It's not related to their Axx mobile chip lineup, but more to their relationship with ATI : Apple are supposed to unveil (but not necessarily deliver) a new desktop machine this year, targeted for pro users, in replacement of the born-dead trashcan.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Next gen PS5 and next Xbox launch speculation - Secret sauces spicing 2019
- Thread starter Phoenix Splash
- Start date
- Status
It's not related to their Axx mobile chip lineup, but more to their relationship with ATI : Apple are supposed to unveil (but not necessarily deliver) a new desktop machine this year, targeted for pro users, in replacement of the born-dead trashcan.
PS4 Pro can run games at native 4K and has many games that are native 4K. The point which you seem to be missing is to go from PS4 1080p to 4K you quadruple the resolution therefore you need to quadruple the power to achieve said resolution bump, all things being equal. Its not that hard to understand. It doesn't mean you can't achieve 4K with 2Tflops or 4TFlops or 6TFlops with clever optimization and resource management.
Let me put it in a different terms
With a decent CPU, A GTX1060 4Tflops will play every game with medium to high settings at 1080p 60fps but when you increase the resolution to 4K, it will fall below 30fps. A GTX1080 8TFlops will play every game at 4K 60fps. It doesn't mean a GTX1060 could not do 4K if settings were lowered, just GTX1080 would require less compromise.
Again learn a little about architecture, for example hyper threading and cache trashing on a CPU volatile bits solve the same problem on a GPU using Asynch compute and ACE. He does good with limited possibility: Improving performance without creating problem to developer because everything need to be standard.
Didn't they say recently there was a big slowdown in mobile orders?
This is the way it goes with every new node, isn't it? Makes sense I guess - biggest customer and probably some of the smaller chips?
For 7nm, yeah. Doesn't mean they're going to stop making new phones or pushing the tech envelope :)
It likely has a mobile (6T) and HPC (7.5T) variant, but who knows how much adoption 7nm+ will see for HPC.
Depends what you mean by qualified judgement.
Anyone can see the parts in the PS4 and the info Sony has released and tell you it is consumer based hardware with very little customisation or containing future designs, like the Cell and Xenos did.
This has not even been an argument. People have known that PS4 took bespoke PC hardware and made some small modifications to produce a powerful box at a affordable price.
Is it a good job, yes, but it is the simplist and least custom approach to console design in a while.
I think this design philosophy is actually better, but it's not like Cerny (or Microsoft) cracked the code in the videogame equivalent of the manhatten project.
Yes but there was also a report yesterday that TSMC will be the only Foundry producing the A13 processor for Apple. I assume that alone is already a good junk of the production.
Xenos was a Power PC in order CPU with SMT with good vector unit and a dot product instruction nothing earth shattering. The special part of the PS3 was the CELL SPU and it is now replace by compute shading( GPGPU) and probably much better vector Instruction set (AVX 512) on PS5 and Xbox Scarlett family*.
*it was subpar on Jaguar
EDIT: Maybe Xenos was the GPU of the 360 I don't remember
True, but as you know not all CPU code in games is even vectorizable. Many devs don't even have the time to approach those kinds of optimisations. Middleware providers and first parties, perhaps.
Autovectorization capability in newer vector instruction sets would help with this. I'd be keen to understand what Zen2 offer in this regard.
I'll ask you again, are you basing this opinion on any personal expertise or not? Because if "making a console out of bespoke PC hardware" (is it off the shelves, or is it bespoke?) is easy, then saying "everyone can see that blah blah blah" is even easier.
Like, for example, how do you know the modifications are "small"? And how do you know they were simple in their implementation? And why are you concluding that the only modifications they've made, or the only work that they've done on the hardware, is the stuff they're making public knowledge?
It's on thing to look at Cerny's work and Kutaragi's work, and make the conclusion "huh, well, this one thing seems more unique than the other". It's quite another to extrapolate from that "well, this Cerny fella ain't doing anything special!".
It's easy to belittle the work of engineers in a technical field of expertise you don't even fully understand.
It's much harder, however, to justify said criticism when you have nothing to back up your uninformed opinion.
It's much harder, however, to justify said criticism when you have nothing to back up your uninformed opinion.
Before I continue with this debate with you, what outcome do you wish to come out of it?
It will help me better answer your questions. Thanks.
I'm trying to ascertain if you're one or the other:
1: Random forum guy making an uninformed statement.
2: Informed person making an informed opinion based on more than what is parroted on forums.
I thought that was pretty clear when I asked "Do you have any expertise?".
TSMC are supposed to have separate tracks for mobile and HPC, though how that works at the wafer level I don't know.
My thoughts about the Cerny remarks about minimal specs of 8T for 4K gaming:
a) I see his remarks as related to the Playstation system architecture and their capabilities. Unfortunately we cannot prove it as there is no Playstation with a 8TF spec and next gen console will not be comparable to the current system architecture so we will never be able to prove it.
b) On the other hand we have an instantiation in reality of a different system architecture that is capable to offer 4K gaming with AAA titles now which is the Xbox One X
Because of a) & b) I personally don't understand why people think about Cerny's remark as a rule or to be an absolute truth. It is an estimation based on certain parameters derived from the PS4 architecture (we don't know for sure what they are btw). The Xbox One X is an example of a different set of parameters that shows that the minimal spec can be lower than what Cerny calculated for his line of products.
If we need any analogy to prove my point we just should look to NVIDIA and AMD Tflops which produce total different peak performance while sharing the same spec value.
a) I see his remarks as related to the Playstation system architecture and their capabilities. Unfortunately we cannot prove it as there is no Playstation with a 8TF spec and next gen console will not be comparable to the current system architecture so we will never be able to prove it.
b) On the other hand we have an instantiation in reality of a different system architecture that is capable to offer 4K gaming with AAA titles now which is the Xbox One X
Because of a) & b) I personally don't understand why people think about Cerny's remark as a rule or to be an absolute truth. It is an estimation based on certain parameters derived from the PS4 architecture (we don't know for sure what they are btw). The Xbox One X is an example of a different set of parameters that shows that the minimal spec can be lower than what Cerny calculated for his line of products.
If we need any analogy to prove my point we just should look to NVIDIA and AMD Tflops which produce total different peak performance while sharing the same spec value.
Last edited:
Oh right, so "random forum guys" can only give uninformed statements?
I think, You are trying to push the narrative that "Mark cerny created the PS4 which was an incredible feat of engineering and the PS4 is was highly sophisticated"
While the customisations to the AMD hardware cerny and the team made may have been challenging (do you have proof of this?)
That does not mean the hardware punched above its weight or was revolutionary, which was my point that you have not really put up a compelling argument against yet.
8-10TF is a very realistic number for the next generation machines...6-8TF is very realistic too for projects Lockhart and whatever base model comes.
Obviously Cerny is talking about AMD's GCN Arch at 8TF for 4k with optimized code on a Playstation
I would constrain the Cerny remarks to the current gen of playstation consoles as the system architecture will change dramatically with next gen by just using Zen CPU cores and Navi GPU cores which will be both much more efficient compared to what we have now. This could lead to achieving better performances at same specs and could explain a possible 8TF PS5 console (stated spec is based on that AMD engineering sample) absolutely capable to deliver a generational jump.
You think I'm trying to push a narrative when you've point-blank asked me what I meant, and I gave you a literal answer multiple time over?
I'm just trying to point out that you're arguing from an uninformed point of view, which I'm safely presuming is the case, given your bobbing and weaving around my original question.
By the by, what makes Kutaragi a genius, and Cerny not, when the unique piece of tech was deemed a catastrophic failure, and the "safe bet" a huge and resounding success that turned the entire company around? Cerny is considered "a genius" for making the right decisions at the right time.
Oh, and by the way, I think it's a pretty safe conclusion that making any piece of hardware is extremely difficult at a base level, no matter how simple a layman might think it is from his armchair.
Although what you say is simply true. Not always criticism (especially when they ask politely) are intent on diminishing the work of others.
Me from mine, as end user I can evaluate three or four simple points. Performance, Build Quality, Aesthetics and Ergonomics.
As a simple electronic enthusiast who tries to understand something of this world....I've always been fascinated by those who try to push technology to the limits with innovation and sometime courage.
There is certainly no need for a degree in electronic engineering to read about it and become aware that unified memory of the x360 has introduced innumerable advantages (in performance and simplicity of development)...as indeed, it is common knowledge that the Cell, although extremely complex, was a very powerful processor that could make the difference if well used. Certainly I would not put the customizations of this generation on the same ones with the previous ones. from a performance point of view and of standardization (fp16 for example was more a buzzword than anything else ...as was the "power of the cloud" )
And anyway I will never understand why criticism of certain figures must be understood as a condemnation
PS4 Pro and Xbox One X have are derived from the same GPU architecture Polaris. PS4 Pro GPU CU are a bit bigger because there is some Vega features. Again he speak in theory because for every 1080p PS4 game ALU bound you need to multiply by 4 the CU power. You need a reference to say what is a 4k games. Same thing 8 TF is not enough for 900p PS4 |ALU bound game for example.
Saying a console is able to do 4k games means nothing without a reference point, For example PS4 Pro is able to do PS3 games at 4k...
Why not just reply to what I'm saying?
Being technically educated in computer design does not make a difference in the statement I am saying.
Uh, yeah, it does.
"Cerny made hardware are not that special".
Coming from someone from the industry, that statement might hold some weight. However, if it comes from someone who still parrots "It's just pc parts off the shelves, bro!" in 2019, well...
I was talking about system architecture and not just GPU architectures. This includes memory, dedicated audio hw and other things. And yes he spoke in theory which is exactly my point. And I think nobody denies that his theory is valid for the playstation system architecture. But the point is that different system architectures are able to achieve a similar thing with a lower spec on GPU and not just in theory.
Btw my reference point is that a Xbox One X is running native 4K AAA games more common than not since its release.
Edit:
I want to add that the talk above is about the past as efficiency of the CPU and GPU will raise (dramatically on the CPU). With this in mind a 8TF GPU spec might be already good enough to provide a generational leap in games. At least that is my hope.
Last edited:
The point is, those mentioned nuggets of conventional wisdom you describe as "common knowledge" are only commonly knowm because more informed persons than you have originated them and passed that information on to you and others.
I'd presume that at the beginning of last generation, you and many others who now know the impact of the 360s UMA or the Cell, would have been clueless as to their implication, until certain informed people from the development community told you what the ramifications of those technical design factors meant.
On your point about criticism, I disagree. If you aren't more informed on a subject than an expert in their specific field of study, to me at least it seems like sheer arrogance to think you can criticise their work and think that your criticisms hold any value. By all means criticise, but if you don't sufficiently grasp what it is you're criticising you'll have to forgive others for dismissing your criticisms out of hand.
Ok, so why is the hardware special?
Are you in the industry?
Also I never said "it's just PC parts off the shelf bro"
So please don't misrepresent what I say.
Without a doubt.
Zen Cores will be the biggest jump this generation, it will mean devs can Target a 60fps open world as an option for those who rather play at high frame rate.
I mean even games like Forrnite and Apex will be able to hit 120hz for the upcoming VRR TVs.
In general for me it's the biggest & most important upgrade this coming gen... Both at 7nm which will give more performance with less power draw like we saw with Zen 2.
I'm not saying the hardware is special. Again, I was just trying to figure out if you held any actual expertise that made you some kind of authority on claiming that the hardware isn't special.
I asked this question because you seem to base your comment on the most cursory of knowledge, which is "these are basically off the shelve PC parts!!!". This smacks of "not knowing what you don't know" territory. You don't seem to really knows what goes into actual hardware development, so you can't really make any actual qualified statements about whether Cerny's work is ingenious, or even if Crazy Ken Kutaragi's fridge CPU's are the actual genius.
You can say whatever you want. I'm just questioning the actual veracity of it. I, on the other hand, am making no claim one way or the other.
Mark Cerny did an amazing work with what he had at that time especially given Sony was on a tight budget back then as well.
PS4 turned out to be the machine devs wanted even more so with the 8GB Ram at the end of the day.
PS5 will continue to build off from PS4 I'm sure
At least some sense Cerny has reason because he talks about Playstation system and he only speaks about ALU bound game. Explain more would be tedious and complicated.
Last edited:
I don't think you need a deep understanding of console design to aknowledge the hardware is not "special"
But special can mean a lot of things, which is why I gave further context to my thoughts.
Regardless of if you in the industry or not, what do you think of the PS4 hardware?
Do you think its a simple design? Or complicated? Do you think it's special?
I have no basis of knowledge to form any kind of worthwhile opinion on this. Except for maybe to say that the argument itself is worthless to begin with. I mean, what does it mean to be "special"? Is special good? Are simple designs inherently "not special"? Is complicated inherently "special", and by extent, better? If "special" and "complicated" is inherently better, then why was Kutaragi's over-designed thing a catastrophic failure? How do we know that "special" is more difficult to attain than a seemingly straight-forward design when neither of us really has any clue as to how hardware is even built to begin with?
This is what I know: There is probably a lot more nuance to a venture like building a mass-manufactured video game console than is readily apparant from the outside, especially when interpretted by people like us, who really don't have the first clue as to what actually goes into any of this. You say it's just "off the shelf PC parts". I say, who says that makes it any easier to put together? I mean, by your logic, steamboxes should have been a huge success that any old hardware dev could have gotten into without breaking a sweat. Right?
While simple design are not bad, and in fact can be excellent even.
The point that I was making is that the PS4 was not some great achievement in hardware design + engineering.
And the replies to TheTruthofKayle post that started my line of posts on this subject did not make sense.
There is an absolute TON of work, testing, work, testing, engineering, testing, consultations, testing, budgeting and testing that goes into ANY console design, be it super custom or semi custom. But the PS4 would fall into the latter category, *because* it is based on a very pedestrian PC-like design with various modifications that make sense for the box and its targets. And I'm not saying that as an insult. In today's day and age, that's a good thing. But it doesn't change what the PS4 is and what the PS5 will be.
I'm not trying to take away from the fact that the hardware isn't unique, so I agree. I'm just saying to those tow that "maybe us laypeople don't really know enough to say that any old dolt could have developed a PS4, just because on the most superficial of levels, the hardware is PC-like". Cerny is respected by his peers, so he must be doing something right that random-forum-dweller doesn't really understand.
Because it does not perform vastly different from equivalent PC hardware and the hardware is tweaked bespoke PC hardware.
The PS4 performs how you would expect it to, it does what it says on the tin.
But seeing as you admitted this.
"I have no basis of knowledge to form any kind of worthwhile opinion on this"
From your own admittance your opinion is not worthwhile on the subject, I don't know how you can agree or disagree with my opinion.
Carmack is wrong. Anthony Hopkins said so.
jk.
The reason the ps4 is like a PC because the all third party devs asked sony to make the console like a PC. Simple as that.
- Status