New research may show the key on how to talk someone out of bigotry

Miles X

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
710
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory Commentary Around Race, Prior Severe Infraction for the Same Offense
I think this is why LGBT rights, particularly equal marriage, has made such strong progress. Do you really get anywhere antagonising whole groups of people? Really glad we don't go around saying "straight people are shit" basically ....
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,389
I think this is why LGBT rights, particularly equal marriage, has made such strong progress. Do you really get anywhere antagonising whole groups of people? Really glad we don't go around saying "straight people are shit" basically ....
No it's because white people can be LGBT.

But way to insinuate black folk are partially responsible for their own oppression brah.
 

Powdered Egg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,591
I think this is why LGBT rights, particularly equal marriage, has made such strong progress. Do you really get anywhere antagonising whole groups of people? Really glad we don't go around saying "straight people are shit" basically ....
Yeah nice try racist. It's because LGBTQ happen to also include white folks. Hypothetically speaking, if only minorities were lgbtq and it were impossible for Whites to be gay, the community would have probably been genocided in America.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
8,127
Yeah nice try racist. It's because LGBTQ happen to also include white folks. Hypothetically speaking, if only minorities were lgbtq and it were impossible for Whites to be gay, the community would have probably been genocided in America.
Speaking about LGBTQ+ in particular and not even in the USA, there's a segment of the population that's actively trying to do that.
Like I mean the amount of people maimed and assaulted in France over public display of non heterosexuality is baffingly high.
If your hypothetical were to happen, we know where the US would have tried their nukes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,968
WHy don't we ever have studies on the victims? Why does everything have to be framed around the bigoty?
I was genuinely curious about this, so I checked on Google Scholar. There are (obviously) victim focused studies within the social science (criminology focused), but they're kind of lumped together under the category 'hate crime'.

But as far as: "why don't these studies enter the media system?"
Easy answer: because white people aren't involved in the topic, so they won't care about it. :|
Just a guess on that last one though.

edit: did not see The Kree's post already having covered this.
 

Slayven

1000% Demon King
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
44,693
Remember when they made a Stonewall movie and somehow LGBTQ of color was mysteriously absent? Slayven remembers
 

skillzilla81

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,108
I think this is why LGBT rights, particularly equal marriage, has made such strong progress. Do you really get anywhere antagonising whole groups of people? Really glad we don't go around saying "straight people are shit" basically ....
Your queer friends, if you have any, don't trust you.

Also, read a fucking history book.

Also, you seem like the type of person that would throw MLK in a black person's face, so maybe think about what he did.

Some of ya'll wonder why people use the ignore feature. Jesus Christ.
 
Oct 31, 2017
4,575
I think this is why LGBT rights, particularly equal marriage, has made such strong progress. Do you really get anywhere antagonising whole groups of people? Really glad we don't go around saying "straight people are shit" basically ....
I mean, aren't you antagonizing black people with this post?


also, antagonizing whole groups works out for white people

also, have you ever listen to a gay person talk before?

....is this post some deep sarcasm that everyone is missing or something?
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,920
I think this is why LGBT rights, particularly equal marriage, has made such strong progress. Do you really get anywhere antagonising whole groups of people? Really glad we don't go around saying "straight people are shit" basically ....
Yes, you do get somewhere. You get to the white house, the Supreme Court, you get to run billion dollar social media empires.

Shitting on whole groups of people is literally how white people have been winning for the last 500 years on this continent.

Why is it all of a sudden a bad idea?
 

NHarmonic.

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,898
Perhaps listening and the showing them that , we, as lgbt people, don’t bite (unless you’re into that) and are just regular folks too, works.
That's, you know, obvious. Only in the minds of this brainless bigots LGBT folk are monsters. It shows when they learn someone they know is gay and they completely change their attitude with that person, even if before getting that info they acted normally or friendly.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
8,127
Yes, you do get somewhere. You get to the white house, the Supreme Court, you get to run billion dollar social media empires.

Shitting on whole groups of people is literally how white people have been winning for the last 500 years on this continent.

Why is it all of a sudden a bad idea?
It's a bad idea if it gets to profits more than just white cishet males,
that one is obvious from moment go.
Got anything worthwhile to add or nah?
Keep thinking that only class matters like rich minorities don't get shit thrown at them for no reason.
 

Sanka

Member
Feb 17, 2019
1,595
It's a bad idea if it gets to profits more than just white cishet males,
that one is obvious from moment go.

Keep thinking that only class matters like rich minorities don't get shit thrown at them for no reason.
How did you get to that assumption? I didn't even talk about any of that? Please don't jump to conclusions.

Class is the biggest umbrella that covers the largest group that is suffering under an unfair system. So if you want to connect and appeal to the most priviliged group, which are white men, you can do that by showing them how that system is harming you, poor folks and even themself.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,389
How did you get to that assumption? I didn't even talk about any of that? Please don't jump to conclusions.

Class is the biggest umbrella that covers the largest group that is suffering under an unfair system. So if you want to connect and appeal to the most priviliged group, which are white men, you can do that by showing them how that system is harming you, poor folks and even themself.
If black person shows a racist white person how the system harms the black community, the white racist will double down on their support of said system.
 

fleet

Member
Jan 2, 2019
505
the op is basically about general therapeutic techniques. non-judgemental listening, open ended questions, socratic questioning, validation...

these things work. they’re why therapy works. imagine going to a psychologist and hearing them say “your views and beliefs are stupid and you just need to stop thinking that way”. you would a) feel incredibly hurt and more entrenched in your beliefs than ever and b) never talk to a psychologist again.

the thing, though, is that psychologists are trained to not absorb too much of our clients’ thoughts and feelings. we have to practice self care constantly to prevent burnout. we have to balance being genuinely empathetic with having enough distance to be objective. also we literally get paid to do it.

that’s hard and it’s not something you can just ask your everyday person to do for people who espouse extremely toxic views. i wouldn’t expect it from anybody. i wouldn’t ask a minority to sit down for a cup of tea with someone who believes in eugenics. it’s not fair and it wouldn’t be effective in any way. that’s not to say that i don’t think we could all be a little more empathetic and loving towards each other, but it shouldn’t be the victim’s responsibility to take that burden on themselves.

i think the answer lies in the generalisation of counselling and therapy for all people, starting early. teach kids in schools how to be empathetic, how to be good listeners, how to be non judgemental towards themselves, how to catch their thoughts and feelings, how to love themselves. it’s harder to be radicalised if you have the meta cognitive ability to recognise patterns in your own thinking.
 
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Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
7,261
Wealth distribution in the United States was more equitable during the time where the government was assassinating black civil rights leaders and white people were trying to prevent voting rights and integration. When black people start doing financially well we get culturally undermimed (watermelon sharecropping), run out of town (South Carolina) or just outright fire-bombed (Black Wall Street).

Class solidarity is not going to solve racism. White people are going to take the money and social perks and still call me a nigger.
 
Nov 1, 2017
812
So anyone want to take a stab at how I was supposed to win over the interspecies dudes I talked about earlier or nah?

I feel like we were focused on the same thing economically at the time. Their focus, making money and mine begrudgingly making them money so I could make money and take care of my family.
 

Quantza

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
641
I thought this was obvious.
Not having discussions (at all) leads to fear and violence.
WHy don't we ever have studies on the victims? Why does everything have to be framed around the bigoty?
This is very important too. But ideally, you'd start with a topic that you didn't think was polarizing in the first place.
If black person shows a racist white person how the system harms the black community, the white racist will double down on their support of said system.
How is this factual? Stop treating people like machines...

The point is to have laws against discrimination with consequences, and then start the conversation.
If the former is 'impossible', you start the conversation first and make it possible with public support.
Not saying it is easy though...
 

Sanka

Member
Feb 17, 2019
1,595
If black person shows a racist white person how the system harms the black community, the white racist will double down on their support of said system.
As far as I know that is exactly why white americans are so opposed to free healthcare, free colleges and other benefits. Because black people and other minorities who have been neglected by the system since the inception of this country, will benefit the most from it.

It's just pure hatred. But I don't think it's impossible to get some of those people to understand the plight black people have suffered from and change their ways with the approach mentioned in the article.
 

Urban Scholar

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,897
Miami, FL
How is this factual? Stop treating people like machines...

The point is to have laws against discrimination with consequences, and then start the conversation.
If the former is 'impossible', you start the conversation first and make it possible with public support.
Not saying it is easy though...
So we're going to act like the profuse racist systems all across America's infrastructure are still kicking about Civil Rights because...white society by large is sympathetic?
 
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skillzilla81

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,108
I thought this was obvious.
Not having discussions (at all) leads to fear and violence.

This is very important too. But ideally, you'd start with a topic that you didn't think was polarizing in the first place.

How is this factual? Stop treating people like machines...

The point is to have laws against discrimination with consequences, and then start the conversation.
If the former is 'impossible', you start the conversation first and make it possible with public support.
Not saying it is easy though...

You'd have to ignore how many white people have been voting for decades to think that isn't factual. You'd have to ignore large swaths of history to think this isn't true.
 

faceless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,145
How is this factual? Stop treating people like machines...

The point is to have laws against discrimination with consequences, and then start the conversation.
If the former is 'impossible', you start the conversation first and make it possible with public support.
Not saying it is easy though...
decades of 'working americans" voting against their own self interest and countless media quotes doubling down on it aren't factual?
 

skillzilla81

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,108
decades of 'working americans" voting against their own self interest and countless media quotes doubling down on it aren't factual?
Imagine asking how is this factual when Trump is president.

Imagine asking how is this factual when racists have said fuck Obamacare, but that affordable healthcare act is okay with me.
 

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,475
Considering the number of times I've faced violence or have been threatened violence from bigoted people, fuck them. I'll let White people do the best they can with those individuals. Maybe a minority or two just to cover their bases.
 
Jun 10, 2018
2,255
I thought this was obvious.
Not having discussions (at all) leads to fear and violence.

This is very important too. But ideally, you'd start with a topic that you didn't think was polarizing in the first place.

How is this factual?
Stop treating people like machines...

The point is to have laws against discrimination with consequences, and then start the conversation.
If the former is 'impossible', you start the conversation first and make it possible with public support.
Not saying it is easy though...
You would virtually have to ignore history starting at chattel slavery til now to post ignorance like this.
 

Quantza

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
641
Everyone complaining at my post should realise that people are not as simple as you make them out to be, and categorising them this way will make them hate you and ignore your plight.

The fact is that even people that are not bigoted have the same effect on your life due to not wanting to be rid of bigotry. Ask yourselves why is that happening? Just like why public healthcare is not a thing in the U.S., shootings are a regular occurrence, unionisation is not easy in certain disciplines etc.

Most people aren't fighting for things at a societal level in the U.S. - it's just individualism. If you're poor, you likely stay poor. Maybe it's due to discrimination now, but I think it's just that nobody dealt with the discrimination from the past. These things you're saying have been less of a factor in the UK.

I really think your political systems are just so built up to avoid change.
 

Urban Scholar

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,897
Miami, FL
Got it, you had no real answer for the replies aimed at you.

Next time people come at you about racism, you might want to have something more concrete as a defense before you get buried under facts & proof.
 
Nov 1, 2017
812
You would virtually have to ignore history starting at chattel slavery til now to post ignorance like this.
What's history to 3 months of reduced bigotry?/s

I still think it's wild the number of people acting like we're wrong to say this isn't the solution to anti-Black American racism of all things when again these studies were about homophobia, transphobia and sentiments against undocumented immigrants. Or that it showed that a propaganda ad was effective 6 weeks after the initial contact for one of the experiments. They improved again but if one ad can make that kind of impact, what happens when it's a constant bombardment of it from TV, radio, newspapers, media and peers? Are canvassers going to have to spend a weekend with bigots on occasion to keep their views from regressing?
 

skillzilla81

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,108
Everyone complaining at my post should realise that people are not as simple as you make them out to be, and categorising them this way will make them hate you and ignore your plight.

The fact is that even people that are not bigoted have the same effect on your life due to not wanting to be rid of bigotry. Ask yourselves why is that happening? Just like why public healthcare is not a thing in the U.S., shootings are a regular occurrence, unionisation is not easy in certain disciplines etc.

Most people aren't fighting for things at a societal level in the U.S. - it's just individualism. If you're poor, you likely stay poor. Maybe it's due to discrimination now, but I think it's just that nobody dealt with the discrimination from the past. These things you're saying have been less of a factor in the UK.

I really think your political systems are just so built up to avoid change.
They already hate me.
 

Slayven

1000% Demon King
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
44,693
This is very important too. But ideally, you'd start with a topic that you didn't think was polarizing in the first place.
But thats the thing, these people find margalized people polarizing, doubly so their pain. How what are you talking to the bigot about if not the pain of the marginalized person?
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,128
Today of all days, don’t want to use the UK as a shining beacon of tolerance and not cutting off your nose to spite your face.
 
Jun 10, 2018
2,255
Everyone complaining at my post should realise that people are not as simple as you make them out to be, and categorising them this way will make them hate you and ignore your plight.

The fact is that even people that are not bigoted have the same effect on your life due to not wanting to be rid of bigotry. Ask yourselves why is that happening? Just like why public healthcare is not a thing in the U.S., shootings are a regular occurrence, unionisation is not easy in certain disciplines etc.

Most people aren't fighting for things at a societal level in the U.S. - it's just individualism. If you're poor, you likely stay poor. Maybe it's due to discrimination now, but I think it's just that nobody dealt with the discrimination from the past. These things you're saying have been less of a factor in the UK.

I really think your political systems are just so built up to avoid change.
Your confusion is that you have a mistaken belief the oppressed by and large are in a constant flux of wanting to herald proverbial white saviors for their cause. When in all actuality we, at worst, just want to be left alone and achieve prosperity without racially targeted or bigoted interference.

The bigots owe us, not the other way around. They should (and at least by me) are only granted the time of day when they've earned it.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
7,823
Everyone complaining at my post should realise that people are not as simple as you make them out to be, and categorising them this way will make them hate you and ignore your plight.

The fact is that even people that are not bigoted have the same effect on your life due to not wanting to be rid of bigotry. Ask yourselves why is that happening? Just like why public healthcare is not a thing in the U.S., shootings are a regular occurrence, unionisation is not easy in certain disciplines etc.

Most people aren't fighting for things at a societal level in the U.S. - it's just individualism. If you're poor, you likely stay poor. Maybe it's due to discrimination now, but I think it's just that nobody dealt with the discrimination from the past. These things you're saying have been less of a factor in the UK.

I really think your political systems are just so built up to avoid change.
Nah, you're just woefully ignorant to reality of racial history in the US.

There are swaths of moments where White Americans have wholly rebuked programs that would help themselves because Black People would benefit also.

Republicans gut social welfare and funds whenever they can and White Americans make up the majority of welfare recipients... Simply based on a stereotype lie of Black Welfare moochers.

So yeah, you gotta go back to the drawing board
 

Pet

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,449
SoCal
Everyone is worth saving. If a person is genuinely able to change, feel real remorse for their actions and make positive changes, why wouldn't we want that? That's a better outcome than them remaining a bigot, for everyone. Whether or not a person can change is debatable and ultimately comes down to the person (I'd argue that most people are, even if the path isn't an easy or clear one) but everyone is worth saving if you're willing to dedicate the time and effort to trying to save them.
Spoiler alert: he's not.

This might square with a reality where people are fully in control of their development throughout their lives. However, we know for a fact that human beings are profoundly shaped by deterministic factors.

Factors like upbringing, where we're conditioned in our formative years by parents, peers, authority figures, and personal experiences. If you're beaten a lot as a kid, or you lose a parent when you're young, or you're repeatedly humiliated when you express joy, that changes the course of your development -- how you feel, how you think. You might find yourself overwhelmed by rage and disgust toward any form of authority. You might be subconsciously motivated by a deep seated fear of change or loss. You might hate yourself.

Other determining factors spring from our genes. What about mental predispositions that are totally out of our hands, like being prone to anger, anxiety, and depression? How about being born with a physical handicap? Different people handle adversity in different ways. It's not exactly a stretch to see how someone's life could be defined by pain, shame, or any kind of social obstacle.

These aren't excuses for being a bad person; we should all strive for self-improvement. Rather, they're factors outside our control that have a demonstrable influence on thought and behavior.

We don't all naturally drift toward decency. We're not all playing with the same hand, with the privilege of good parenting, strong and progressive social ties, an even emotional keel, access to therapy, an adequate education, or the resilience to break our programming.

To ignore all this in favor of a more satisfying narrative of radical personal responsibility is, well, less than reasonable. Assigning blame in stark black and white terms is not reflective of the empathy and understanding we would hope to see throughout society.
It's not so much a theory of radical personal responsibility as it is a question of intelligence. That is, if you're too dumb to get it and you're been too deeply influenced/shaped by your upbringing/family, then it's not worth reaching out and better to let you die (of opiates, apparently). At least, that's how I'm understanding his views. A tad bit privileged, perhaps :p.

I mean I don't even know I feel about that because I'm actually someone who was raised deeply Christian/bigoted and only gradually moved away. But, I still held onto (and still have) lots of bigoted thoughts, some that I held onto way past college. I don't think it was a question of intelligence, but rather luck and lots of circumstances that led me down the more progressive path. I think I could have easily became a far-right mouthpiece.

I can't attribute my change to personal responsibility, but it's impossible to prove otherwise as it's not like I can run a trial on how I turned out with multiple mes and slightlyyy different circumstances.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,308
It's interesting how this discussion went from a controlled study about reducing transphobia to the entire history of racism in the US. I'm just gonna leave this quote here from the paper itself. Emphasis mine.
we do not wish to overstate the substantive size of the effects we estimated.On the one hand, some may see these effects as relatively sizable given the null effects of manyother door-to-door persuasion programs (Kalla and Broockman 2018) and the difficulty of chang-ing attitudes, at least on immigration, in many survey-based experiment. On the other hand, many social psychologists would traditionally consider effect sizes of the sizes we observed small. Moreover, given the size of the effects we observe, a campaign implementing this approach should expect that a very large number of such conversations would be needed to produce detectable changes in aggregate public opinion or changes in electoral out-comes. At the same time, a campaign looking for strategies to change aggregate public opinion may have no choice but to pursue strategies with small effects; few if any other campaign tactic shave been rigorously shown to have lasting meaningful effects in the field on public opinion.
Our results also suggest a possible tension between strategies for reducing exclusionary attitudes at the individual level and strategies for reducing their behavioral consequences at a societal level. Previous field experiments find that promulgating norms that discourage exclusionary behaviors—i.e., signaling that exclusionary behaviors will be judged negatively by others can effectively reduce the consequences of intergroup prejudice, even though this does not reduce ex-clusionary attitudes themselves (Paluck 2009). However, our work joins others in suggesting that signaling individuals will not be judged negatively for expressing exclusionary attitudes may facilitate their openness to changing these attitudes (Itzchakov, Kluger and Castro 2017). Efforts to promote a culture where individuals expect social opprobrium for engaging in exclusionary behavior may therefore need to balance the value of creating conditions in which individuals do not feel threatened by discussing their attitudes and experiences with those who wish to persuade them.

They explicitly say we should keep calling out bigots because it has got practical outcomes for minorities even though it doesn't change minds.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,425
We are all oppressed by the rich upper class. To fight and resist them we need to convert as many workers to our side as possible even those with bigoted views. Anyone striving for progress should do their part.

The appeal to our common humanity is the strongest force there is.
Always sad watching supposed leftists abandon minorities in the name of “class solidarity”.
 

DarthSpider

The Fallen
Nov 15, 2017
819
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing Minority Perspectives on Racial Issues in a Sensitive Thread
We've got evidence that something can be done and concrete examples of how to do it, instructions on how to put a little bit of light back into the world, but some of you would rather stay angry. I feel bad that you've gotten to this point, but man...
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,464
the op is basically about general therapeutic techniques. non-judgemental listening, open ended questions, socratic questioning, validation...

these things work. they’re why therapy works. imagine going to a psychologist and hearing them say “your views and beliefs are stupid and you just need to stop thinking that way”. you would a) feel incredibly hurt and more entrenched in your beliefs than ever and b) never talk to a psychologist again.

the thing, though, is that psychologists are trained to not absorb too much of our clients’ thoughts and feelings. we have to practice self care constantly to prevent burnout. we have to balance being genuinely empathetic with having enough distance to be objective. also we literally get paid to do it.

that’s hard and it’s not something you can just ask your everyday person to do for people who espouse extremely toxic views. i wouldn’t expect it from anybody. i wouldn’t ask a minority to sit down for a cup of tea with someone who believes in eugenics. it’s not fair and it wouldn’t be effective in any way. that’s not to say that i don’t think we could all be a little more empathetic and loving towards each other, but it shouldn’t be the victim’s responsibility to take that burden on themselves.

i think the answer lies in the generalisation of counselling and therapy for all people, starting early. teach kids in schools how to be empathetic, how to be good listeners, how to be non judgemental towards themselves, how to catch their thoughts and feelings, how to love themselves. it’s harder to be radicalised if you have the meta cognitive ability to recognise patterns in your own thinking.
I'm not a therapist but this is kinda what I was gonna say -- you can't expect that level of patience out of everyone.

But even the subject of this thread doesn't really cover racist systems, only individual racist people.