Next gen PS5 and next Xbox launch speculation - Secret sauces spicing 2019

[vivftp]

So if there is to be a PlayStation tablet, what exactly are we expecting here? Streaming only over wi-fi and 5G? Play PS4 games? From what little I've gathered any proposed chipset for the PS5 is going to be way too power hungry for a mobile device, so maybe the tablet can play PS1-4 games locally and only PS5 games via PS Now?

I know we haven't gotten much on this front, but curious what peoples thoughts are.

 

[Screen Looker]

So if there is to be a PlayStation tablet, what exactly are we expecting here? Streaming only over wi-fi and 5G? Play PS4 games? From what little I've gathered any proposed chipset for the PS5 is going to be way too power hungry for a mobile device, so maybe the tablet can play PS1-4 games locally and only PS5 games via PS Now?

I know we haven't gotten much on this front, but curious what peoples thoughts are.

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I would expect that i'd scratch my head wondering why Sony wasted time building this thing?

There's no cheap tablet that is playing PS4 games.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

What l was trying to get at is the new 7nm Radeon 7 is barely any quicker than an RTX 280 (which provides RTX capabilities as well) yet the AMD GPU will consume significantly more power (300W TDP) than the RTX280 (215W TDP).

Where is AMD wasting all the power and why has Nvidia got such a perf per watt advantage?

As a bystander I see Vega as a very inefficient power hungry architecture for gaming and unless AMD pull something out of the bag for Navi we should temper our expectations for PS5.

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Is it possible to work out gflop per watt?

Because the x1x uses 180w under max load and has 6tflop in 16nm.

 

[nolifebr]

So if there is to be a PlayStation tablet, what exactly are we expecting here? Streaming only over wi-fi and 5G? Play PS4 games? From what little I've gathered any proposed chipset for the PS5 is going to be way too power hungry for a mobile device, so maybe the tablet can play PS1-4 games locally and only PS5 games via PS Now?

I know we haven't gotten much on this front, but curious what peoples thoughts are.

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Probably just streaming. It should replace the Vita as the recommended device for Remote Play/PSNow Streaming.
I do not expect Sony to try to run PS1/2 games natively. Maybe if the tablet runs Android, you'll be able to install some emulators.

 

[anexanhume]

So if there is to be a PlayStation tablet, what exactly are we expecting here? Streaming only over wi-fi and 5G? Play PS4 games? From what little I've gathered any proposed chipset for the PS5 is going to be way too power hungry for a mobile device, so maybe the tablet can play PS1-4 games locally and only PS5 games via PS Now?

I know we haven't gotten much on this front, but curious what peoples thoughts are.

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The patent with detachable controllers mentions WiFi, cellular, BT, GPU, and VRAM.

 

[vivftp]

The patent with detachable controllers mentions WiFi, cellular, BT, GPU, and VRAM.

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So I guess that begs the question, what sort of hardware is this tablet going to potentially run? If Sony really are working closely with AMD then could they be working on an ultra low power Navi for this product? Would it just run the latest and greatest from Qualcomm just like the Xperias?

Personally I'd prefer the former and would be giddy enough to wet myself if they somehow made a portable capable of playing PS5 games (lower res, of course) on the device itself. Maybe not only have them render at a lower res like 720p but have checkboard hardware built in to scale it back up to 1080?

I mean, all the figures we keep hearing about for potential PS5 performance specs and power draw... well that's to do gaming at 4K, right? If the tablet only has to be capable of 720p then does anyone want to guess where that puts us in the realm of feasibility? The door is potentially open to Sony requesting custom hardware from AMD for this... it doesn't even have to launch with the PS5, it could come a couple years later. I'd be on board if they could somehow pull it off...

 

[anexanhume]

So I guess that begs the question, what sort of hardware is this tablet going to potentially run? If Sony really are working closely with AMD then could they be working on an ultra low power Navi for this product? Would it just run the latest and greatest from Qualcomm just like the Xperias?

Personally I'd prefer the former and would be giddy enough to wet myself if they somehow made a portable capable of playing PS5 games (lower res, of course) on the device itself. Maybe not only have them render at a lower res like 720p but have checkboard hardware built in to scale it back up to 1080?

I mean, all the figures we keep hearing about for potential PS5 performance specs and power draw... well that's to do gaming at 4K, right? If the tablet only has to be capable of 720p then does anyone want to guess where that puts us in the realm of feasibility? The door is potentially open to Sony requesting custom hardware from AMD for this... it doesn't even have to launch with the PS5, it could come a couple years later. I'd be on board if they could somehow pull it off...

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I honestly don't know. They can't shrink the PS4 SoC to tablet levels and any ARM SoC is going to have compatibility issues in trying to run emulation. If it just needs to stream, it could do with a really weak SoC.

 

[Deleted member 40133]

I honestly don't know. They can't shrink the PS4 SoC to tablet levels and any ARM SoC is going to have compatibility issues in trying to run emulation. If it just needs to stream, it could do with a really weak SoC.

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Isn't the simplest solution that they're basically doing the same thing ms is doing? Basically the game is streamed and you have some local hardware to deal with latency

 

[anexanhume]

Isn't the simplest solution that they're basically doing the same thing ms is doing? Basically the game is streamed and you have some local hardware to deal with latency

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Simplest? No, but certainly the most cost effective. That's a lot of software and server side processing. Much more in MS's wheelhouse.

 

[Deleted member 12635]

I have seen the frame rate discussion and want to add that even the new Radeon VII is not able to reach 60fps in all games if we want to believe the numbers AMD themselves provided! And this is a card with a peak performance of 13.8TF. I would be careful to expect all games will run 4K/60fps out of the gate even we can assume the overhead there that impacts frame rate is much less.

The chart shows the measured frame rates with game on 2160p. Settings in each game are unknown. Games under 60fps are:

• AC: Odyssey,
• Deus Ex: Mankind Divided,
• Hitman 2,
• Just Cause 4,
• Middle Earth:SOW,
• Monster Hunter World,
• Rise of the Tomb Raider,
• Witcher 3,
• GhostRecon Wildlands
• and Total War: Warhammer 2.

Some of those I am really surprised except for Just Cause 4 of course and maybe Monster Hunter.

 

[SharpX68K]

I don't think Radeon VII is any indication of what PS5 and Xbox Scarlett/Anaconda will be able to pull off.

Vega architecture is already pretty old because the PC gaming cards release got delayed by nearly a year and will be nearly ancient by the time next-gen consoles arrive.

AMD Vega 10 was originally known as Greenland, the flagship of what was to be the Arctic Islands family, back in early 2015, intended for a 2016 release. Greenland / Vega 10 was also going to be used in large APUs with Zen cores.

https://www.fudzilla.com/news/graphics/37386-amd-working-on-greenland-hbm-graphics
https://wccftech.com/amd-greenland-gpu-32-gb-hbm2-memory-15-18-billion-transistors/
https://www.kitguru.net/components/...ndvega-10-gpu-to-have-4096-stream-processors/

The PS5 GPU is supposed to be fully based on Navi.

As for Xbox Scarlett, less is known, but I would think the GPUs might use a blend of Navi and Next Gen GPU IP blocks.

9th gen console GPUs?

 

[msia2k75]

I have seen the frame rate discussion and want to add that even the new Radeon VII is not able to reach 60fps in all games if we want to believe the numbers AMD themselves provided! And this is a card with a peak performance of 13.8TF. I would be careful to expect all games will run 4K/60fps out of the gate even we can assume the overhead there that impacts frame rate is much less.

The chart shows the measured frame rates with game on 2160p. Settings in each game are unknown. Games under 60fps are:

• AC: Odyssey,
• Deus Ex: Mankind Divided,
• Hitman 2,
• Just Cause 4,
• Middle Earth:SOW,
• Monster Hunter World,
• Rise of the Tomb Raider,
• Witcher 3,
• GhostRecon Wildlands
• and Total War: Warhammer 2.

Some of those I am really surprised except for Just Cause 4 of course and maybe Monster Hunter.

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Not only that, but it's important to remember we're talking of current gen titles... Not next-gen titles. 4K/60 is a pipedream imo.

 

[Intersect]

The GPUs have been IF capable since Vega. The GPU chiplet would share bandwidth that way. Similar to how existing APUs can share bandwidth with Vega graphics.



Don't let us down, Navi.

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Forgot about that, Very small Vega GPUs designed to be iGPU not dGPU does have IF. So you are proposing that there will be a small Navi and mid size Navi for iGPU that can be used for a MCM version Console SoC.

We know about the custom Polaris-Vega attached to an Intel CPU but I thought the smart Interposer handled most of the IO.

 

[anexanhume]

Forgot about that, Very small Vega GPUs designed to be iGPU not dGPU does have IF. So you are proposing that there will be a small Navi and mid size Navi for iGPU that can be used for a MCM version Console SoC.

We know about the custom Polaris-Vega attached to an Intel CPU but I thought the smart Interposer handled most of the IO.

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All Radeon products Vega and after are IF.

Kaby Lake G is EMIB to the on-package HBM2 and PCIe between the GPU and CPU.

 

[CrypticSlayer]

Brad Sams is hearing that Anaconda will have an SSD of up to 1 TB .

 

[Whatislove]

Brad Sams is hearing that Anaconda will have an SSD of up to 1 TB .

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Won't that cost an insane amount for a console?

 

[Deleted member 5764]

Brad Sams is hearing that Anaconda will have an SSD of up to 1 TB .

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I could see that as an optional SKU, but I just can't believe this would be the default option.

 

[Kyoufu]

I could see that as an optional SKU, but I just can't believe this would be the default option.

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Anaconda is supposedly the premium model so not really far-fetched that they'd include an SSD with it.

 

[CrypticSlayer]

Yeah I find it hard to believe as the default SKU unless prices drop so much.
He's also heard the price would be in the 400-500 range.

 

[Deleted member 5764]

Anaconda is supposedly the premium model so not really far-fetched that they'd include an SSD with it.

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Oh yeah! Too many codenames at this point. I forgot that Anaconda is the "Pro" SKU. I guess the question will be what size they'd put in. IMO, it should be 1TB or bust. 500GB just isn't going to cut it.

 

[CrypticSlayer]

It has to be 1 TB since the X is. It would look bad lowering it from the previous console.

 

[modiz]

Brad Sams is hearing that Anaconda will have an SSD of up to 1 TB .

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Called it. I knew from the beginning that the main way for MS to look more premium and go for a higher cost would be with 1TB SSD. MS and Sony both have the same Navi 10 ceiling where I expect both to reach around the same performance level. And with the cpu there isn't much reason to be that much faster unless if you plan to make it a 60fps console, which I heavily doubt.

 

[Adookah]

1TB SSD sounds sexy.

 

[Deleted member 12635]

Won't that cost an insane amount for a console?

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Just read an article today that SSD flash memory is going to drop another 50% this year.

I personally would do a combines drive SSD and HDD with a similar technology to StoreMI which is used on AMD systems. I just implemented it on my new rig and the machanical drive already benefits from it.

 

[Deleted member 23046]

Apple used an hybrid system between 2012 and 2017.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_Drive

 

[Deleted member 12635]

Apple used an hybrid system between 2012 and 2017.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_Drive

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Indeed, it is exactly that what StoreMI does too. I have combined a 256GB SSD with a 4TB HDD in addition to my exisiting system NVMe of 500GB.

 

[Whatislove]

Indeed, it is exactly that what StoreMI does too. I have combined a 256GB SSD with a 4TB HDD in addition to my exisiting system NVMe of 500GB.

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Don't those fall well behind of the SSD in terms of speed?

 

[anexanhume]

Won't that cost an insane amount for a console?

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1TB SSDs will be below $100 at retail by the time next gen launches. Wholesale? Perhaps $60-70. Just $30 more than the BOM cost for the 500GB drives last gen launched with.

 

[Deleted member 5764]

1TB SSDs will be below $100 at retail by the time next gen launches. Wholesale? Perhaps $60-70. Just $30 more than the BOM cost for the 500GB drives last gen launched with.

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Holy shit. This is getting me quite excited!

 

[Whatislove]

1TB SSDs will be below $100 at retail by the time next gen launches. Wholesale? Perhaps $60-70. Just $30 more than the BOM cost for the 500GB drives last gen launched with.

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Great, now I'll need to buy a massive external slower hard drive and rotate games onto the faster drive :(

 

[Phoenix Splash]

MS is probably willing to take the money loss if they get marketshare back with a better storage than the competition.* My question is: If the next Xbox has an SSD while the PS5 has an HDD, would Xbox games be smaller in size than PS5 games? I don't really know how game compression works, so I'd like to have this clarified.

*Not like better storage is gonna be THAT much of a factor when getting a console, IMO.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

If Sony really worked so closely with AMD on Navi why would they let MS use it?

 

[Deleted member 5764]

MS is probably willing to take the money loss if they get marketshare back with a better storage than the competition.* My question is: If the next Xbox has an SSD while the PS5 has an HDD, would Xbox games be smaller in size than PS5 games? I don't really know how game compression works, so I'd like to have this clarified.

*Not like better storage is gonna be THAT much of a factor when getting a console, IMO.

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To clarify, only one SKU of the next Xbox is rumored to have an SSD. The lower-end model would likely have a regular HDD. I know nothing about the file size though. I imagine they'd both be the same. Xbox would just have faster loading times on one model.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

With games so huge I'd honestly rather have a 2tb 7200rpm spinner, or even 4tb hybrid. Prefer not to have an external taking up more shelf space and being an eyesore. A 32gb SSD os drive would be nice though.

 

[modiz]

MS is probably willing to take the money loss if they get marketshare back with a better storage than the competition. My question is: If the next Xbox has an SSD while the PS5 has an HDD, would Xbox games be smaller in size than PS5 games? I don't really know how game compression works, so I'd like to have this clarified.

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Isn't SSD related more to loading speed rather than file compression? Anyway the anaconda pro will be held back by anaconda arcade in that regard (assuming that anaconda arcade has HDD).

If Sony really worked so closely with AMD on Navi why would they let MS use it?

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Maybe, just maybe, Sony only helped them and don't have exclusivity on it??? It just means that Sony directs Navi towards the features Sony believes in.

 

[AegonSnake]

If Sony really worked so closely with AMD on Navi why would they let MS use it?

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MS has worked closely with AMD on Navi as well.

 

[Deleted member 23046]

Indeed, it is exactly that what StoreMI does too. I have combined a 256GB SSD with a 4TB HDD in addition to my exisiting system NVMe of 500GB.

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Technically flash cache works great for long transfert (typically an initial game loading) and you don't need a large amount of it, but it implies a lot of precautions to prevent wear leveling and ensure data protection. I just hope we could simply change the internal drive as today (at least for the PS4). With an average Crucial SSD in my console I don't feel loading as an annoyance today, but sure it could be better.

 

[Nerun]

https://www.dramexchange.com/WeeklyResearch/Post/2/5192.html

SSD prices will continue to drop heavily in 2019

I really hope we'll see some sort of flash drive in the next gen consoles.

 

[Intersect]

All Radeon products Vega and after are IF.

Kaby Lake G is EMIB to the on-package HBM2 and PCIe between the GPU and CPU.

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For IF you are talking the software protocols not a dedicated port. PS4 has a PCIe 4 line data path between APU and Southbridge with HSA IOMMU on either side (bottleneck limiting game load times). This external southbridge should become part of the IO block and moved internal either as a MCM chiplet or inside a monolithic SoC.

In a PC, a Navi dGPU has it's own video out but accesses IO via the PCIe port to the CPU which contains the IO block to DDR4 memory and hard disk. This creates latency when the GPU accesses the DDR4 memory connected to the CPU; a HPCC in the GPU is supposed to minimize this. In a console, CPU and GPU are connected to each other with a common GDDR5 memory pool as below with a PCIe to Southbridge as IO.

The PS4 APU/GDDR5 memory is allocated either to the CPU or GPU, using two separate memory buses not PCIe and not with a software layer called IF which adds latency.
Onion (20Gb/s) is mapped through the CPU caches... This allows the CPU to have good access to memory," explains Jenner.
Garlic (176GB/s) bypasses the CPU caches and has very high bandwidth suitable for graphics programming, which goes straight to the GPU.

The point I was trying to make is that a console design is not a PC design and a dGPU does not have the IO and neither will a CPU chiplet. A PC CPU is a package containing CPU chiplet and IO. HPCC may allow a PC design but that will not be a chiplet design.

 

[anexanhume]

Great, now I'll need to buy a massive external slower hard drive and rotate games onto the faster drive :(

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External drives can be even faster than internal ones on current consoles. I assume they'll use USB-C which has enough bandwidth for even external SSDs.

 

[Deleted member 12635]

Don't those fall well behind of the SSD in terms of speed?

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The tests I saw (SSD against StoreMI for example) showed that the difference is bigger in the beginning but after learning the access patterns the combined drive can achieve around 80% of the speed of an SSD which imo is quite remarkable.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

MS has worked closely with AMD on Navi as well.

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Where was that said ?
Yeah i expect both of them work with AMD to get what they want .
Still the rumours we get was more about Sony and AMD with Navi.

 

[Super Barrier]

Based on ERA and their findings, Navi is joint project between Sony and AMD and AMD has about 70% of its workforce working on customizations for Sony. If this is correct then it'll be interesting to see how MS compares with their GPU since we have even less (?) info about that.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

Based on ERA and their findings, Navi is joint project between Sony and AMD and AMD has about 70% of its workforce working on customizations for Sony. If this is correct then it'll be interesting to see how MS compares with their GPU since we have even less (?) info about that.

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When people say "AMD are doing Navi for Sony" it sounds like Sony will own Navi, in these kind of deals thats never been the case.
It's always PC GPUs with a few minor tweaks or enhancements.

It's like back in the day Sony were more in bed with IBM then MS for the making of the cell, but Ms came along and got CPU with some of cells tech.

 

[FSavage]

If we're going to believe that 1TB ssd rumor, what if these slides where real after all..

I actually don't see Anaconda and PS5 differing too much in specs. If PS5 really had these specs, if MS still wanted to keep their 'strongest system' crown, they would really have to overspend and overcharge to create a system stronger than the one above, and I don't think that it would sit right with investors and MS upper management... unless they also have a second system that's much cheaper to make and would make a profit from day one to make up for the higher end system 🤔.

 

[Phoenix Splash]

To clarify, only one SKU of the next Xbox is rumored to have an SSD. The lower-end model would likely have a regular HDD. I know nothing about the file size though. I imagine they'd both be the same. Xbox would just have faster loading times on one model.

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Isn't SSD related more to loading speed rather than file compression? Anyway the anaconda pro will be held back by anaconda arcade in that regard (assuming that anaconda arcade has HDD).

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Oh, that's underwhelming compared to what I had in mind. Thanks for clarifying. Are loading times a big deal today? I know SSDs are faster regarding that and could even help loading assets in open world games, but I thought developers could take an even bigger advantage regarding game compression.

If we're going to believe that 1TB ssd rumor, what if these slides where real after all..

I actually don't see Anaconda and PS5 differing too much in specs. If PS5 really had these specs, if MS still wanted to keep their 'strongest system' crown, they would really have to overspend and overcharge to create a system stronger than the one above, and I don't think that it would sit right with investors and MS upper management... unless they also have a second system that's much cheaper to make and would make a profit from day one to make up for the higher end system 🤔.

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I just cannot see a 32GB console with the current situation, perhaps even with the former situation, before memory prices exploded. My guess is 24GB, at least for the Sony console: 3-4GB for the OS and the rest being available for the games, which could be: 6-8GB for 4k(?) textures alone and the remaining for the rest of the game.

The MS console seems more unpredictable, at least until we know if the "entry level" console is aiming for 299 or 399.

 

[Deleted member 5764]

Oh, that's underwhelming compared to what I had in mind. Thanks for clarifying. Are loading times a big deal today? I know SSDs are faster regarding that and could even help loading assets in open world games, but I thought developers could take an even bigger advantage regarding game compression.

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It depends on the game really. Developers that can will try to just creatively work around loading times and hide them. Ones that don't have had some pretty bad ones this gen. FFXV is terrible on this front, as is Monster Hunter World.

If we're going to believe that 1TB ssd rumor, what if these slides where real after all..

I actually don't see Anaconda and PS5 differing too much in specs. If PS5 really had these specs, if MS still wanted to keep their 'strongest system' crown, they would really have to overspend and overcharge to create a system stronger than the one above, and I don't think that it would sit right with investors and MS upper management... unless they also have a second system that's much cheaper to make and would make a profit from day one to make up for the higher end system 🤔.

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I'm no expert on this, but I just don't see the numbers working out there. That'd be a $599 piece of hardware for sure.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

When people say "AMD are doing Navi for Sony" it sounds like Sony will own Navi, in these kind of deals thats never been the case.
It's always PC GPUs with a few minor tweaks or enhancements.

It's like back in the day Sony were more in bed with IBM then MS for the making of the cell, but Ms came along and got CPU with some of cells tech.

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Some times it's way more than tweaks but that don't mean Sony going to own it .
MS CPU in 360 was base more on IBM side of things than what Cell end up being .

If we're going to believe that 1TB ssd rumor, what if these slides where real after all..

I actually don't see Anaconda and PS5 differing too much in specs. If PS5 really had these specs, if MS still wanted to keep their 'strongest system' crown, they would really have to overspend and overcharge to create a system stronger than the one above, and I don't think that it would sit right with investors and MS upper management... unless they also have a second system that's much cheaper to make and would make a profit from day one to make up for the higher end system 🤔.

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That would cost over $500 but if Sony was willing to lose about $100 and some small changes it would be possible.
To bad i don't see it happening as it would be a awesome system .

 

[Super Barrier]

When people say "AMD are doing Navi for Sony" it sounds like Sony will own Navi, in these kind of deals thats never been the case.
It's always PC GPUs with a few minor tweaks or enhancements.

It's like back in the day Sony were more in bed with IBM then MS for the making of the cell, but Ms came along and got CPU with some of cells tech.

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Okay, thanks for this info.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

People think that console manufacturers are incorporating Nasa dark matter space age shit into there consoles.

But at the end of the day its rather straightforward.
I think the biggest mystery is price.

$399 just isn't the same in consumer electronics as it was in 2013.

It's going to be an 8 core zen variant, it will have a 11-15tflop gpu and 16-24gb of GDDR6, graphics will be Similer to tech demos made on gtx 1080s.

Its going to like that, I can almost guarantee it.