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turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
Phoenix, AZ
Americans are weird when it comes to cars. They're obsessed with huge sedans, trucks and SUVs, and I have absolutely no idea why. In Europe, it's family hatchbacks and smaller crossover SUVs that rule the roost.

Yeah, and being in America it sucks when you don't want what the majority wants. I already have a lack of selection due to companies not selling manual transmissions here, but also many of the smaller cars are never sold here in the first place. At some point I'm probably going to import a kei car from Japan just because I like small cars.
 

Deleted member 26398

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
706
Seems like Japanese car makers are going to get smoked. Nothing yet from Toyota or Honda. Nissan's effort also don't seem to have long term potential. Nissan needs to be more ambitious and think more long term.
 

Jill Sandwich

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,949
Looking forward to governments inventing another tax for driving electric vehicles, making them just as expensive to run as dino-juice cars.
 

grmlin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,293
Germany
I hope the next time I have to buy a car for my family, EVs are affordable and make sense economically for a normal guy like me.

Amazing to see how the industry got pushed by Tesla though.
 

danowat

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,783
Unless the prices of EV's come down in the next couple of years, my next car will be another hybrid.
 

impingu1984

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,416
UK
The interesting thing with "Tesla vs the establishment" comes down to this. Is it easier / better / more efficient to start your production (of electric cars) from the ground up ie new factory, new processes, new supply chain etc ie the Telsa Model. Or is "easier / better / more efficient / or even possible to retool your existing production, processes, supply chain etc from what it currently is to electric cars.

Tesla have been the pretty much the only option in the premium car section that offers fully electric options that will do a reasonable range, I'm excited that it's changing and it'll be interesting to see what happens to Tesla when they have some real competition.

But here in the UK the biggest market will be the Model 3 Market - If BMW or Audi can offer a fully electric 3 series / A4 for the price of a the say 320d / A4 2.0 TDI (150PS / 185PS) a lot of leases / companies etc would jump on it.

Equally if someone can offer a Nissan Leaf style hatchback that costs £15k and not £30k, and is actually styled like a car people want to buy and not a granny car, then a lot of private buyers will jump as well.
 

raYne_07

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,205
Still watching the Mission E/Taycan like a hawk. It'll be the first EV I buy all things considered.
Will wait for the Jaguar electric sedan.
This would be the only thing that would sway me from it. Based on price/range obviously, but I love current Jaguar designs. The Porsche will be the better performer, but I'll have to decide if I need that performance down the road.

Literally, the only way EVs will be viable purchases in the US is when the pricing becomes in line with traditional gas vehicles and they produce ranges of EV SUVs. It's pretty obvious.
 

Orbis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,339
UK
The Hyundai Kona EV can do a real world 250-300 miles and it's £30k, so that's ticked all the boxes for me. I got a new car last year though so it will be some time before I think about another.
 

Argyle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,054
Been seriously considering buying an electric car in the near future, but I have a bunch of questions about buying one that make me wish we had an OT or other resource for that sort of thing. It's hard to get answers to the questions I have on google.

I agree we should have one, I'd be happy to contribute to one...

It's apparent that Audi still has some catching up to do with their efficiency. While it is a little unfair to compare a SUV to a sedan or an even smaller car like the Bolt, the Model X gets almost the same range of the e-tron quattro with a much smaller 75 kWh battery (237 miles) and at the top of the spectrum you get 47 more miles from a battery that's slightly bigger (100 kWh vs 95 kWh).

I think the Jaguar I-Pace has a similar problem, it's approximately the size of the Tesla Model 3 but consumes more energy than a gigantic Tesla Model X. At least it has over 200 miles of range so it'll be viable for most people but cost of ownership is going to be more than a Model X (which is already not exactly a very efficient EV...I think the power consumption is nearly 50% higher when comparing it to a really efficient EV like a Hyundai Ioniq)....and not only that, the low efficiency means charge times will suffer (since you have to put more energy in to travel the same distance).

... and soon the world will be crying short of essential resources getting diminished for batteries...

Electric cars nice in theory to cut carbon emitions but really still need more focus on the hydrogen cell and technology around that which has gone super quiet because there is an easier option right now...

Hydrogen doesn't seem viable to me, this video does a pretty good job explaining why:



Basically the cheapest way to produce hydrogen is to process natural gas, which consumes a lot of energy and produces greenhouse gases. You can create hydrogen from water cleanly via electrolysis but that consumes even more energy. Then you have to transfer the hydrogen around and store and pressurize it (which requires energy), as cars need the hydrogen to be at 700 bar in order to hold enough hydrogen to have a viable range...and then the conversion of the hydrogen in the fuel cell to generate electricity is itself also a fairly inefficient process.

If you wanted the cleanest possible outcome, you'd start with renewable electricity and you'd lose a large chunk of that energy converting it into hydrogen and back vs. just charging a battery.

I think hydrogen fuel cells could still find a niche, that video suggests it could find a role in aviation (where the added weight of a battery would be more of a problem) and I think there might be a niche for it for trucking, but they are currently not a very good option for consumer vehicles. In fact, right now, the main supplier of hydrogen to the Los Angeles area is having problems and so now it has been 2-3 weeks with spotty hydrogen availability. I bet all those people who leased Mirais and Clarities for the free hydrogen are not too happy about this.

The leaf is a low volume seller, so I don't think Nissan has it in them to fully commit.

If the Leaf is a low volume seller, then the only high volume EV is the Tesla Model 3. Nissan sells around 7000 Leafs a month according to this: https://pushevs.com/2018/06/10/nissan-leaf-worldwide-sales-in-may/

By comparison Chevy Bolt and Jaguar I-Pace production are/are expected to be 20-30K per year.

Edit: Hyundai Kona EV production expected to be 18,600/year and 21,000/year for the Kia Niro EV.
 
Last edited:

Dingens

Circumventing ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,018
[...] It's silly that cars nowadays still come with big fat plastic keyfobs instead of just using mobile app + some flat RFID card that fits in your wallet. Like it seems obvious to go that route and it's silly that the Model 3 is the first car to do it.

Your trust in software seems kinda naive and short-sighted. There's like a ton of problems that come with it. First of all, not everyone has or wants to use an app, or even has the means to do so, second of all, why would you entrust your car to an app in the first place?
Seeing how people handle their data and how easy it could be to manipulate/hack an app... especially in Germany where the CCC is a thing, that's just an awful idea. Not to mention privacy concerns. Who's to guaranty that the manufacturer isn't tracking you and whatever you do with your car through the app? We've had more than enough big data issues over privacy concerns lately, not need to add another layer.


I think Tesla's long run goal was to license/sell access to their battery infrastructure. But that's not happening. [...]

Yeah, that was also my guess as well. Seems like a very "Silicon Valley thing" to do.


Without a high speed charging network designed specifically to allow people to drive anywhere, electric cars in the US are going to lag way behind Tesla for years. Factor in that routing through the chargers with charge time estimates is baked into Teslas and one realizes that other car makers just have an incredible amount of catching up to do (frankly, these car makers are idiots for not piggy-backing on the Supercharger network). [...]

Didn't find charging inconvenient at all on my road trip. Depending on how you travel (and your purpose) it might add 10-25% more time which is fine considering it costs nothing and doesn't pollute. I've had the vehicle for 7 months or so and taken numerous trips outside of a 200 mile range (with no charge options on the back end - where we stayed). That would be almost inconceivable at the moment for a non-Tesla. As for claims that a viable competitor is coming on that front (and by that I mean the fast charge has to be there and the routing/time estimations must be baked into the cars software) I have zero confidence in the short team. Other manufacturers are fools for not jumping in to an open offer. [...]

Yeah, those car manufacturers are truly idiots for not flocking to a possible monopoly. What are they thinking?


My plan is to get a Model 3 for now. Then in a few years go up to something newer and better.

those "few years" better be 10+, otherwise you aren't doing anyone any favours... well, except for the industry


... and soon the world will be crying short of essential resources getting diminished for batteries... [...]

shhh, don't tell them. EVs are obviously made from air and happiness.


Where are the 80s concept interiors. Where are they.

DiQlZ0AVAAAOAJh.jpg

DiQlZ0AU8AA2TQy.jpg

DiQlZ0KUEAI7rNX.jpg

DiQlZ0BUcAEI3QI.jpg

I have decided to never buy a car again in my life... but damn, I'd be seriously considering one of these. Except for the last one, that's too 70s for me (and the first one may look shit during the day)


I'm about to get rid of my VW Jetta TDI (sorry, environment), and was looking into maybe a used Volt or Clarity from the last few years. Is there a good site with a simple way to compare electric rates to current gas prices? I'd really like to be able to do an EV at this point, even if it is a hybrid for now.

Shouldn't you rather apologize to society instead? Diesel emit significantly lower greenhouse gases and are better for the environment, kinda. The NOx and particulate matter are the issues, which are both bad for humans/living things. Solutions exist though. Why nobody bothers to implement them is beyond me.
 

Argyle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,054
I'm about to get rid of my VW Jetta TDI (sorry, environment), and was looking into maybe a used Volt or Clarity from the last few years. Is there a good site with a simple way to compare electric rates to current gas prices? I'd really like to be able to do an EV at this point, even if it is a hybrid for now.

Calculate cost per mile yourself, here's a good explanation on how: https://www.corporatemonkeycpa.com/2017/12/09/how-to-calculate-your-ev-cost-per-mile/
 

Deleted member 10612

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,774
All this is going to be in vain if there is no break through in Battery tech. Cobalt is already getting short of supply and that's without the big guys, GM, Ford, VW, Fiat etc starting production of EV cars.
 

grmlin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,293
Germany
All this is going to be in vain if there is no break through in Battery tech. Cobalt is already getting short of supply and that's without the big guys, GM, Ford, VW, Fiat etc starting production of EV cars.

I still wait for an explanation on how to charge all these cars if the world goes EV only. There must be something else than batteries to power them, or a faster way to charge them (as in really fast, like 5 minutes).

I think the whole idea of every individual owning a car will die out at some point.
 

SuperRaddy

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
882
Hydrogen doesn't seem viable to me, this video does a pretty good job explaining why:



Basically the cheapest way to produce hydrogen is to process natural gas, which consumes a lot of energy and produces greenhouse gases. You can create hydrogen from water cleanly via electrolysis but that consumes even more energy. Then you have to transfer the hydrogen around and store and pressurize it (which requires energy), as cars need the hydrogen to be at 700 bar in order to hold enough hydrogen to have a viable range...and then the conversion of the hydrogen in the fuel cell to generate electricity is itself also a fairly inefficient process.

If you wanted the cleanest possible outcome, you'd start with renewable electricity and you'd lose a large chunk of that energy converting it into hydrogen and back vs. just charging a battery.

I think hydrogen fuel cells could still find a niche, that video suggests it could find a role in aviation (where the added weight of a battery would be more of a problem) and I think there might be a niche for it for trucking, but they are currently not a very good option for consumer vehicles. In fact, right now, the main supplier of hydrogen to the Los Angeles area is having problems and so now it has been 2-3 weeks with spotty hydrogen availability. I bet all those people who leased Mirais and Clarities for the free hydrogen are not too happy about this.


Or has research into it been stifled by the fact there is now a easier and cheaper short term alternative in battery powered cars. Much like how the petrol engine remained unchanged for so long due to greedy corporations and the oil business it just looks like were seeing a similar pattern emerging here with EV cars. No one can argue that they are far more environmentally friendly than petrol/diesel engines, but what about all the natural resources were are consuming to produce them ? What about all the energy consumed there ?

I think the point im trying to get across is that hydrogen may not be viable yet and now the onus is on EV vehicles. For how long can we continue this cycle ? It just appears that you hear nothing about the research around it these days. 20-30yrs ago and if you asked someone about EV cars they would probably say you're crazy too (though they were around in very niche things like milk floats and such)
 

sprinkles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
517
I am in the market for a small car (thinking Fiesta or Polo) for my inner city commute. It is sad that even the cheapest electric alternatives are double the price I would have to pay for a new hatchback (around 15k €).
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,888
All this is going to be in vain if there is no break through in Battery tech. Cobalt is already getting short of supply and that's without the big guys, GM, Ford, VW, Fiat etc starting production of EV cars.

Newer batteries use less and less cobalt and I don't think it'll even be necessary for newer batteries like solid state.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,238
Toronto
Ehm, Tesla didn't have a patent on "electric vehicles". Carmakers have made electric vehicles for decades before Tesla was even founded.
He opened up Tesla's patent for specific charging and battery technologies they hold, but IIRC no other OEM uses them.
No company uses them outright, nor should they have. But you would be fooling yourself if you didn't think that the engineers at those companies didn't spend weeks or months going over every small detail in those patents in an attempt to both get a one up on their competition and use it a base to improve upon.
 

philipnorth

Member
Oct 31, 2017
551
I honestly cant wait. We would be in the market for a new car in the next 2 years or so, but the way things are looking now in EI, they Will still be too expensive. Which sucks, because I wont be getting one then.

VW needs to step it up. We need something like the Polo or from the others the fabia and Audi A1 to become Cheap electric Cars with decent mileage.

Not a 50k A4.
 

Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,980
I thought compact electrics would be more popular than they have been. Urban dwellers wanting a small, convenient city hopper where range wouldn't be a big factor. I still think they could be the biggest market, at least comparable to gas compacts and semi-compacts, but they obviously need to drop the price to compete. It's nice to have luxury and sporty electric options, but the first to mass produce a cheap electric compact, emphasis on cheap, is going to have a winner.
 

StrayDog

Avenger
Jul 14, 2018
2,617
Tesla/Musk fans are trying to rewrite history giving it to much credit. Nissan Leaf had much impact imho.
 

h1nch

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,908
Your trust in software seems kinda naive and short-sighted. There's like a ton of problems that come with it. First of all, not everyone has or wants to use an app, or even has the means to do so, second of all, why would you entrust your car to an app in the first place?
Seeing how people handle their data and how easy it could be to manipulate/hack an app... especially in Germany where the CCC is a thing, that's just an awful idea. Not to mention privacy concerns. Who's to guaranty that the manufacturer isn't tracking you and whatever you do with your car through the app? We've had more than enough big data issues over privacy concerns lately, not need to add another layer.

Damn you're right! We should go back to metal keys and non-connected cars. Rip that GPS out of my car too while you're at it. Don't want the man tracking my movements.
 

Minarik

Member
Nov 9, 2017
269
While it's exciting that more companies are entering the market, I can't get excited until a practical electric car is available. Give me a Toyota Camry with batteries, something the average person can afford.

The Chevy Bolt is adorable, but I test drove one and hated it. It feel like an "electric car" rather than a normal car running on electricity. Cheap and bare interior, horrible looks and styling.

I just want an average car with batteries instead of gas, wtf is taking car companies so long?
 

Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,980
While it's exciting that more companies are entering the market, I can't get excited until a practical electric car is available. Give me a Toyota Camry with batteries, something the average person can afford.
I just want an average car with batteries instead of gas, wtf is taking car companies so long?
Trying to create their own market. Simply having a same price choice between a Camry gas and a Camry electric should be the target. Perhaps that will be the end game, but right now there's more money to be made by making electrics their own genre market.
 

BAN PUNCHER

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,945
Makes sense that the European brands would jump on board. Its easier to sell a luxury electric car as they're already expensive, and more people are getting on board with owning an electric car in general.

Though I'm more looking forward to when I can buy components cheaper, like batteries and motors, so I can cheaply turn an older car into an electric car.
Modifying old cars with the new tech is far more interesting to me personally than the boring looking new cars. Also keen to see what the aftermarket manufacturer's develop.
 

Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,980
Kit cars.
Have a standardized electric drive-train with multiple body style options.
 

Buran

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
365
... and soon the world will be crying short of essential resources getting diminished for batteries...

Electric cars nice in theory to cut carbon emitions but really still need more focus on the hydrogen cell and technology around that which has gone super quiet because there is an easier option right now...


Hydrogen cars makes no sense:

0HK3hxQ.jpg


Albeit the EV schedule is unfairly simplified in taht comparison, the essentials remains the same: the hydrogen scheme lacks proficiency and ads superfluous complexity. The same happens with hybrids. Just make the things simple.
 

grmlin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,293
Germany
- How long does it take to fully recharge a 500km battery EV?
- How long does it take to refill a hydrogen powered EV?

Batteries are not the answer yet, at least not for all situations.


And no, it doesn't look like hydrogen is the answer either :/
 

Buran

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
365
- How long does it take to fully recharge a 500km battery EV?
- How long does it take to refill a hydrogen powered EV?

Batteries are not the answer yet, at least not for all situations.


And no, it doesn't look like hydrogen is the answer either :/

That depends of the recharger technology:

* You can charge the 80% of a Tesla in a Supercharger in ~40 minutes, which would provide you 400+ Km in the models with larger batteries.
* You will be able to charge the cars up to 300 Km in 15 minutes in the Ionity network of superchargers, which will use charging ports up to 350 kW. This probably will be the main competition with the Tesla Superchargers 8specially in Europe).
* In adition to the Ionity superchargers, Porsche will deploy its own 800 kW ports, capable to deliver ~500 Km range in a 15 minutes charge (most of them probably deployed at their own dealership points).
* Or you can just use adapters for home as the ones from the I-Pace and fully fill the batteries in a night (the I-Pace is a bit slow, takes ~12 hours).

Anyway is a very different pattern of consum: instead of going to a fuel station each time you need the energy most of the time most of the non-professional users will charge their cars at home, as they do with their phones, with fast supercharging saved for long road trips and so.
 

grmlin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,293
Germany
Yeah, I know about super charges and stuff, and I still don't understand how they want to replace gas stations with that. You'll need zillions of these things if we all drive around in battery EVs. Is this even possible?

And yes, I think recharging a car every 300km for 15 minutes is a terrible experience. And using your car for long trips is very popular in Europe, one of the main reasons I own one.

But even for the daily drivers in a city like Berlin where I live, where would all these cars be charged? Will they place charging stations in all streets every 10m so they can charge overnight? I really don't see this happening.
 

Deleted member 10612

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,774
Newer batteries use less and less cobalt and I don't think it'll even be necessary for newer batteries like solid state.
Well even less is still using it.
Solid state may be a decade away and who knows what materials will be used there. It's just that the electrolyte is not liquid anymore but solid.

I can't recall a technological shift ever being this dependent on a breakthrough. China alone wants to sell 30mill EVs by 2030 a year. Would that be like 50mill of 500kg big batteries per year (and growing). At least oil was easy to get for the last 50years.
If there is still going to be a dependency on rare earth materials - good night.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,888
Anyway is a very different pattern of consum: instead of going to a fuel station each time you need the energy most of the time most of the non-professional users will charge their cars at home, as they do with their phones, with fast supercharging saved for long road trips and so.

This is something I have to explain to people who ask about EVs.

They're closer to your cell phone than an ICE car.

Public chargers are for:

- road trips beyond the car's range
- you don't have the means to charge at home
- you messed up and forgot to charge overnight.
- opportunity charging, you're at a mall and they have EV charging so you use it because it's there. It's free in a lot of cases.
 

BrokenBox

Member
Oct 26, 2017
174
Shouldn't you rather apologize to society instead? Diesel emit significantly lower greenhouse gases and are better for the environment, kinda. The NOx and particulate matter are the issues, which are both bad for humans/living things. Solutions exist though. Why nobody bothers to implement them is beyond me.

whynotboth_sadversion.gif


Thanks. I actually just found this linked through my electric company, too: https://www.energy.gov/maps/egallon
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,199
This is more automation than electric but once deaths by car numbers drop can we have flat fronted cars again

ggazcXA.jpg

sf2w8z6.jpg
 

Ryno23

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
1,097
Very interesting from the Q2 earnings report Tesla released the top 5 trade ins towards Model 3:
  • Toyota Prius
  • BMW 3-Series
  • Honda Accord
  • Honda Civic
  • Nissan Leaf
People are trading up for Model 3, which is great news

Also US all electric sales for July
  1. Tesla Model 3* 14,250
  2. Tesla Model S* 1200
  3. Tesla Model X* 1325
  4. Chevrolet Bolt 1175
  5. Nissan LEAF 1149
  6. BMW I3 464
https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

And there's this, EVs are going to take massive market share from gas cars, people seem to think that they're only competing with each other and it's zero sum game:


20180730_Tesla_Sales.jpg
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
20,229
Very interesting from the Q2 earnings report Tesla released the top 5 trade ins towards Model 3:

Also US all electric sales for July
  1. Tesla Model 3* 14,250
  2. Tesla Model S* 1200
  3. Tesla Model X* 1325
  4. Chevrolet Bolt 1175
  5. Nissan LEAF 1149
  6. BMW I3 464
https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

Little detail you left out on those *:
Above – 2018 Monthly Sales Chart For The Major Plug-In Automakers – *Estimated Sales Numbers – Reconciled on Monthly or Quarterly Totals

This is more automation than electric but once deaths by car numbers drop can we have flat fronted cars again

ggazcXA.jpg

sf2w8z6.jpg

You'r speaking my language. I absolutely LOVE the late 80s to early 90s German box look of BMW & Audi.