fact that many different things are at play here and I think people like the ones on Reddit making these threads are not really making the moves to get over the situation. Not sure if there is any way to send GF a direct fan letter but I think they should do something to get their voices heard and move on with it.

No one here wakes up hoping for GF to just cut Pokemon and great features. For all we know this can end up a fantastic Pokemon game nonetheless. But people will just lock in on what is missing or what they think it should be.

When it comes to GF, this is no surprise. This has always been their MO.

giphy.gif




Amie gave us some amazing memes and gifs on par with the Luigi MK8 stare (maybe not as popular).

But I really like this evolution of it. Camp could be the next step for the BoTW scale Pokemon game ERA dreams about.

Just kidding, GF will probably cut this in the next game :lol.
Just like they cut customization and amie? 🤔
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,114
DistantKingdom yet again. I wonder if there's anything he does on his youtube other than negativity. His first video did well due to posting on Reddit and the algorithm and so practically every video since has been harping on the same negativity in order to get views. I remember when he tried to discredit me in one using Google Translate to say professional translations I had done were wrong. He's cropped that bit out now.

He also doesn't understand game development. Of course they reused animations. Are they really going to make new happy animations when happy animations exist already?
If after "finding out how things are" you still think it would take anywhere close to 2 years for a dedicated team of 100 professionals to implement the basic animations we've seen in Sword/Shield, you must not have been paying much attention.
Yeah that must be it, nothing to do with how many animations there are and how long it takes to re-implement and properly test, but sure.
 

MegaXZero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 21, 2018
5,079
DistantKingdom yet again. I wonder if there's anything he does on his youtube other than negativity. His first video did well due to posting on Reddit and the algorithm and so practically every video since has been harping on the same negativity in order to get views. I remember when he tried to discredit me in one using Google Translate to say professional translations I had done were wrong. He's cropped that bit out now.
Yeah it's hard to want to engage with that subreddit community when they hold up toxic shitheads. The fact the mods there pinned that misinformation post is disappointing.
 

Serif

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,787
He also doesn't understand game development. Of course they reused animations. Are they really going to make new happy animations when happy animations exist already?
Yeah that must be it, nothing to do with how many animations there are and how long it takes to re-implement and properly test, but sure.

To be fair, people are excessively nitpicking reused models and animations since high-quality animations were stated as a reason for the Pokedex cut. People 100% expected and desired the models and animations from the 3DS to be used since they were already good and available for every Pokemon. Now the rationale is that since Refresh animations were repurposed for Camp, and every Pokemon has a nice set of Refresh animations, why not bring them all over? And of course the reality of whatever occurred in development is unknown to us, but people are going to be nitpicking regardless.
 

arlu

Member
Nov 1, 2017
473
Venezuela
If after "finding out how things are" you still think it would take anywhere close to 2 years for a dedicated team of 100 professionals to implement the basic animations we've seen in Sword/Shield, you must not have been paying much attention.

I'm not an "expert" but let us do this one extrapolation example:

Zelda Breath of the Wild has around 30 creatures in the, err, wild. That includes everything from fairies to wolves, birds, crabs, fishes, deers, bears, horses, dogs, etc. IT TOOK A TEAM OF TWO PEOPLE AROUND A YEAR TO ANIMATE AND GIVE THEM AI BEHAVIOUR. (This, we know from explicit statements from Aonuma).

So, we don't know the exact number of new Pokémons nor how many will make the cut in total, but given everything new we've seem, like Gigantamaxing, Poké Camp, new moves, updated animations, Pokémon walks and runs, testing, rigging, re-do, cutscenes maybe? Yeah... I think is safe to speculate that a team of 100+ people would take around two years of animation alone for this game.
 

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,662
The thing is, I don't mind that reused all these animations for camp. They're all great, and they should be carried over.

It's about the time where they said they are sacrificing the dex for better animation.
I'm still buying the game, and will enjoy it (looking forward to the camp feature, as well), but the reason they're coming under fire (at least from me), is that they don't need to make shitty excuses for dexit.
 

diakyu

Member
Dec 15, 2018
17,518
I see they made it right by including Rotom in the dex when your pokedex has one in it. No idea why they just left it out in Sun and Moon lol
 

KillstealWolf

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,044
What bothers me is that they don't re-use these Amie/Refresh/Camp animations in the actual battles. You've got a set of Sleeping Animations for Amie, yet they never see use in battles when your pokemon is set to sleep.

tumblr_ophi0xwmwu1ttdkobo1_400.gif


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c8b.gif


178.gif


BestLightHarborseal-small.gif


Yes I know not every pokemon has their animations, but you could use them for those that do.
 
Feb 22, 2019
271
I don't mind that they reuse the models and animations since that is expected. But didn't say there were going to be new, more expressive animations? We still haven't seen them, not even in camp.
 

KillstealWolf

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,044
I don't mind that they reuse the models and animations since that is expected. But didn't say there were going to be new, more expressive animations? We still haven't seen them, not even in camp.

The trainer got a noticable upgrade, I'll give them that compared to Sun and Moon and the Let's Go blank slates.

The pokemon though is still something I'm waiting on.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,268
What bothers me is that they don't re-use these Amie/Refresh/Camp animations in the actual battles. You've got a set of Sleeping Animations for Amie, yet they never see use in battles when your pokemon is set to sleep.

tumblr_ophi0xwmwu1ttdkobo1_400.gif


1523559321900.gif


c8b.gif


178.gif


BestLightHarborseal-small.gif


Yes I know not every pokemon has their animations, but you could use them for those that do.
I don't think they fit battles very well, they're peaceful and cute. Nobody wants to attack a cute sleeping Rockruff
 

pokéfan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,304
What bothers me is that they don't re-use these Amie/Refresh/Camp animations in the actual battles. You've got a set of Sleeping Animations for Amie, yet they never see use in battles when your pokemon is set to sleep.

tumblr_ophi0xwmwu1ttdkobo1_400.gif


1523559321900.gif


c8b.gif


178.gif


BestLightHarborseal-small.gif


Yes I know not every pokemon has their animations, but you could use them for those that do.
That's exactly it, why can't they added these expressive animations into battles from the mini games, the battles are pretty static, not literally, but you get my point, it can be more expressive.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
That's exactly it, why can't they added these expressive animations into battles from the mini games, the battles are pretty static, not literally, but you get my point, it can be more expressive.
This has always been my annoyance. I've said it before, but battles are seen by 100% of players, while these side features by a much smaller subset, so when they prioritize their efforts on them it irks me a bit
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,439
I imagine they don't include those animations because stuff like Raichu being asleep on its tail restfully isn't what they want to portray battles as being like. Sleep already grinds battle's pace to a halt, and them falling asleep stand up and popping their eyes open to wake back up is a faster and easier transition that keeps things moving.