[New York Times]: In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
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Article is slanted and you can see by the wording it uses but many parts still trouble me.
I have no issue with measures to help break the cycle of poverty but I do when they are sprinkled with indoctrination attempts and clear discrimination. Labeling problematic areas as "ghetto" is frankly a terrible choice. Forcing kids to learn about specific religion at the age of 1 is also disturbing. Doubling the sentence or punishment for crimes occurring in said areas is straight up discrimination. Giving children a free pre-school education is a good idea though.
I have no issue with measures to help break the cycle of poverty but I do when they are sprinkled with indoctrination attempts and clear discrimination. Labeling problematic areas as "ghetto" is frankly a terrible choice. Forcing kids to learn about specific religion at the age of 1 is also disturbing. Doubling the sentence or punishment for crimes occurring in said areas is straight up discrimination. Giving children a free pre-school education is a good idea though.
Most of the criteria are inherently classist in addition to being racist, things like over 40% unemployment and 50% undereducated are failures of the government and society at large rather than purely failures of the individual, but the individuals are the ones being punished for it. Hence why the entire policy is oppressive and destructive.
So, preschool is mandatory at age 1 and among the courses there is religion education...
1 is far too early and is revolting me, 3 is the minimum to me for preschool, and there shouldn't be mention of low income as a rule to engage.
As for religion education, there is a state religion, so that's normal, heck i was forced to religious education when i was in the UK in the early 90s.
25 hours of preschool seems standard to me though but again 1 year old... no ... no ... no ... no.
1 is far too early and is revolting me, 3 is the minimum to me for preschool, and there shouldn't be mention of low income as a rule to engage.
As for religion education, there is a state religion, so that's normal, heck i was forced to religious education when i was in the UK in the early 90s.
25 hours of preschool seems standard to me though but again 1 year old... no ... no ... no ... no.
Things are already going to shit over here, with the fascists and their politics being normalized by parties on both left and right. I fucking hate everything.
It's not like there's a dark, and horrific history with that word or anything.
Good approach there Denmark.
Good approach there Denmark.
Lol straight up calling it ghettos, it would be almost funny if it wasn't a complete disgrace. And yeah, harsher punishments for marginalized groups is going to work just fine.
If you don't integrate you won't get a job, and you'll be an economic burden on society for the rest of your life. It's really not hard to understand why integration is important. The more immigrants who don't contribute, the more other people will resent them, and in the end you get stuff like this, closed borders, etc.
You won't get a job, unless you throw away your culture in exchange for what the Danes consider appropriate? You think this is a fair mindset to have? Because I'm on the topic of culture. Why on earth you're talking about contributions to society after I've extensively made my point clear, I have no idea.
I'm not saying throw away your culture. I'm saying become part of the one you're now in. You can still keep yours as well.
What does that even mean though? What specific part of Danish culture (or any culture) should immigrants become a part of? When people say that immigrants should adopt American culture, I have zero idea what they mean.
The most important thing is learning the language. Without that integration is screwed.
Alright, besides picking up a few words here or there to get by, what else is important?
Because in a country where taxation upon working people is climbing towards 50% and an unemployment rate below 5%, you will be looked at as a perpetual drag on society if you can not find work over time. People who are born there and who fall into that bracket are a natural, if not really desirable social class with its own problems that society will have to handle. People who fall into that social class but who moved there will be stigmatized and will in turn make everything difficult for everybody else they can be associated with.
No, you need to actually be able to have a full conversation.
And of course you should learn about the culture, customs and laws of the new country you're in. That doesn't mean anyone is gonna force you to celebrate Christmas.
I've already said I don't think this is the right way to do it BTW.
Expecting some level of integration is fair.
This would include:
a) speaking the language &
b) values which are not in contrast to the wider Danish society (ie liberal values)
If you are not willing to integrate, why should you be welcomed?
I think learning the language of a country in order to function in it goes without saying. In reference to the article and the conversation that stemmed from it, to what extent are you proposing integration? Recall that Christmas and Easter as "Danish values" are cited in the OP.
Speaking the language is obvious. It doesn't require you to sacrifice your culture to any extent. Liberal values? No way. You need to abide by enacted law, that does not mean you have to be supportive of it.
Speaking the language. Not being homophobic, not being rapey, treating women as equals etc etc
This is a ridiculous question. Why should Denmark accept migrants who will be an economic burden and will make not the slightest effort to be even a little Danish?
If people want to stay immersed in their own culture then not moving to a totally different one seems like a good first step.
absolutely not acceptable if they are already Danish citizens. the whole "ghetto" twist, even if it was not that poorly named, is just an attempt to hide the obvious racist intentions of this maneuver and it splits Danish citizens into 2 classes when they all should be treated the same.
If they are not citizens, yet, it's a different issue, integration is very important and immigrants need to integrate if they wish the become citizens of a country.
If they are not citizens, yet, it's a different issue, integration is very important and immigrants need to integrate if they wish the become citizens of a country.
Indeed. There is an old saying, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
Is anyone forced to come to Denmark (and stay there) against their will?
It's so insane to see some people in here expecting zero effort from immigrants.
It's 100% needed to learn the language in Denmark because that's the language people speak. Sure, people here speak english but workplaces, educations(except some international universities etc.) and all signs are in danish.
So yeah, I expect people who come here to learn our language and accept our societal norms.
This policy however, I don't agree with.
It's 100% needed to learn the language in Denmark because that's the language people speak. Sure, people here speak english but workplaces, educations(except some international universities etc.) and all signs are in danish.
So yeah, I expect people who come here to learn our language and accept our societal norms.
This policy however, I don't agree with.
Again, I have been discussing culture. Please read the quote that was originally quoted on this page. I never mentioned the economy. Are you stating that Denmark only accepts migrants with the promise that they'll try their very best to be at least a little Danish? Because I don't recall that being a requirement.
And I have absolutely no problem with people of different cultures retaining their culture exclusively. Probably because I live in a culturally diverse country; so I don't have xenophobic tendencies.
You haven't been paying any attention to my posts. I'm not going to restate everything until everyone manages to catch up. Please read my posts before quoting me.
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It's obviously the fault of the black people that they can't get hired and aren't viewed as real Danes. The only solution is to treat them as unequal under the law and send their babies to reeducation camps.
Meanwhile, celebrating Christmas next door:
Meanwhile, celebrating Christmas next door:
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You learn the language just by living in the country from birth lol
Does anyone genuinely think you won't? If you're born in the country and live there and are immersed in the language (eg. Go outside every now and then, watch TV etc.), you'll learn be proficient enough in the language by the time you're of schooling age.
Does anyone genuinely think you won't? If you're born in the country and live there and are immersed in the language (eg. Go outside every now and then, watch TV etc.), you'll learn be proficient enough in the language by the time you're of schooling age.
You would think so - the whole issue here, which ended up in making this law, was that there are places where what you describe simply doesn't work well enough to get a basic education (9th grade).
No, that is absolutely not the case, as evidenced by what I witness myself everyday, what any teacher in one of the "problematic" schools will tell you as well as what PISA results show.
Parallel societies are actually a real problem here in Europe. Sometimes the communities isolate themselves that much, that 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants are worse integrated than their parents.
This is a somewhat drastic approach to combat this serious threat, but just calling it racism it pretty naive, though.
This is a somewhat drastic approach to combat this serious threat, but just calling it racism it pretty naive, though.
Culture and geography fail.It's obviously the fault of the black people that they can't get hired and aren't viewed as real Danes. The only solution is to treat them as unequal under the law and send their babies to reeducation camps.
Meanwhile, celebrating Christmas next door:
I was raised only speaking Chinese in my household and rarely even went outside as a child, I'm fully literate in English and a university student now. This is the same for many others that I know who grew up in primarily non-English households (Many languages here, including Arabic, Spanish, Vietnamese etc.) This is my own experience however and probably doesn't accurately reflect the experiences of others but it I have found that people learn the language of the country they're born into.
Thats good - but also a definite sign that you have not experienced living in the kind of parallel society this is targeting.
I'm curious why so many of you bristle at the use of the word "ghetto?"
Does it have any particular negative connotations in the United States?
It seems perfectly innocent word in British English and Danish.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ghetto
I had no idea Denmark was this racist until I spoke to a friend during their World Cup game yesterday. Racism and hypocrisy seems to go hand in hand wherever you are.
they should do the "sane" thing and make daycare mandatory at age of three.
the main thing i hear is that people dislike refugees. but they are people with families who hate taxes.
Politicians always love to talk about integration, both the left and the right. When it comes to paying the bill, they always cheapen out though.
From my experience in Switzerland, our clients get A1 courses, A2 at best. B1 upwards? Sorry, please spend your own money. Yet companies and government are increasing the standards gradually and all the time. It's crazy: One of my student is from Kosovo and he speaks German with heavy accent but easily understandable, yet he barely has a chance to get a Swiss C permit because his local place seems to add the condition of having at least B2 German level for the permit - which is really difficult for old working class people without high education background.
From my experience in Switzerland, our clients get A1 courses, A2 at best. B1 upwards? Sorry, please spend your own money. Yet companies and government are increasing the standards gradually and all the time. It's crazy: One of my student is from Kosovo and he speaks German with heavy accent but easily understandable, yet he barely has a chance to get a Swiss C permit because his local place seems to add the condition of having at least B2 German level for the permit - which is really difficult for old working class people without high education background.
That was one of my first questions. So basically it's 25 hours of paid daycare? Fuck man, I'd have killed for that with my three kids. Minus the forced indoctrination, of course.
Right, I can see the benefits of a comparative religion class for children, especially when society is becoming more mutli-cultural. That isn't what is being proposed here. Instead minority children are being forced to learn about the dominant religion when others don't have the same obligation. Which is unfair and counter-productive.
Only if you let the crazy politicians and extremists be representative of the people that live there.
Sweden's the same. Children are pretty much the number one concern of everything here. And as someone who is single with no kids - and so is a net loser in this - I wouldn't have it any other way.
I too have major concerns with the wording of the article and the understanding of some people here. Do you really, honestly think they are giving religious education to one year olds? Have you ever seen a one year old?
It is straight up Canadian residential school system. Except it used to be a "boarding school" kids torn from parents and taught to forget their own cultures and taught only Anglo Saxon culture. It has basically destroyed aborigines culture. Their are entire religions, traditions and languages lost to time. This just "narrows" it to 25 hours a week.
There are cultures in the world where woman are second class citizens, where women can't be educated, where women can't interact with men without a guardian present, where homosexuality is absolutely reviled, where honour killings happen, where arbitrary justice is handed out, where all sorts of things that are incompatible with liberal western democracy happens.
If you want to have a tribal tattoo or wear dreadlocks or observe Ramadan or whatever then you should be free to do that. But if you want to live in Denmark then you're going to have to interact with Danes, and you're going to have to follow its laws and customs.
What the fuck? I thought Denmark was pretty understanding / open / not racist?
Maybe I am thinking of The Netherlands.
Maybe I am thinking of The Netherlands.