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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread - MY ANACONDA DON'T WANT NONE

Overall maximum teraflops for next-gen launch consoles?

  • 8 teraflops

    Votes: 37 1.8%
  • 9 teraflops

    Votes: 51 2.4%
  • 12 teraflops

    Votes: 902 42.7%
  • 14 teraflops

    Votes: 497 23.5%
  • Team ALL THE WAY UP +14 teraflops

    Votes: 443 21.0%
  • 10 teraflops (because for some reason I put 9 instead of 10)

    Votes: 184 8.7%

  • Total voters
    2,114
Nov 2, 2017
147
formasymphonic Talking about blazing fast storage solutions, I wanted to digress for a moment to that Spiderman GDC talk. Having watched the conference in its entirety, starting from the topic of Asset Duplication slide onward, the presenter talked a lot of disc space, which I took to be, BD. Later he was talking about the bandwidth for streaming data off of the disc (and its rotational speed and seek times)-

Now, what I am confused about is why is anything other than cutscenes being streamed from the disc? I was under the impression that games on BD are still pretty much copied on to the internal storage and that the disc is simply needed as a check of authenticity to run the game.
He talked about HDD, not BD.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,557
What I meant was the loading times are so fast already (like literally a few seconds in recent games or even unnoticeable in older games like Skyrim:SE with mods) and sacrificing hardware in this chase for a few second faster loading time sounds silly to me. You said so yourself that NVMe is much faster and I'll take your word for that. If my SATA SSD is already insanely fast (it's an 850 EVO) then these consoles will have absolutely no problems if they're using the faster NVMe SSD so why would they need to go even further with more custom hardware? Everything comes at a cost my man. We both know this.

As I said before, both are rumoured to be using NVMe SSD from literally every rumour from both sides you can find that even mentions storage.
850 EVO is/was great for its time! As prices are going down on SSDs at a consumer level, the cost is minimal for SATA and NVMe (SATA still cheaper) is what I was getting at for current tech. My guess is that going a specialized or even NVMe route of SSD probably won't be a huge factor vs a SATA SSD solution.

The dev kits might have NVMe to mimic what the console would have. But doesn't necessarily mean it'll use NVMe.
This. The Wired article never stated that it was NVMe for PS5. It talked about improvements to the raw speeds, I/O mechanisms (this is huge IMO), and software stack. This to me hints that this custom SSD could possibly proprietary, or just something not on the market yet. However, that software stack is Sony's own customization.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,162
Well again as far as the rumours are going it seems there will be custom solutions from one or either company but it depends how much this "secret sauce" will cost each of them. As for development capabilities I don't think it would do much. Devs for a start would have to target the lowest common denominator which is going to be PC gamers who will still be using conventional HDD or slower SSD than "secret sauce" SSD tech, and they aren't going to make a game which won't run well on this hardware because it's designed for some super-fast custom console hardware. Secondly, if last gen and this gen are anything to go by most devs won't give a jack about this special sauce. Just look at the CELL where devs never bothered to spend time optimizing for it or the half floats in the PRO as another example. We have no guarantees devs will suddenly spend time optimizing for this hardware when history has shown they never did so before.

Microsoft sacrificed CU count in the X1 because of the "secret sauce" ESRAM which turned out to be meaningless. I'm not saying this tech will take up die space but it could effect the BOM.


I hope it's something like StoreMI and not really an expensive custom solution.
When it comes to the Cell devs didn't know how to optimise for it because it's vastly different than any other system on the market lol. Take it this way, one dev team had to took hours to find out how to even turn it on at first.

Come to think of it, Sony first party games can probably use it better than MS first party devs considering that MS is looking to also release their games on the PC.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,390
Yup,ImgTec sold to some Chinese fund,ARM to that Japanese SoftBank guy...really baffles me that UK government allowed that.US or any other European gov. would block those sales.
At least we can say that the licensing extends beyond architecture and goes to patents as well. Apple is basically using their GPU architecture without fear of reprisal, so it seems unlikely they’d be the main customer here. It wouldn’t be surprising if this was a sign of AMD adopting it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8
Ah, thank you for the informative read. So in retrospect, my initial position of requesting that the next gen Xbox should address this issue does not seem unrealistic if, provided MS coughs up the dough, it has a bare bones OS stored in a separate and embedded NAND chip.
It's a fair request, but if they are going SSD then it becomes more complex as a minimum performance will be required. The current gen have very generic laptop HDDs, it would be hard to replace them with something all that worse, next gen hopefully that will not the be the case at all.

As a snide side remark god only knows how slow the Xbox is would be to reinstall, ;) it was pretty slow on first setup but in retrospect it would only need a bootloader of sorts of we assume an internet connection is required to update the OS.

It would be nice but I hope they work on the awful game install times and slow dash before worrying about HDD swaps. If they can do that as well it's a good bonus that nobody would say no to
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,423
formasymphonic Talking about blazing fast storage solutions, I wanted to digress for a moment to that Spiderman GDC talk. Having watched the conference in its entirety, starting from the topic of Asset Duplication slide onward, the presenter talked a lot of disc space, which I took to be, BD. Later he was talking about the bandwidth for streaming data off of the disc (and its rotational speed and seek times)-

Now, what I am confused about is why is anything other than cutscenes being streamed from the disc? I was under the impression that games on BD are still pretty much copied on to the internal storage and that the disc is simply needed as a check of authenticity to run the game.
Remember that nothing runs off the disc this gen. Discs are actually kind of pointless after first use, as everything runs off the HDD. The size of the disc though is still a problem because no one really wants to have to ship a game on multiple discs if they don't have to. The duplication of assets is to reduce the seek time as the game needs to find where they are stored on the HDD.

eg — rather than have one central location (on disc) where say, a fire hydrant or a type of bush is stored, every zone where a one is needed has its own bush/fire hyrdrant and they LoD as Spidey is within the 3-zone proximity like the video shows (with additional detail textures loading depending on how far you are from the ground etc). Its just faster for them to pull a file that is already in a section that the game is looking in.

The way he worded it was confusing though.
 

i-Lo

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
7,833
Not America
It's a fair request, but if they are going SSD then it becomes more complex as a minimum performance will be required. The current gen have very generic laptop HDDs, it would be hard to replace them with something all that worse, next gen hopefully that will not the be the case at all.

As a snide side remark god only knows how slow the Xbox is would be to reinstall, ;) it was pretty slow on first setup but in retrospect it would only need a bootloader of sorts of we assume an internet connection is required to update the OS.

It would be nice but I hope they work on the awful game install times and slow dash before worrying about HDD swaps. If they can do that as well it's a good bonus that nobody would say no to
Fair enough pertaining to the new performance baseline requirements if the storage is indeed divided into a non removable primary and removable secondary SSD storage.

And yea, completely agreed on the OS operation speed. At times, on the X, it absolutely chugs. Furthermore, it is egregious in comparison to my Pro (and my laptop) both of which are running Samsung Evo SSDs. For a while I have been contemplating whether buying a regular SSD (now that prices are plummeting, even in Canada) and bolt it to an USB 3.0 compatible enclosure.

Remember that nothing runs off the disc this gen. Discs are actually kind of pointless after first use, as everything runs off the HDD. The size of the disc though is still a problem because no one really wants to have to ship a game on multiple discs if they don't have to. The duplication of assets is to reduce the seek time as the game needs to find where they are stored on the HDD.

eg — rather than have one central location (on disc) where say, a fire hydrant or a type of bush is stored, every zone where a one is needed has its own bush/fire hyrdrant and they LoD as Spidey is within the 3-zone proximity like the video shows (with additional detail textures loading depending on how far you are from the ground etc). Its just faster for them to pull a file that is already in a section that the game is looking in.

The way he worded it was confusing though.
Yep, that's what I thought. Thank you for the clarification.
 
May 19, 2018
383
850 EVO is/was great for its time! As prices are going down on SSDs at a consumer level, the cost is minimal for SATA and NVMe (SATA still cheaper) is what I was getting at for current tech. My guess is that going a specialized or even NVMe route of SSD probably won't be a huge factor vs a SATA SSD solution.
The big question is how much of their allocated budget will this tech take up. I'm all for fast storage solutions (hence why I bought an SSD myself) but I would prefer the money I'd be spending on the console (at lets say $500) is going towards the absolute best CPU/GPU possible with those taking priority rather than, for example, CU count being reduced as a trade-off since the companies want super-fast SSD tech rather than using standard NVMe tech. You can't realistically push for the best visuals and RT whilst simultaneously limiting yourself from the best GPU hardware within your budget because your spending money on super-fast storage over a more capable GPU for RT.
That is, of course, unless Sony are willing to go for the absolute best GPU possible (e.g. 60 CU part) as well as this tech and are going to take a hit on every unit sold e.g. similar to what they did with the PS3 which was a $300 loss per unit IIRC.

When it comes to the Cell devs didn't know how to optimise for it because it's vastly different than any other system on the market lol. Take it this way, one dev team had to took hours to find out how to even turn it on at first.

Come to think of it, Sony first party games can probably use it better than MS first party devs considering that MS is looking to also release their games on the PC.
Without a doubt the first party devs will do wonders with the consoles and extract the best from them. The real deal is in the multiplats though and if devs are willing to take advantage of this tech if it really is special sauce tier that no other platform has.
 
Jan 20, 2019
904
Sony have said they believe in a big traditional leap.
PS4's will be treated like the PS3 was.
I think they will go $399 to be competitive to both ms sku's. I don't think they will want to leave such a big gap price between PS5 + lockhart. It just does not make sense from a business point of view.
The PS5 is not gonna be affected by the Lockart and they are not gonna change their plan because of it, if they are going for the 499€ they are not gonna change to 399 just because of the lockart. Your business point is also wrong, because the lockart will not affect the ps5 sales.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,027
He talked about HDD, not BD.
Indeed. Spidersman is streaming so much from the hard drive, that they had to use spinning disc tricks (like using duplicates to minimise seeking) to speed it up. Then they had to remove a lot of the duplicates to fit on a BD again. It's a great talk, I thoroughly reccomend it.

So yes, that SSD comparison was already against a HDD.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,423
Devs for a start would have to target the lowest common denominator which is going to be PC gamers who will still be using conventional HDD or slower SSD than "secret sauce" SSD tech, and they aren't going to make a game which won't run well on this hardware because it's designed for some super-fast custom console hardware.
It's going to be interesting to see what a high base level for next-gen consoles does for PC requirements. PC's will of course always have the higher ceiling but the median & base requirements will definitely have to rise in time. During the cross-gen portion of the era, yes you are right that they will still have to make allowances for lower spec hardware. But thats no different from what we see every gen any way. its only really about 2-3 years in that we start seeing what new hardware can really do and get pushed beyond what existing hardware is capable of.

However first & second parties will be able to push the boundaries much earlier / much further than third parties will. We shouldn't write them off just yet.

Indeed. Spidersman is streaming so much from the hard drive, that they had to use spinning disc tricks (like using duplicates to minimise seeking) to speed it up. Then they had to remove a lot of the duplicates to fit on a BD again. It's a great talk, I thoroughly reccomend it.

So yes, that SSD comparison was already against a HDD.
Yeh Its crazy to think about the levels a modern AAA game has to go to to make things feasible. At one point in the vid, he mentions that they had to have like 400 copies of the same bush in different places on the disk.
 
Mar 17, 2018
3,002
The PS5 is not gonna be affected by the Lockart and they are not gonna change their plan because of it, if they are going for the 499€ they are not gonna change to 399 just because of the lockart. Your business point is also wrong, because the lockart will not affect the ps5 sales.
Of course it will.. They'll all affect eachothers sales because they're competitors.
 
Jan 20, 2019
904
Of course it will.. They all affect eachothers sales because they're competitors.
No, it won't and that is not what the user sugest.

The user sugest that Sony needs to go for 399 because of the lockart and that is not true because like i said, the lockhart will not affect the ps5 sales if one is 299 and the other 499.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,423
Anything less than 16Gb Lockhard and 24Gb Anaconda/PS5 would be a huge disappointment. Even then it's the smallest RAM leap of any generation.
More RAM would be great but high-speed SSD can offset some of that though. There's definitely less need to hold as much as you can in memory when you can just find/read what you need significantly faster than on a HDD.
 
Jan 10, 2019
269
Didn't Brad sams say that Lockhart has half gpu and half ram of anaconda ?
Half the RAM would, I think, make it much more difficult to run next gen games - especially when we're talking open world stuff. Half GPU and 16Gb would be something I could imagine, but half RAM would mean it has the same RAM as the XBX, and probably something similar in TFLOPS (6-7).

So is Lockhart just an XBX with Zen 2 instead of Jaguar then?
 
Mar 17, 2018
3,002
No, it won't and that is not what the user sugest.

The user sugest that Sony needs to go for 399 because of the lockart and that is not true because like i said, the lockhart will not affect the ps5 sales if one is 299 and the other 499.
A competitor that offers an extremely similar product at a lower price point is going to affect the sales of your product.
 

i-Lo

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
7,833
Not America
The real question when it comes to RAM, is how much is actually usable for games and whether either or both manufacturers rely on a separate pool of RAM for OS for specific operations (which I think the PS4Pro does but I might be mistaken).
 
May 19, 2018
383
It's going to be interesting to see what a high base level for next-gen consoles does for PC requirements. PC's will of course always have the higher ceiling but the median & base requirements will definitely have to rise in time. During the cross-gen portion of the era, yes you are right that they will still have to make allowances for lower spec hardware. But thats no different from what we see every gen any way. its only really about 2-3 years in that we start seeing what new hardware can really do and get pushed beyond what existing hardware is capable of.

However first & second parties will be able to push the boundaries much earlier / much further than third parties will. We shouldn't write them off just yet.



Yeh Its crazy to think about the levels a modern AAA game has to go to to make things feasible. At one point in the vid, he mentions that they had to have like 400 copies of the same bush in different places on the disk.
Yeah it'll be interesting to see how game development progresses with the new hardware, however the fact of the reality is 3rd party developers won't put in the same work as Naughty Dog or 343i. That's why I'm really sceptical when it comes to exclusive secret sauce technology. The questions we have to ask are, will 3rd party developers take advantage of this tech? Is it easy to take advantage of? If not, is the cost that went into this tech worth it for the end user?
 
Mar 17, 2018
3,002
God...
You competitor going for a cheaper product, is not gonna affect your sales to the point were you need to lauch a product cheaper to stay competitve.
A $200 price difference would be massive. This isn't about saying competitive. Of course Sony will be competitive and will most likely sell more units than Xbox.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
1,423
I wonder what xox user will think when lockhart with gpu with less tf's will have nextgen games and xox won't.
MS' marketing for Lock & Ana will juts have to emphasise how important CPU & SSD (+ whatever secret sauce they use) are. Also for the first 2 years there will be plenty of cross gen games anyways.

MS also probably doesn't see the type of user that went to a 1X over a 1S as ever going for a Lockheart anyway. Anaconda is going to be marketed as the upgrade path for them.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,552
Half the RAM would, I think, make it much more difficult to run next gen games - especially when we're talking open world stuff. Half GPU and 16Gb would be something I could imagine, but half RAM would mean it has the same RAM as the XBX, and probably something similar in TFLOPS (6-7).

So is Lockhart just an XBX with Zen 2 instead of Jaguar then?
I had missed that info, but, well, in that case, 12 GB of GDDR6 (or half Anaconda ram) for Lockhart would be definitly bad for next gen multiplat games. They'll always be restrained by limited memory, until the end of the gen, like Jaguar CPUs was the constant bottleneck of this generation.

Lockhart would then also be the limiting factor of MS own first party games. They'd always design their big games (Halo, Forza) with that memory limitation: 9GB for games (using 12 GB case), not more.

And ironically, in that hypothetical scenario, Lockhart would mean Sony first party games would shine even more comparatively. More so than during the PS4 gen.

But I can't believe MS would do that mistake (Lockhart having half the memory of Anaconda) for next gen, for their own sake.
 
Oct 30, 2017
400
My theory is a hybrid HDD and SSD, with the SSD being kinda hardwired to the RAM. Some kind of custom solution for how they communicate that allows for a faster SSD system that plug in and out SSDs on PC can’t achieve.
So you could swap out the HDD for more space but the SSD would straight up be ‘welded down to metal’ so to speak for very fast transfers of data.

(I’m also imagining some custom Sony software solution that allows games to store some basic upfront info on the SSD for all the games you have on the console. So you can start playing while it hot-swaps some of the data from the HDD for the rest of the game. Kinda like how you were suppose to be able to play a game on PS4/X1 before they were done installing... but better and actually work. But hey I’m just making crap up.)
This is almost exactly what I think it’ll be, even your second paragraph lol. I’ve been saying “SSD” + HDD since that Wired article...


This. The Wired article never stated that it was NVMe for PS5. It talked about improvements to the raw speeds, I/O mechanisms (this is huge IMO), and software stack. This to me hints that this custom SSD could possibly proprietary, or just something not on the market yet. However, that software stack is Sony's own customization.
Can you imagine if it’s NVRAM/3D XPoint 😳? It’s my biggest hope (dream) lol. I think I’ve read that it’s not that much more expensive than regular SSDs per GB..
 
Feb 10, 2018
10,991
The PS5 is not gonna be affected by the Lockart and they are not gonna change their plan because of it, if they are going for the 499€ they are not gonna change to 399 just because of the lockart. Your business point is also wrong, because the lockart will not affect the ps5 sales.
Lol you just say "you're wrong" without giving any reasons or explanations why.

But I will give some more reasons why lockhart will effect a $499 PS5, people wanting a next gen console to play the latest elder Scrolls or call of duty but with limited funds will choose the lockhart over the ps5 because of price in some circumstances.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
3,067
Germany
Oct 27, 2017
5
The fun of last gen relived, console wars, arthur gies with bad info

joking aside, does anyone know how we got to 2 names on the dev kit for scarlett?
i think klobrille "2 sku slide" and hmqgg possibly mentioned "Dante" but team thurott has "Danta", though I could be mis-remembering
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,030
The fun of last gen relived, console wars, arthur gies with bad info

joking aside, does anyone know how we got to 2 names on the dev kit for scarlett?
i think klobrille "2 sku slide" and hmqgg possibly mentioned "Dante" but team thurott has "Danta", though I could be mis-remembering
He said Danta but gotta be Dante, for Dante Alighieri (the original Dante after who all Dantes used to be named for :P)
 
Feb 10, 2018
10,991
No, it won't and that is not what the user sugest.

The user sugest that Sony needs to go for 399 because of the lockart and that is not true because like i said, the lockhart will not affect the ps5 sales if one is 299 and the other 499.
$399 + more powerful is more attractive to the budget next gen gamer, then $499 + even more powerful, compared to a $299 lockhart.

In UK there's a big difference between £249 + £449
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,423
I'm watching a GDC vid on procedural IK animations from one of the technical art directors from Ubisoft, and about half way through it he's talking about using ray casing ahead of a character for them to read terrain and adjust their animations accordingly.


Its pretty good video overall, but the brief mentions of ray casting caught my interest. The basic idea is that a lot of gameplay animations are designed around an integer state (eg standing, crouching, prone) and can't account for anything in between that [23:44 onwards]. So conversely level design is affected, ceilings have to be a certain height, doors have to be a certain width etc and the times when you see something other than that are probably just mocapped animation transitions.

It would be really interested to see if any of this supposed RT hardware gets applied to things other than obvious applications like graphics / audio. Hypothetically then whatever general compute RT support both consoles have could be functional rather than visual, while dedicated hardware RT could provide support for visuals / audio as well?
 
Oct 27, 2017
677
The fun of last gen relived, console wars, arthur gies with bad info

joking aside, does anyone know how we got to 2 names on the dev kit for scarlett?
i think klobrille "2 sku slide" and hmqgg possibly mentioned "Dante" but team thurott has "Danta", though I could be mis-remembering
Reading this like I do political news stories, Arthur Gies is definitely the "one very reliable source" and nobody's running his rumor.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,004
Seattle, WA
The fun of last gen relived, console wars, arthur gies with bad info

joking aside, does anyone know how we got to 2 names on the dev kit for scarlett?
i think klobrille "2 sku slide" and hmqgg possibly mentioned "Dante" but team thurott has "Danta", though I could be mis-remembering
Was two weeks, but this was before the PS5 4chan / reddit leaks explosion.
 
Mar 24, 2018
130
I had missed that info, but, well, in that case, 12 GB of GDDR6 (or half Anaconda ram) for Lockhart would be definitly bad for next gen multiplat games. They'll always be restrained by limited memory, until the end of the gen, like Jaguar CPUs was the constant bottleneck of this generation.

Lockhart would then also be the limiting factor of MS own first party games. They'd always design their big games (Halo, Forza) with that memory limitation: 9GB for games (using 12 GB case), not more.

And ironically, in that hypothetical scenario, Lockhart would mean Sony first party games would shine even more comparatively. More so than during the PS4 gen.

But I can't believe MS would do that mistake (Lockhart having half the memory of Anaconda) for next gen, for their own sake.
If we are lucky, they'll be using a 14nm I/O die. It would allow them to have 12GB GDDR6 and 4GB DDR4 if they wanted.
Adding a DDR4 controller to the 14nm I/O die probably wouldn't raise the cost by too much.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,557
Can you imagine if it’s NVRAM/3D XPoint 😳? It’s my biggest hope (dream) lol. I think I’ve read that it’s not that much more expensive than regular SSDs per GB..
That would be amazing. No hints to a manufacturer or speeds. Gonna be exciting to see what the storage solution is and what it is capable of!
 
Nov 16, 2017
233
$399 + more powerful is more attractive to the budget next gen gamer, then $499 + even more powerful, compared to a $299 lockhart.

In UK there's a big difference between £249 + £449
I don't know many budget gamers that are also early adopters. They'll be probably sitting on their ps4/xbx playing the same shared-gen titles we'll be playing on newer hardware. They know the great stuff isn't coming til 2-3 years into the life of the console.
 
Feb 10, 2018
10,991
It's going to be very interesting to see digital foundry of lockhart, PS5 and Anaconda comparisons.

People like to make 1080p out to be PS1 graphics. But I just finished gears 4 and I chose to run it at 1080p 60fps and it still looked fantastic on my 50 inch 4ktv.

The x1s/ps4 + pro/1x installbase split, show the majority of people are perfectly happy with 1080p.