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skillzilla81

Self-requested temporary ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,043
We've got evidence that something can be done and concrete examples of how to do it, instructions on how to put a little bit of light back into the world, but some of you would rather stay angry. I feel bad that you've gotten to this point, but man...

Being angry at white america is pointless. I can't be angry at something so useless and ambivalent toward me. I'd rather focus my limited time toward people who do care.

It is annoying constantly being tut-tutted by fuckheads that want me to hug the people trying to murder us, but, again that's just the status quo.
 

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
How did you get to that assumption? I didn't even talk about any of that? Please don't jump to conclusions.

Class is the biggest umbrella that covers the largest group that is suffering under an unfair system. So if you want to connect and appeal to the most priviliged group, which are white men, you can do that by showing them how that system is harming you, poor folks and even themself.

This nonsense again.

Hello, the average white man has been fucked in this country for 500 years.

You think NO ONE before you tried to convince them that it's because oligarchy? Do you know how short sighted you sound right now?
 
Jun 1, 2019
277
Not really groundbreaking research imo. I've seen this approach pull some people from some pretty far extremes in my lifetime and I try to employ it whenever possible.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,290
We've got evidence that something can be done and concrete examples of how to do it, instructions on how to put a little bit of light back into the world, but some of you would rather stay angry. I feel bad that you've gotten to this point, but man...

It's more so that going by your post, it isn't something you even have to deal with but you got no problem tryna tell others what they have to put up with...

You think some study having some evidence means everybody gotta jump up and hop to it? Man fuck all that.

By the way, what are you planning to do? Besides patronizing posters who don't tolerate "love the bigots" bullshit
 

Viriditas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
809
United States
As far as I'm concerned, this shit only works temporarily and one-on-one because most of these people are terrified of real confrontation when they don't have a group behind them.

Cosigned. Most bigots I know IRL are incredibly uncomfortable with dialogue and seem to understand on some level that they can't back up jack shit on their own. They consider the prospect of dialogue itself threatening. If they can't escape it, acting agreeable is just one way to deflect engaging with the encounter. What may have seemed like a genuine lightbulb moment, is nothing more than camouflage.

If these guys absolutely believe the only remedy to such a great social ailment is a particular kind of counseling and coddling, the least they could do is start recognizing it's a full time job and paying fucking money for it, in recognition of the effort and exhaustion this would bring. As long as these people frame it as a hobby minorities should take, while downplaying the shift of responsibility they're arguing for, they're just spouting patronizing platitudes with no real world applications.
TLDR: put your money where your mouth is or shut the fuck up.

giphy.gif
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,141
There's so many layers to this. Yes, bigots can change their ways if someone listens and assists them because that's basically the remedy for almost anything. There's just the logistics of it all: how do you do this on a world wide level? IMO, you're better off tackling the roots of bigotry like poverty, education, religion, parenting, policing, etc so that future generations are better off. If you make people's lives happier then it's harder for them to be negative or find ways to blame their existence on others.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,332
New York
I'd try reaching out with love too if I had to deal with racists at thanksgiving and shit. But since I don't...

Lmao. You white libs can have at it, my ass is tired.

giphy.gif


These mofos want to see my children suffer and turned into strange fruit. There's nothing to "talk" about. I am not here to be your magical negro.


"I find that bigotry is like trash. It's fucking gross and I don't wanna be around it..."
KP_107_Magical_Thumbnail.jpg
 
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plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,559
Cape Cod, MA
There's so many layers to this. Yes, bigots can change their ways if someone listens and assists them because that's basically the remedy for almost anything. There's just the logistics of it all: how do you do this on a world wide level? IMO, you're better off tackling the roots of bigotry like poverty, education, religion, parenting, policing, etc so that future generations are better off. If you make people's lives happier then it's harder for them to be negative or find ways to blame their existence on others.
Right? The people who most suffer bigots need to put their mental health over converting the bigots. If you've not already had so much poison poured down your throat that you can't imagine drinking another drop and can listen and help change a mind, great.

But seriously asking the targeted to convert the ignorant is not anything approaching a solution.

The Civil rights movement didn't find its successes because it leant a sympathetic ear to racists.
 
OP
OP
marmalade

marmalade

Member
Nov 28, 2018
567
the op is basically about general therapeutic techniques. non-judgemental listening, open ended questions, socratic questioning, validation...

these things work. they're why therapy works. imagine going to a psychologist and hearing them say "your views and beliefs are stupid and you just need to stop thinking that way". you would a) feel incredibly hurt and more entrenched in your beliefs than ever and b) never talk to a psychologist again.

the thing, though, is that psychologists are trained to not absorb too much of our clients' thoughts and feelings. we have to practice self care constantly to prevent burnout. we have to balance being genuinely empathetic with having enough distance to be objective. also we literally get paid to do it.

that's hard and it's not something you can just ask your everyday person to do for people who espouse extremely toxic views. i wouldn't expect it from anybody. i wouldn't ask a minority to sit down for a cup of tea with someone who believes in eugenics. it's not fair and it wouldn't be effective in any way. that's not to say that i don't think we could all be a little more empathetic and loving towards each other, but it shouldn't be the victim's responsibility to take that burden on themselves.

i think the answer lies in the generalisation of counselling and therapy for all people, starting early. teach kids in schools how to be empathetic, how to be good listeners, how to be non judgemental towards themselves, how to catch their thoughts and feelings, how to love themselves. it's harder to be radicalised if you have the meta cognitive ability to recognise patterns in your own thinking.
yeah, as a society we're not trained to have empathy from the start. the lack of empathy hardens to prejudice. i've yelled for years that schools should be teaching empathy as much as like math.

for a lot of the most extreme folks, extreme groups offer a place of belonging and empathy in the absence of it.

Speaking of empathy… Someone once claimed to me that they gave their right-wing parents small doses of LSD in their coffee(?) every morning on a vacation for two weeks in some European country (Portugal?) and were able to change their worldview a few weeks later. That's the only idea I've heard other than therapy-adjacent things.
 
OP
OP
marmalade

marmalade

Member
Nov 28, 2018
567
Wasn't there a traveling group of muslim Americans who did a traveling Q&A in small town America? Was there any discussion of the aftermath of that?
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
This nonsense again.

Hello, the average white man has been fucked in this country for 500 years.

You think NO ONE before you tried to convince them that it's because oligarchy? Do you know how short sighted you sound right now?
What does this have to do with anything I said? Of course I am not the first one. We still live in a society that suffers from class struggle so keep convincing them and spread the word because not everyone is aware of how the system is harming them.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
What does this have to do with anything I said? Of course I am not the first one. We still live in a society that suffers from class struggle so keep convincing them and spread the word because not everyone is aware of how the system is harming them.

Again what do you know of how the New Deal came to be?
 

ebs

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
443
Ten pages in and we're still talking about changing bigots minds, instead of the more obvious application of this research which is swaying the center.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
So tell me again how class unity is the solution
It's not the solution to racism. I don't think there exists one clear method to cleanse the US of racism. I don't even think that should be our goal. It's systemic racism that we should focus on through policiy changes, changing the distribution of power within the country.

Class solidarity is the solution to free the poor and working class of which minorities are a part of. Through that shared struggle you can try to appeal to white people in the way the article outlined.

It's a different solution to a different problem but they are connected. In the same way that feminism is not the solution to racism but is still intersectionally connected.
 

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
Ten pages in and we're still talking about changing bigots minds, instead of the more obvious application of this research which is swaying the center.

Because even if you try this on centrists, it still has a low success rate. And even if it work, this enlightenment only lasts a couple of months.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
It's not the solution to racism. I don't think there exists one clear method to cleanse the US of racism. I don't even think that should be our goal. It's systemic racism that we should focus on through policiy changes, changing the distribution of power within the country.

Class solidarity is the solution to free the poor and working class of which minorities are a part of. Through that shared struggle you can try to appeal to white people in the way the article outlined.

It's a different solution to a different problem but they are connected. In the same way that feminism is not the solution to racism but is still intersectionally connected.

So you started on about class in this thread that became about racism why again?

Again you acknowledge that the New Deal only passed because they made it whites only.... but now what... the solution is to unite poor whites with minorities on class even though historically poor whites endorse suffering if it means minorities will suffer.

There's more indication that trying to highlight how the system hurts poor minorities will entice poor white racists to vote for the system not against it, even if you also point out it hurts them.
 
Oct 31, 2017
6,747
We've got evidence that something can be done and concrete examples of how to do it, instructions on how to put a little bit of light back into the world, but some of you would rather stay angry. I feel bad that you've gotten to this point, but man...

It comes off hypocritical that you seem content to judge marginalized people as "would rather stay angry" instead of practicing the patience, understanding and optimism you want marginalized people to allow for bigots

what's up with that?
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
Yes, I, the queer-person-of-color should listen to a MAGAT vent about how I and everyone that looks like me is causing the fall of western civilization. This is some privileged shit.
What? It's not about just listening to them. Listening to them is the WAY IN. It's the first step, opening the door to get into their head and change their minds

And it's literally proven to work

It's nothing to do with privilege
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,150
It is disgusting so many look at the last few years and their take way is "welp margalized people need to get their act together. I know tyrone was shot for walking down his street. But maybe he should have thought about listening to why the cop needed to say 'i am going to shoot you nigger'. "
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
So you started on about class in this thread that became about racism why again?

Again you acknowledge that the New Deal only passed because they made it whites only.... but now what... the solution is to unite poor whites with minorities on class even though historically poor whites endorse suffering if it means minorities will suffer.

There's more indication that trying to highlight how the system hurts poor minorities will entice poor white racists to vote for the system not against it, even if you also point out it hurts them.
You just have to get enough whites on your side to change legislation and policiy. Which is already happening. Bernie managed to completely change the way people talk about capitalism, socialism, the poor and the rich in only a few years. He brought all of that into the mainstream. And AOC further cemented that.

Also by your logic we would never be able to create policies that help minorities because white people are in power and the majority. So if they oppose workers rights, that would help them and minorities, only to damage minorities. Why would they ever enact laws or policies specifically designed to benefit black folks? Are you trying to say that progress is a lost cause? Of course not. People are able to change and they are doing so right now.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,150
You just have to get enough whites on your side to change legislation and policiy. Which is already happening. Bernie managed to completely change the way people talk about capitalism, socialism, the poor and the rich in only a few years. He brought all of that into the mainstream. And AOC further cemented that.

Also by your logic we would never be able to create policies that help minorities because white people are in power and the majority. So if they oppose workers rights, that would help them and minorities, only to damage minorities. Why would they ever enact laws or policies specifically designed to benefit black folks? Are you trying to say that progress is a lost cause? Of course not. People are able to change and they are doing so right now.
Google "Dying of whiteness", it was even linked in this thread. I am not sure you grasp the history of america and white supremacy within it.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
Google "Dying of whiteness", it was even linked in this thread. I am not sure you grasp the history of america and white supremacy within it.
Yeah I am aware of that. I mean that's one of the major criticisms people have for anyone that votes republican, especially in the case of Trump. But that doesn't go for the whole white population nor does it always have to stay that way. I mean how else would progress in a country exist. Or rather how else did the US manage to progress even if ever so slowly.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
Man, white america will do anything to talk themselves out of doing what needs to be done about racism.

www.nytimes.com

Opinion | White America’s Age-Old, Misguided Obsession With Civility (Published 2018)

Those who say that the civil rights movement prevailed because of polite dialogue misunderstand the history of protest.

You can tell there are so many people in this thread that are just taking this as validation for their discomfort in confronting white supremacy.
 

Yoshimitsu126

The Fallen
Nov 11, 2017
14,709
United States
I honestly just accept that white privilege wont go away and suck up to it in person and socially because no one can defend my position while voting for liberal policies.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,699
I mean how else would progress in a country exist. Or rather how else did the US manage to progress even if ever so slowly.
Either by dragging white people kicking and screaming into the future or by the slimmest of margins of support.

White people have largely never been on the side of civil rights for black and brown folks. It's either a fight or a middling-ass "fine, whatever..... But what about us tho?"
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
Either by dragging white people kicking and screaming into the future or by the slimmest of margins of support.

White people have largely never been on the side of civil rights for black and brown folks. It's either a fight or a middling-ass "fine, whatever..... But what about us tho?"
That's true the "white moderate" letter from MLK comes to mind. Progress didn't come easily.