It's been talked and I don't know why is it such a problem.
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New Pokémon Sword & Shield Trailer (Gigantamaxing, new pokémon, version exclusive gym leaders and Pokémon)
- Thread starter Xavi
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It's been talked and I don't know why is it such a problem.
But remaking every model from the ground up, to painstakingly match every vertice of the 3DS models... That can't be an adequate use of development resources. I'm not saying anyone is incompetent, but surely that time could be spent more wisely on other things.
Think of it like painting. It's easier to just paint a picture than to painstakingly recreate an existing picture down to the finest detail.
Maybe because those are the only options in this situation.
Ohmori either lied because the models are 1 to 1 matches, or Game Freak are so incompetent that they built their new engine without their massive future proofed asset library in mind and then took the time to painstakingly remake the models to the exact vertex placement when they could have instead taken that time to improve them for the new hardware.
Why would they decide to use an engine that is incompatible with their hundreds and thousands of assets they specifically created to be future proof
Things will get way more heated when people get the game and start datamining it, especially if some people get disappointed with the game...
I mean, sure, they didn't say every model. You got me.
Can't we already do that by comparing the Let's go models to XY?
Uh... No, they aren't? The only thing I can see over here is a bunch of arm chair developers spinning something to fit their argument and an actual verafied developer telling why it could be a possibility and being outright ignored.
???
You're joking right? The whole point is to back up your argument and reasoning with actual evidence. So far, only the guy came in and showed why models potentially weren't remade, meanwhile you keep talking about "multiple voices" and ignore that the people who are arguing that it is remade, didn't show any comprehensive evidence to back up what they said. Backing up your claims is not a stalemate. It's lending credence to your arguments.
Here's the thing though, they have a massive asset library that was made to a higher quality than what was needed on 3DS specifically to save time in the future, surely compatibility with that library would be one of the top priorities when updating their engine for Switch. On top of that we have the fact that you can line up the 3DS models to match shots of SwSh and every vertex edge lines up perfectly, so if they remade them from scratch why would they waste the time making sure they are a 1 to 1 match for the 3DS models?
It's not like this is a highly interactive game with tons of new systems being put in place that make the old assets not work with the new stuff, we're talking about Pokemon, a turn based RPG with very stationary battles.
Reminder that Let's Go used the 3DS models for every Kanto Pokemon with no issue whatsoever. It isn't a problem with the Switch.
Reminder that both Gen 6 and 7 ran like absolute garbage in battles because all of the Pokemon models were too high-poly for the 3DS, meaning they had to be future-proofed.
If they remade every model, not only does that make Gen 6 and 7 worse in retrospect because they don't have an excuse to run as poorly as they do, but they also are blatantly not doing something that they've shown they can do in Let's Go.
Reminder that both Gen 6 and 7 ran like absolute garbage in battles because all of the Pokemon models were too high-poly for the 3DS, meaning they had to be future-proofed.
If they remade every model, not only does that make Gen 6 and 7 worse in retrospect because they don't have an excuse to run as poorly as they do, but they also are blatantly not doing something that they've shown they can do in Let's Go.
I can't think of a game that goes from portable to home console that had future proof models. Mostly are made from scratch because they want the models to look better but the portable models were already low poly compared to the Pokémon models.
I mean, sure. And that's actually kind of what I've been trying to get at, I'm sure there are legacy models that have been heavily reworked or maybe some of those have even effectively been created from scratch. I actually think that could have taken up plenty of resources.
But people are actually ignoring stuff like the identical Lucario and Arcanine model and claiming it all has to have been recreated from scratch when those are visibly identical. That's silly.
It hasn't even been more than a few hours since the last post about there being over 500 people credited in Sun and Moon. We need to stop talking about how "small" GF is lol.
It's also disingenuous to put everything down to brand name. I'm pretty sure most Pokemon fans who will end up buying these games are buying it because they either like the Pokemon themselves or the gameplay. It might only be 500K less people buying the game because millions of people just don't care how elaborate the Tail Whip animation is or about the smoothness of Gyarados whiskers.
Reminder that both games could be running in different engines
Lol, that will be the last thing on my mind once I got the game in my hands, I'm just ready for the new gen
Saying "over 500 people worked on Sun and Moon" is... such an overstatement when you talk into account that those credits include 8 different localization teams, and marketing.
To clarify, my point in the Dexit debate is that Game Freak is not afforded adequate resources to develop Pokemon games to the standard appropriate for games that sell as much as these do. Not that Game Freak are lazy, or anything like that. Just that they aren't given the budget they need. I don't think they're hacks, or anything like that. Just so that's clear.
Things are not binary and dont extrapolate what I said and make it sound like I said something different. Updating your engine so it uses modern physics, modern shaders, better animation based solutions, different kind of lighting etc REQUIRES you to check every single old asset you are importing, thats unavoidable! Maybe the polycount needs to be changed, maybe the rigs are acting funky, maybe the textures dont work well with the new lights, maybe all new materials for every creature need to be made. Its a ton of fucking work that is oftentimes solved by just remaking the damn thing.
The biggest disconnect between fans and developers is that fans are always shocked when something DOESNT work. Developers are shocked when something DOES work because 99% of the time everything breaks at the slightest hitch. There is a VERY HIGH chance that your favorite most polished game is one minor bug away from crashing all the way to hell but you just don't know it. This happens all the way from prototyping to ship
See, that's the thing. There are no shades of gray for this situation. Ohmori could have used slight hyperbole, he could have been referring to the textures and used layman's terms for his audience - no one knows. And even then, a library that got used for seven years, on nine mainline titles, multiple mobile apps, 2 3DS apps, multiple spinoff titles, and even other franchises before they decided it wasn't up to snuff still meets the requirement for being future proofed.
Just as was said here different devs have different standards and reasoning, even on the same team, and their own ideas about what each aspect of development means. But there's no middle ground, apparently; that have to be lying, or they HAVE to be making excuses, the variations in the way we communicate (and are translated across languages) couldn't possibly be at play here. EDIT - Or, you know, any of the stuff brought up here.
It's all about finding the noose to hang them with, which is a bad faith argument, and something a large portion of this fandom has been looking for... well before the 3DS era in fact.
EDIT - There can't even be a middle ground between JustinP and the Raging Spaniard, considering that both of their core points aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
JustinP isn't an armchair developer. I don't think there's anything incompatible with what him and Raging Spaniard said since even the latter says that 'from scratch' may be too strong a word, but for Ohmori it may as well sufficiently conveyed the amount of work that ended up having to be done for each model to the point where they couldn't do that for every single Pokemon. I don't think he's lying, I'm assuming there were more complications that happened with their new engine that they effectively had to adjust all the models.
Ngl, it's funny when we all bought into the idea. It made sense until all this nonsense happened. Like what was the point of doing all the work in future-proofing and saving time, if you were going to change it anyway.
This is Pokemon though, the physics and animation systems seem to be just as basic as they were on 3DS, the only thing here that really lines up with what you said is lighting/shaders, but both use Cel shading, it's not like we're going from cartoony to realistic with PBR.
This would be an acceptable argument if it wasn't so easy to match models up and see every single vertex edge being exactly the same.
I could believe that if they didn't say they never plan to have every Pokemon in a game again. If it was just that certain issues cropped up in the development of this game why would they then decide that they are going to just do a curated list of Pokemon every game instead of trying to fix the issues in future titles?
I just went back and looked at some footage of Sun and Moon's double battles or even the trials when weather in involved, and the frame rate and general performance takes a huge, HUGE hit because of that, and the excuse people always gave was that the models were all high-poly. Nice to know it was for nothing.
Again.
Seven years (they were in development before that).
Used in 9 mainline titles.
Multiple spinoffs.
Multiple mobile games and handheld console apps.
Other games like Smash.
All places where these models have been used.
If they got to the end of the "future" they were proofing for, they earned their mileage. Leaping to the point that they were useless before they even got started with them or that they'd have to be incompetent to want to get more out of something else doesn't really acknowledge the extent to which these have been utilized. Going "what was the point if you were going to change it anyway" really misses the forest for the trees.
I agree which is why I'm still frustrated even if I understand the difficulties of development. Like it would make sense if this resulted in there being less Sinnoh Pokemon in the game, and when the remakes come out, they're patched in through raids or DLC. This might be a possible future but I'm not really expecting it.
Think about the number of animations for each Pokémon and move. It's insane
Thank you for bringing the insight here. It's much appreciated :)
Not to mention, we lost out on triple battles, and rotation battles due to performance issues (not to mention, horde battles immensely tanked performance too).
I didn't even consider that and was just going off other posts, that's my mistake. I was under the impression the "over 500" just came down to GF, Nintendo, and Creatures developers, but didn't think about localization or marketing.
And about your point, I definitely agree. It's difficult, because they're not going to suddenly find 100 perfect employees. Each needs to go through the hiring process, the training process, etc., and that's pretty hard when the company is working on at least 2 Pokemon games on a nearly annual release schedule. They need time to increase in size organically and more adequately prepare for development imo, but that's not really going to happen when the multimedia franchise that is Pokemon needs a proper refresh every 3 years, with the games being the centerpiece of that approach.
Still, that's not affecting my decision to pick Sword up. The game looks like a lot of fun, and that's all I look for in games. The whole "Dexit" thing hasn't really changed my feelings on that.
You didn't listen to a dang thing anyone has said, did you? Like the fact that The Raging Spaniard doesn't necessarily conflict with what Justin P said, or the multiple readings and circumstances where Ohmori was speaking figuratively, or even Serebii's reminder to us that they didn't change all the models? You're acting like you found a smoking gun, when it doesn't even begin to cover all the potential realities of the situation.
You go a lot by the eye test. Theres always more going on under the hood than you think, especially shaders and materials ... plus things change, sometimes entire animation pipelines get overhauled to benefit future development, all old textures get scrapped to make new ones that work better with new shaders etc. Just saying "its an RPG and they sit still so whats the big deal" (sorry, paraphrasing) is pretty reductive. The game I work on is also mostly characters sitting around, over 170 of them and managing the workload associated with that many characters, their needs and potential updates is SO much work
Then why remade the models to look exactly the same? Why not make them better so they can use them in the Switch 2 or whatever.
well, as Raging Spaniard and Serebii have endeavored to remind us, they never said "every model" and that just what Ohmori meant could in fact be very broad, as well as statements like what's going on here that show that just relying on the eye test is a faulty argument. The way he explains it, there's more going on under the hood in regards to how a model works than things like vertices and polygons lining up.
As already mentioned by others, we don't know what exactly "remake the models" means. We don't know how many of them needed to be remade, we know they touched up textures and stuff, etc. The models that look exactly the same might be the ones they didn't touch.
It is a noticeable upgrade from Lets Go and S/M. Whole game feels like an upgrade from those games. Don't forget they also have to add new effects to some of the moves on top of Dynamixing models for every Pokemon and Gigantmaxing models as well. And if the leaks correct, region exclusive Pokemon and their models need to he created and animated.
Not saying its worth losing Pokemon over and I do think this is poor management but I believe some of the outrage has been hyperbolic to the say the least. You have people on FB, Twitter and Reddit calling them liars as if its fact.
Sure but from the Pokémon that have been show so far, I feel some of them could get some work, like Arcanine or Gyarados.
I can, considering there's a large portion of their message was deliberately ignored for almost an entire month.
This discussion had already happened just post-E3 when the famitsu article went up. It just came up again now because it was retranslated.
Considering every single translation from every single website that translates Famitsu interviews used the phrase "redo models" and not the phrase "from scratch," you can't in good faith say it was deliberately ignored.
And this thread has posted legitimate evidence that it was mistranslated.
A Japanese developer spoke about their title in a Japanese publication. There's a responsibility to hit this with more than just a surface level translation and doubling down on mob-driven talking points that cherry picked and twisted what accurate information we did have.
That's the biggest take away imo. I mean O get it, there's a lot of them and work does have to get done every gen to get them all in. It probably would have been better to say for general technical reasons rather than give a few definitive examples that lead to speculation tuning wild.
At the end of the day they want it out on X date and they probably have a roadmap to other gens and cutting the fed will make that goal easier(possible?) to achieve.
This argument over whether or not the models are old or new is a red herring to the fact that, even if every pokemon and all animations needed to be remade from scratch, Pokemon as a series is a game that justifies the effort and budget to do that.
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