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Overall maximum teraflops for next-gen launch consoles?

  • 8 teraflops

    Votes: 43 1.9%
  • 9 teraflops

    Votes: 56 2.4%
  • 12 teraflops

    Votes: 978 42.5%
  • 14 teraflops

    Votes: 525 22.8%
  • Team ALL THE WAY UP +14 teraflops

    Votes: 491 21.3%
  • 10 teraflops (because for some reason I put 9 instead of 10)

    Votes: 208 9.0%

  • Total voters
    2,301
Status
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Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
The actual wording is even more wolly than that!

"The same team that delivered unprecedented performance with Xbox One X is deep in to architecting the next Xbox consoles, where we will once again deliver on our commitment to set the benchmark for console gaming."
All this MS didn't say this or that is beginning to sound like damage control. Its not like everyone started saying next xbox will be more powerful for no reason.

What you quoted was said after the 1X and even referenced the 1X. They also clearly said "one again (referring to the one X) set the benchmark....."

The whole world didn't just suddenly become stupid overnight and there is a reason why everyone thinks/assumes MS is set to make the most powerful console. Its all about their messaging. So please lets not pretend that anyone that listens to what MS has said would somehow be wrong to think MS is setting out to make the most powerful console.

Don't get me wrong, I am and have always been an advocate of this not necessarily being the case, I have suggested that MS plans to match the PS5 in power and price but their real trump card being that they will have an S model at launch too. I Have said all MS has to do is clock either their CPU+GPU by 100Mhz more than whatever sony's clocks are ad they would have met any "we are more powerful than them" obligations.
 

Bradbatross

Member
Mar 17, 2018
14,219
Isnt that the same scenario right now ? mS has the cheapest and most powerful consoles and their sales for last year has been their lowest ever doing around 7 million in 12 month span.on top of that many people like me are anchorned to a platform due to stupid digital games .we shall see how it plays out
Right now is at the end of a gen, and consoles are only part of the equation. Games, perceived value and brand image are extremely important also. Next gen is a fresh start, and MS are setting themselves up to nail every part of the equation.
 
Nov 11, 2017
2,744
Isnt that the same scenario right now ? mS has the cheapest and most powerful consoles and their sales for last year has been their lowest ever doing around 7 million in 12 month span.on top of that many people like me are anchorned to a platform due to stupid digital games .we shall see how it plays out
This generation was decided in 2013-2014.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
And it's a bad idea. The exact same scenario we have now, except people will already be tied up and will have even less of a motivation to jump ships, as most people buying next gen consoles are already tied up into Sony's ecosystem.

They only true differentiating factor would be the Streambox, but for whatever reason they're not launching with it, which doesn't bode well for said Streambox. Either the technology is not ready, or the market isn't
Why do people rate ecosystem so much? Or digital games? You lose none by moving from one platform to the other. Digital games are still the minority of sales, and even then, there are people that left behind their Xbox 360 digital purchases to move to the PS4, left their gamerscore behind too. This is about as much as those things matter.

Sony sold over three times the consoles Microsoft and Nintendo (combined) sold in the PS2 generation. The very next generation they lagged behind the Wii and sold more than Xbox 360, but not what was expected at the start of the generation.

The very next Nintendo console bombed, and those guys that had moved to the 360 mainly bolted back to PS4. The Switch which comes after the Wii U is the fastest selling console. In short, prior to pre-orders going live, everyone has zero sales.That lack of motivation to jump ship that people so often talk about is something that happens more often than not. The one generation it did not happen was the PS1 moving to the PS2, and for a lot of reasons, some having to do with Sony, some with Nintendo and Microsoft's timing, but mostly to do with the price drop that came a year in IIRC and lack of third party support for the GameCube and Xbox.

I also do not know why people think that different pricing models are a bad thing. They are one of the best things to happen in commerce and have been common place for eons. Sony had two models last generation an iterated on HDD space, same as Microsoft. Sony has two models i.e. base console and Pro, Microsoft has base, S, X and SAD, three being in the market. You pick and choose what fits your pocket. Choice has never, and will never be a bad thing when it comes to consumerism.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
If that were to happen, then the same reasoning applies.

Sony would not want to compete at the highest end because they think that price would be an issue thus go for a middle of the road product to attract people in.

Microsoft keeps the high end for the enthusiasts, and the low end for price discrimination. The exact same reasoning applies. You are pricing the product at the price you think it can sell......the lower powered model is simply there to try and undercut Sony on price. That is the sole reason for its existence.

Right. And I haven't disagreed with that necessarily.

Where I'm going with my point is that the market is not an even playing field going into next gen. Sony has an inherent advantage due to being the market leader this generation and having a much more popular brand world wide (Xbox is only relevant in a handful of markets).

Thus, I'm not saying that Xbox Lockhart at $299 isn't going to be an attactive option. It simply doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Lockhart is extremely appealing if it's $299 and PS5, the only product offered by the competitor, is $499. That's a $200 gap in pricing.

If Lockhart is $299 and PS5 is $399, that appeal diminishes. Pricing matters yes, and that's why a competitors product at a closer price point backed by a strong brand and presumably stronger specs than the Lockhart diminishes that appeal. You aren't deciding between a 1080p $299 box vs a $499 4k box, now it's between a $299 1080p box vs a $399 4k box. The appeal diminishes by virtue or the competition's pricing.

Note, I didn't say eliminate. I said diminishes. And that's my point. $299 is extremely appealing... in a vacuum. But it's appeal is determined by competitor pricing.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
True .I was just making a point to his claim that base power is the only thing that matters and whoever doesn't have it will be upset.i was not confirming what he was saying .I was just giving an example to show his stance doesn't make sense

You're saying the people who own the console with the weakest base console will be upset?
 

Sekiro

Member
Jan 25, 2019
2,938
United Kingdom
Last month, in this very thread, didn't someone say that there's been talks of the PS5 Dev Kits releasing about a month after GDC 2019?

Maybe thats why Sony gave us that Wired interview out of the blue, roughly a month after GDC, to stay ahead of the curve before the real leaks release in the coming weeks leading up to E3.
 

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,399
Last month, in this very thread, didn't someone say that there's been talks of the PS5 Dev Kits releasing about a month after GDC 2019?

Maybe thats why Sony gave us that Wired interview out of the blue, roughly a month after GDC, to stay ahead of the curve before the real leaks release in the coming weeks leading up to E3.
cerny confimed they are sending many more dev kits starting the day after interview. so they got ahead of leaks i guess
 

Deleted member 30005

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
305
"unprecedented performance" makes the context rather clear.

"Unprecedented performance" is a reference to the Xbox One X. A console that was delivered 1 year later than the competition with an additional $100 price tag.

People adducing the X as guarantee should remember the PS4 Pro satisfied a modest design goal and was never intended to be all-conquering; the first paragraph of the Wired article is not coincidental.

Microsoft's job would be made easier if Sony would roll over and surrender the high-ground to Xbox, perhaps that was the point of puffing their feathers at E3 so early, but something tells me Sony are not going to make things easy. Microsoft might be forced to reconsider their own two-pronged approach or, as Saint-14 succinctly put it:
they [Microsoft] could find themselves in a situation where the low end offering is too weak and the high end is too expensive.
Assuming the two-pronged strategy is genuine and not a bluff.

The biggest defining factor for both teams is the value proposition. Securing parts as efficiently and cheaply as possible. Making gains so that the budget can allow for other expenses elsewhere. Smart designs. That's what puts a smile on your face at the end of the day. Here's a product that offers superb value for money.
 
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Dave.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,153
All this MS didn't say this or that is beginning to sound like damage control. Its not like everyone started saying next xbox will be more powerful for no reason.

What you quoted was said after the 1X and even referenced the 1X. They also clearly said "one again (referring to the one X) set the benchmark....."

The whole world didn't just suddenly become stupid overnight and there is a reason why everyone thinks/assumes MS is set to make the most powerful console. Its all about their messaging. So please lets not pretend that anyone that listens to what MS has said would somehow be wrong to think MS is setting out to make the most powerful console.

Don't get me wrong, I am and have always been an advocate of this not necessarily being the case, I have suggested that MS plans to match the PS5 in power and price but their real trump card being that they will have an S model at launch too. I Have said all MS has to do is clock either their CPU+GPU by 100Mhz more than whatever sony's clocks are ad they would have met any "we are more powerful than them" obligations.

If you think it's "damage control" to state the exact words used by Phil, I disagree. This is the entirety of their official messaging regarding next gen so far, unless I've missed something - and if so, I'd appreciate a link.

Everything else is speculation, "leaks" and "insiders".
 
Nov 12, 2017
2,877
But next gen base xbx (lokhart)is for sure weaker than base ps5 .by almost around 100%-300% weaker .and that will be the main selling Xbox .

at this point you are deliberately playing with words:).
it is not so complicated to understand what is the point of releasing two consoles at the same time as the launch.
If you want the console that costs less but that takes you to the next generation .. it is called Lockhart ... it will be a product for those who are price sensitive and certainly not aiming for the enthusiast market.

If for you instead the price is not a problem and you want to have the maximum that the market offers you ... here is Anaconda.
Last generation, microsoft has found itself with the most expensive console that offered also less performance.A bad position to keep .. and although the X has changed the perception (but obviously not the sales .... being a product intended for the enthusiast market) of the brand for the better being an iteration arrived late could not help much. This time, however, they will offer a product for both the ..low-end and high-end markets...already from the start of the gen ...at least apparently from the continuous rumors.
So I don't understand your point
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
Neither the 1X nor the PS4Pro were possible at the start of this gen. So I see it as a fool's errand to try and have the mid gen upgrade right at the start.

But my disagreement with the 2sku plan is well known. And now we get to see if MS succeed or fail with it. It is certainly too late for them to change course in any case.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
Neither the 1X nor the PS4Pro were possible at the start of this gen. So I see it as a fool's errand to try and have the mid gen upgrade right at the start.

But my disagreement with the 2sku plan is well known. And now we get to see if MS succeed or fail with it. It is certainly too late for them to change course in any case.
We're also going to have a much harder time getting a meaningful mid-gen update this time around unless they're willing to go multi-GPU chiplet and grow the power budget.
 

Deleted member 5764

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,574
I'm more optimistic about the multi-sku approach for Xbox than most. Until it gets announced, all the objections against that model seem too obvious for Microsoft to have not considered them at all.

I don't buy into the 1080p vs 4K box approach though. Both Lockhart and Anaconda will absolutely be 4K machines. The difference would have to be in implementation.
 

JINX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,473
I've only heard Richard from Digital Foundary comment the rumor saying he believes it being true. Where does the rumor come from in the beginning?
A reddit leak that was clearly fanboy nonsense (mentioned the acquisition of Platinum lol.)

windows central i think.then it was debunked then it returned after Richard said thats what he has heard
Windows Central was the one that said Lockheart was comparable to the X.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,068
Pretty sure the idea behind the 2 SKU model is to do what the Switch does when going between docked and handheld. The cheaper, lower end one would run the same games, but at a lower resolution and with some settings paired back. I would have to imagine the CPU and RAM would be the same.
So for instance a game might be 4K on the higher end model with graphics the same as the PS5 version, while on the lower end model it'd be 1080p or so. It wouldn't be holding anything back, it would just do the same games at a lower res.
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
I'm more optimistic about the multi-sku approach for Xbox than most. Until it gets announced, all the objections against that model seem too obvious for Microsoft to have not considered them at all.
Well, we have the XB1S All Digital Edition, showing that MS would still make a mistake on something so obvious. The SAD is suppose to be a loss-leader, that was the only way that machine was ever going to be accepted. But someone in Microsoft had other ideas and insisted that 50 dollar discount is the most they would be willing to give up.

Just because MS considered the problems, doesn't mean MS had solved them.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,068
No they wouldn't if they aimed at 4K.
Xbox One X already has to make sacrifices to reach 4k, that is, when it reaches native 4k.

A lot of people here underestimate the cost of 4k.
Yeah, 4K is pretty expensive, and it's only going to be more expensive next gen as graphics get better and not everyone really cares about 4K. It totally makes sense for MS to do a cheaper model that has just enough grunt to do the same games as the more expensive model and the PS5, but at 900p-1080p.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
You missed the point of the post entirely. Vega chips will use a mere fraction of the lower spec HBM2 chips available. The focus for Sony -- who would look to sign supply contracts 2-3 years in advance (i.e. more than enough time to bring on new capacity) -- is new production capacity; which would have been cost prohibitive for foundries to invest in without large volume orders from customers like Sony.

There's probably a good chance that with HBM production moving to HBM3 in 2020 for their HPC customers, Sony will be looking to get HBM3 in PS5, as within 18 months from when HBM3 starts shipping, most of the demand will be for HBM3, thus Sony being able to leverage that by taking lower spec binned parts means only great things for their console. Also, from a system design perspective, HBM3 can simply drop in, the same way the double density GDDR5 chips did with PS4 with the late confirmation of supply for Sony and late change leading to the announcement at the PS Meeting.

If MS is looking to use HBM too, it makes the situation even better. Higher volume orders overall will justify the aggressive investment in new production capacity.
Yeah, I got your post. You are claiming that Sony by it self will drive HBM prices down by well over 50%. Highly unrealistic.

So how about something more realistic? Let's use Occam's razor for a second and go with the simplest solution, gddr6 cost less than 50% of HBM2 and will provide them with higher bandwidth if they are using a 256 bit bus. So it's cheaper and faster to go with GDDR6. So sure, let's go with the weird and expensive setup and try to drive the whole HBM2 market down by over 50%.

Yes. (Despite what some in here will try to argue)
Nope, despite what some in here will try to argue. This weird claim that somehow next-gen games will suddenly use like 40% of the GPU for non-pixel based calculations is detached from reality. As long as they have enough buffer everything will be just fine.
 
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bsigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,556
Well, we have the XB1S All Digital Edition, showing that MS would still make a mistake on something so obvious. The SAD is suppose to be a loss-leader, that was the only way that machine was ever going to be accepted. But someone in Microsoft had other ideas and insisted that 50 dollar discount is the most they would be willing to give up.

Just because MS considered the problems, doesn't mean MS had solved them.

The BOM for the UHD for the S is ~$30. There is not a significant reduction in costs by just removing the drive and once the system is officially avaiable, I would expect to see it reguarly at $199 and down to $149/169 for the holidays.
 

Bradbatross

Member
Mar 17, 2018
14,219
A reddit leak that was clearly fanboy nonsense (mentioned the acquisition of Platinum lol.)


Windows Central was the one that said Lockheart was comparable to the X.
It didn't though.. It mentioned a bunch of studios that MS were in talks with. It's not unreasonable to assume MS has been in talks with a lot of stuidos.. Most will lead nowhere, while only a select few will actually lead to acquisitions. That "leak" may have been BS, but that list of studios isn't really a good indication of that.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
5nm and 3nm node in 2023 will help with midgens to hit 19 to 20 TF
5nm power and density gains are very weak compared to previous node transitions. It is likely to have no clock speed growth.

3nm is even more uncertain because most of those processes are based on a new transistor topology which has yet to be proven for mass production. Same issues of clock speed likely present here.

Nothing is guaranteed.

Costs will also continue to rise with each new process.
 

Dant21

Member
Apr 24, 2018
842
5nm and 3nm node in 2023 will help with midgens to hit 19 to 20 TF
Big maybe, we have no idea if sub-7nm will provide significant density improvements or how much they may be delayed by. If I'm not mistaken, the 7nm already being used isn't EUV, and you have to be both EUV and GAAFET at least for 3nm. Only Samsung claims to have EUV in production right now, and word on any actually on market chips using it seems to be non existent.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,061
5nm power and density gains are very weak compared to previous node transitions. It is likely to have no clock speed growth.

3nm is even more uncertain because most of those processes are based on a new transistor topology which has yet to be proven for mass production. Same issues of clock speed likely present here.

Nothing is guaranteed.

And if you manage to squeak in with a 5/3nm refresh - what are you leaving on the table for next-next gen? Could really be painting yourself into a corner
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
And if you manage to squeak in with a 5/3nm refresh - what are you leaving on the table for next-next gen? Could really be painting yourself into a corner
IF.

Big maybe, we have no idea if sub-7nm will provide significant density improvements or how much they may be delayed by. If I'm not mistaken, the 7nm already being used isn't EUV, and you have to be both EUV and GAAFET at least for 3nm. Only Samsung claims to have EUV in production right now, and word on any actually on market chips using it seems to be non existent.

TSMC is in production for 7nm+. We will likely see it on iPhones this Fall.
 

JINX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,473
Read it again. It mentioned a bunch of studios that MS were in talks with. It's not unreasonable to assume MS has been in talks with a lot of stuidos.. Most will lead nowhere, while only a select few will actually lead to acquisitions. That "leak" may have been BS, but that list of studios isn't really a good indication of that.
Platinum in negotiations with MS after Scalebound.... you have got to be kidding?

Negotiation = "discussion aimed at reaching an agreement."
 
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gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
5nm and 3nm node in 2023 will help with midgens to hit 19 to 20 TF
The only reason we had a mid generation console this time was because 4K TV's were now affordable, there was content out for them. It was not as if it was new.

Why would you be putting resources into a next gen, mid gen refresh? It is not as if 8K will be mainstream or close to becoming that.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
Think Turtlerock should go to MS. It's a good fit.

Keep Bluepoint away from being a first party studio please. I need Playstation remasters.
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
The BOM for the UHD for the S is ~$30. There is not a significant reduction in costs by just removing the drive and once the system is officially avaiable, I would expect to see it reguarly at $199 and down to $149/169 for the holidays.
The point is that as a loss-leader, the fact that the removal of the drive doesn't save any money is not the point. The focus of SAD should have been gaining users and to milk them dry with expensive digital gamers later. This means ignoring production costs and instead focus on what a consumer is willing to pay instead. $200 should be the starting price and go lower than that on sale. MS is clearly not willing to make that commitment, hence the 250 MSRP that was insane and harm its image as a budget machine.

An all-digital machine isn't cheap at all, considering how expensive its games are. So MS should have tried to deceive by under-pricing the machine to sucker in the ignorant. But they failed to do even that.
 

Kaako

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,736
"Hey, let's forget about our very recent shitshow together. We'd like to put it behind us by offering to buy your studio now, thanks."
 
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